Kiwi pilot shortage

[ARPs]

Pack your bags!!!

Why wait in NZ for this pilot shortage when the rest of the world is crying for pilots, even guys with 300hrs TT!!!

Pick up your balls and head across the ditch atleast!!!

I set sail in Feb 07 and within 2 weeks I had a job flying a C208B IFR single pilot with better T&C's than what eagle pay there F/O's when they start out, then I get to move onto a Kingair C90!!! And I only had 800 hours TT at the time! Im now doing around 85 hours per month and its all in good gear!!!

Sure the NZ pilot rush might come but you will never earn the $$ in GA in NZ compared to overseas!!

ARPs

[YAX]

Very good point,

Noticed on AFAP today advertising for chieftain drivers, 500 tt and 50 on type. I guess most kiwi's want to be based back "home" but at the end of the day Auzzie will always be the better option for twin drivers. I have good mate's in Bott's with 3000tt,yea sure, they might have single turbine but these days what does that matter??? I'm going back to the land of the long white cloud in a couple of months to renew medical etc.... anyone willing to offer me a job cleaning toilets? trust me it's more money than i'm on now

[Humber10]

Well Raro, you hit the nail on the head, narrow minded is the Kiwi way.... sad but true, there are heaps of guys O/S that could bring a heap of experience back to NZ. Unfortunately the folk in NZ might be a little scared you might teach them something....50 NZ IFR, WTF?? NZ is not the only place in the world with bad weather... Keep trying, there seems to be alot of people in NZ with half your exeperience getting work, dont let that get to you, I'm sure if you persist you will get in, but you might be better off trying elsewhere where your experience will be appreciated... Dont bother with the smaller operators in NZ, you have too much experience, have you tried CX,QF, EVA etc? I wish you all the best, Good luck

[remoak]

Raropilot

I can see their concern in regards to recent IF in NZ

Well please explain it to me! NZ is one of the quietest aviation environments in the world, and the IFR environment is probably the easiest in the world. I'd love to know what is difficult about NZ IFR that you need 50 hours of it... even if you have 10,000 hours in the far more complex European IFR system.

Doesn't really matter to me, but it sucks for those who have been overseas and want to come back. Nothing more than small-minded discrimination by all the ex-aero club wallies that run Air Nelson.

There probably isn't a real shortage in NZ, but there is in Europe. We are currently looking for 146 pilots and we can't find any. Taking on guys with less than 1500 hours TT now. Bit different to NZ, eh?

[Cloud Cutter]

remoak, that's been done to death, mostly by you. Air Nelson is the only airline with any such requirement, and most of us agree it is dumb and serves no constructive purpose.

There are plenty of 737, and a few A320 jobs going for anyone who wants to come home. Of course you will have to swallow the reality of our below par pay rates, but this is something I expect to improve over the coming years (wishful thinking maybe).

As for the pilot shortage in NZ, it's all relative. I can see how pilots struggling to find their way out of GA would find this claim frustrating. I think we are beginning to see a shortage of experienced airline pilots, and this will continue (I believe this will drive a rationalisation of our pay and conditions if managed properly by pilot groups).

There doesn't seem to have been a marked increase in numbers coming through the flying schools and aero clubs over the past 5 years, and that would suggest it will continue to become easier for new pilots to find jobs. It's certainly better now that it's ever been since I've been in the industry.

Good luck to all those looking for that next big break, there's plenty happening and you'll get there if you persevere

[remoak]

There are plenty of 737, and a few A320 jobs going for anyone who wants to come home.

Really? Where?

[SkySurfin]

Remoak

Really? Where?

Pac Blue, Jetconnect and Jetstar..........

There probably isn't a real shortage in NZ, but there is in Europe. We are currently looking for 146 pilots and we can't find any. Taking on guys with less than 1500 hours TT now. Bit different to NZ, eh?

Guys are getting starts with Pac Blue, Jetconnect, Jetstar and Air New Zealand starting around 2000 hours TT, thats a big change from past years.

NZ is one of the quietest aviation environments in the world, and the IFR environment is probably the easiest in the world. I'd love to know what is difficult about NZ IFR that you need 50 hours of it

Who gives a whoop-dee-do who has busy and quiet airspace and about 50 hours IF....... if ONE company has a requirement for 50 hours IF, then sobeit, I cant see why you would give a rats anyway.
Seems to me whenever topics like this arsie you have a good whinge about it and break out with loads of sarcasm, whats your point.
Avaition opportunites for pilots in NZed are the best they have been in ages. Guys in NZd are making the most of this and good on them, they deserve too.

[Cloud Cutter]

Amen to that, well said

[kiwiblue]

Originally Posted by SkySufin'

Aviation opportunites for pilots in NZ are the best they have been in ages. Guys in NZ are making the most of this and good on them, they deserve to.

Well spoken SkySurfin'... there seems to be a more than a few die-hards around here, happier bemoaning their lot than getting off their arses and doing something about it, whether that be actually applying for a job (what a novel concept!!!) or ensuring that they do or are able to meet the well-publicised minimum requirements for employment. If they ain't prepared to do any of that, then I fail to see the point of incessant bitching and moaning in here. Quite frankly I've seen enough of it.

It ain't going to be handed to you on a plate kiddies. DO YOUR BIT!!!

[remoak]

Guys are getting starts with Pac Blue, Jetconnect, Jetstar and Air New Zealand starting around 2000 hours TT, thats a big change from past years.

Very, very few are achieving that - I am sure the number is single digits. Friends of the HR manager etc.

Avaition opportunites for pilots in NZed are the best they have been in ages. Guys in NZd are making the most of this and good on them, they deserve too.

Well you are only young and clearly don't get how the industry works. The small-minded approach that I mentioned is only one example of that sort of thinking, and it pervades the industry in NZ. What you don't get is that it actually severely limits opportunities for all NZ pilots (not just returning ones), but then you wouldn't understand that, having never seen how the industry works outside the narrow confines of NZ. People who have been overseas and have had their eyes opened find it hard to understand how the industry even survives in NZ, where it is more about who you know and the amount of sucking-up you are prepared to do than any sensible measure of performance.

But by all means do the lemming thing and look on the bright side. As you don't know any different, it won't bother you and you can happily join the queue for that nice shiny 1900 or whatever (which is the only likely position available to most of you). Hope the prospect makes you happy.

Those of us who have seen how the industry SHOULD work - from the useless CAA on downwards - will just shake our heads and feel sorry for you. If you could see how things COULD be in NZ, you wouldn't be so accepting of the crap forced upon you. It may be the best it has been for ages, but that still isn't good by world standards. Just look at the opportunities available to all the Indians currently filling NZ flying schools.

In the meantime I am still recruiting 146 pilots. No sucking-up required...

[glekichi]

I gotta agree... Every time a topic about NZ recruitment comes up somebody starts complaining about Air Nelson's 50hr requirement.

It gets tiring.

So what if they prefer training local piston pilots and giving them a shot at getting into turboprops without having to go hunting overseas? At least they are not one of the airlines that refuses to do any training and just looks for experienced pilots from elsewhere.

No... the pilot pool here is not so dry that they need to look overseas. Minimums are coming down, thats all.

[Cpt Link Hog]

Had a friend come back from overseas been flying King Air's spoke to ANSN got told the 50hr thing.......so went got a job in GA did 100 odd hours NZ IF called em up and interviewed and now working for them...Job done! it's not rocket science

[remoak]

No, it isn't rocket science. If you think it is reasonable to discriminate against other NZ pilots just because they went overseas for a while, using a completely spurious reason that has no basis at all in terms of defining ability or skill... and if you think it is fair that someone should have to go to all the trouble of finding another job in GA, which they will then leave as soon as they have the requirement, quite possibly screwing the operator they were using to get the hours... then yes, it is fine and dandy.

You can't discriminate against gays, ethnic minorities, or muslims... but it perfectly acceptable to discriminate against pilots who have worked overseas.

That's aviation in NZ. Not a level playing field in sight.

[nike]

Remoak,

what is you gig?

I could def understand your carry on if this Air Nelson thing was applicable to you, but with all your not so veiled refs to the glory you are currently apparently enjoying - it ain't.

So it then begs the question - to what end?

Not merely for the greater good? Surely ye jest, kind sir.

That last post, come on....... I guess I'll be looking for your name on the larbour party list next year for its not but just a soap box thy stands upon, its the whole farkn container load.

It really does just look like a dirty big chicken bone that got stuck, but hey, I'm usually more wrong than right.

[remoak]

but hey, I'm usually more wrong than right

No... I mustn't... I mustn't... but oh so tempting...!

The only reason I bother to mention the Air Nelson idiocy - other than the fact that there was nothing on the telly over here and I was bored - is that it needs to challenged.

As you say it doesn't affect me, I wouldn't even bother applying. I just think it sucks that enterprising Kiwis who head overseas find themselves penalised on their return, for absolutely no reason whatsoever. As I have mentioned before, the Chief Pilot at the time that this rule was introduced, told me to my face that it was designed to prevent "queue jumpers" getting back in after leap-frogging their contemporaries who stayed behind, instructed, and washed the Air Nelson Metros for nothing while brown-nosing every manager in sight.

Maybe you think that aviation should work that way. I don't. I believe recruitment should be based on experience, skill, and attitude, which is the way it works in more enlightened aviation environments.

Sadly, I now have to warn potential recruits from NZ of the downside of coming over here to aviation nirvana... that they may not be able to go back.

Many of the people who post here would do pretty much anything (legal) to procure that first job, or next rung up the ladder. When I was an instructor, there were a few who did some illegal things as well - such is the desperation that some feel. A hiring process that includes favoritism and discrimination will inevitably lead to all sorts of underhand dealings. When I was doing a type rating course for a NZ third-level operator that runs light turboprops a few years ago, I was amazed at how many people on the course had bought their way in, hoping that they would be noticed and offered something. The sucking-up was spectacular, to say the least. The operator was probably making more money out of speculative courses than he was out of flying.

What amazes me the most is that young pilots today don't understand that such practices disadvantage all aspiring pilots.

Anyway, if that is the system that you want, good luck.

BTW I am not enjoying any particular glory, just got lucky after many years in the game and am trying very hard to pass some opportunities on to Kiwi pilots, who generally have to wait a lot longer for such opportunities to come their way (if they ever do at all). It's called giving something back, which is what you do after many years in the airline game. Sadly, it is something the NZ CAA makes very difficult, but that is another thread.

So what is my gig? Trying to give something back to young NZ aviation, and expose b*llsh*t for what it is. No need to thank me.

But only when there's nothing on the telly...

[404 Titan]

While people may want to bag Remoak, no one has really given a good reason why Air Nelson has the recent 50 hours in country policy? Would someone like to answer that?

[SkySurfin]

Remoak

Well you are only young and clearly don't get how the industry works. The small-minded approach that I mentioned is only one example of that sort of thinking, and it pervades the industry in NZ. What you don't get is that it actually severely limits opportunities for all NZ pilots (not just returning ones), but then you wouldn't understand that, having never seen how the industry works outside the narrow confines of NZ. People who have been overseas and have had their eyes opened find it hard to understand how the industry even survives in NZ, where it is more about who you know and the amount of sucking-up you are prepared to do than any sensible measure of performance

.

You dont have a clue in the world who I am, so how can you make such comments. Just because you can read my age on the side of my profile you assume I dont know what Im talking about, or that I havnt been anywhere, infact this couldnt be further from the truth! Its like me saying to you "Just because youve missed the boat in New Zealand you are bitter and thats why posts the way you do" But I dont know who you are, maybe your a good guy (judging by your posts though Im not so sure though). You are clearly out of the loop regarding NZds current employment situation so stop posting like you know what your talking about. Flying overseas has no disadvantge on you career, All of my mates that I flew with overseas are flying jets and turboprops back in New Zealand now. I came home to NZd Got a job with a regional, flew on the tasman for a while and now im on a widebody, so maybe dont post about others unless you actually know where and what they have done remoak! I was just putting a positive spin on the current movement. Oh and Remoak I have never kissed bum to get where I am, Ive just worked hard, like many other kiwi pilots, Its about working hard and the rewards will come. Its not about sucking-up!
404..... dont know the "Real" reason for the 50 hours IF thingy. I assume its just some kind of filter they use to get their applicants, it is a bit of a strange one like the AirNZ degree req, but I know for a fact that both of these will be waivered in place of another area of experience. ie jet time

[remoak]

Flying overseas has no disadvantge on you career

Well at least three people who regularly post here know otherwise, as well as many others known to me personally. Just because your mates did OK, doesn't mean that everybody did.

Its about working hard and the rewards will come. Its not about sucking-up!

Yeah, right... I suspect your colleagues who are still instructing or banging around in Chieftains will see it rather differently, as you cruise by in your "widebody" which you got to by "hard work". Oh per-leese...

but I know for a fact that both of these will be waivered in place of another area of experience. ie jet time

...and I know for a fact that that is complete crap. Maybe the odd case... but it isn't automatic.

[nike]

Single-minded or Seniority?

Gidday remoak,

more than happy to be wrong, not sure what the first line was about.

Just because your mates did OK, doesn't mean that everybody did.

Oh, come on man. A 6yr could debate better.

It does appear you've dug your heels in and it doesn't mater what points or examples others bring up, they are scoffed at with cries of 'exception to the rule' and your broad strokes continue unabated.


This topic of the mighty overseas experience being ignored in NZ is one I can't figure.
Maybe if a little more specificity was brought into the mix, it might help to enlighten the flock, for at the moment it doesn't add up.

Since the example of Air Nelson is mostly used, I take it we are talking about people applying for a FO positon?......And being turned down for an interview?

Are you saying that say that if one returned to NZ with lets say 10,000 hours, that one should expect to not be given an interview for Air Nelson FO?

Is that an example you refer to or am I way off the mark?

Are we talking about smoking around africa in a lighty, coming back to NZ with say 2000 hours and being turned down?
Is it 5000 hours with a couple thousand lear jet in the states?
4500 in a ERJ somewhere in the home nations?
6000 with 146 time on a JAA licence?

Point is, again just chucking something out there cause I'm still scratching the nog here, prob the african gig is the only example that rings true, due to the thought that the various levels of experience open different doors?

And as we all have some internal ladder of what is a forward step or backward step, there are not many jobs in NZ that one can come home to without taking at least a sideways step, and usually in our minds a backward one.

So are we really talking about wanting to return to NZ and forego the seniority system under the guise of the great NZ travesty?

If not, enlightenment......

[kiwiblue]

Oh come on remoak -grow up. I don't know how many threads I've seen you hijack with your incessant whinging about the "injustices" of aviation in NZ. I for one am sick of hearing it. Reads to me like you applied, got knocked-back (for whatever reason) and the recent 50 NZ IFR was just a convenient hook to hang it on. Get over it.

There is absolutely no reason to **** on NZ, NZ aviation or current NZ aviation participants because you didn't make it.

Get a life.

Originally Posted by 404 Titan

no one has really given a good reason why Air Nelson has the recent 50 hours in country policy? Would someone like to answer that?

It's their train-set, they can do with it as they see fit with absolutely no need to justify their requirements to you, me or anyone else.