That GA clock... still winding down -or getting rejuvenated?
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That GA clock... still winding down -or getting rejuvenated?
Have been wandering around the musty halls of the PPRuNe archives again, found a post that absolutely fascinated me (here)-I could sympathise with most of the sentiments expressed; I had shared those same thoughts at times myself.
Lately there seems to be a little more spring in the GA step, so I wondered if some/all of the participants in that thread would like to update us of their doings since, thoughts and opinions now!
I'm going to extract a few quotes here now, to illustrate and start what I suspect may prove an interesting discussion! The quotes will be out of context to a degree, so for the good oil, go to the original post from May 2005.
OK, that's enough for now. Apologies for quoting only the really emotive stuff, but hey... If you want any more (I recommend you do!) go to the original thread, linked above (twice!) 
To the original authors: forgive me quoting you out of context. That original thread would rate right up there amongst the best I have seen on PPRuNe. Outstanding.
Gassed budgie, Bushy, Chimbu Warrior, Chimbu Chuckles, OzBusDriver... all of you who originally participated in this thread, would love to know what the last coupla years have bought for you, where you see the changes in our industry, what's got better, what worse... what hasn't changed!
And everyone else... what's your perception of GA today? Is the Doomsday clock for GA ticking down or winding up again?
Lately there seems to be a little more spring in the GA step, so I wondered if some/all of the participants in that thread would like to update us of their doings since, thoughts and opinions now!
I'm going to extract a few quotes here now, to illustrate and start what I suspect may prove an interesting discussion! The quotes will be out of context to a degree, so for the good oil, go to the original post from May 2005.
Originally Posted by gassed budgie
I came away feeling depressed and questioning my continued fulltime involvement in the GA industry.
...the pall of decay and deterioration that seems to hang in the air with some sort of semi-permanence as the whole place slowly wastes away.
...I spied a number of young students fussing over their aircraft with much enthusiasm and excitement, just as I did way back when. I felt like walking over to them and telling them to pursue another career and not waste their time with aviation. That was probably the most depressing bit for me. Feeling the way I did, was perhaps admitting to myself that my own time spent in GA over the last few years has been a waste and led me to a dead-end.
...with the whole sorry mess well on the way to regulating GA out of existence.
...the government and its instrumentalities have been making noises about the age of the GA fleet but have not, will not and appear unable to offer any solution or incentive...
...I love flying and will always fly, but I won’t be sticking around to see the last rites. Regrettably, with heavy heart its time to move on.
...the pall of decay and deterioration that seems to hang in the air with some sort of semi-permanence as the whole place slowly wastes away.
...I spied a number of young students fussing over their aircraft with much enthusiasm and excitement, just as I did way back when. I felt like walking over to them and telling them to pursue another career and not waste their time with aviation. That was probably the most depressing bit for me. Feeling the way I did, was perhaps admitting to myself that my own time spent in GA over the last few years has been a waste and led me to a dead-end.
...with the whole sorry mess well on the way to regulating GA out of existence.
...the government and its instrumentalities have been making noises about the age of the GA fleet but have not, will not and appear unable to offer any solution or incentive...
...I love flying and will always fly, but I won’t be sticking around to see the last rites. Regrettably, with heavy heart its time to move on.
Originally Posted by Ultralights
i gave up on my GA flying at the end of last year! and wont be looking back until there is a serious and effective attmept at its resurection. untill that occurs (if it ever will) i am getting my airborne fix flying RAA registered aircraft!
... what effect will the inevitable extinction of GA have on local and national economies??
... what effect will the inevitable extinction of GA have on local and national economies??
Originally Posted by Bushy
GA is going through a huge shakeout which will last for some years. Like CASA, it has to be pulled apart and rebuilt. The two are to a great extent related.
When I first started flying for a living, almost everything was free. Free maps, charts, regs, flight tests, exams, landings, and parking. Qantas had a notice in the Brisbane office, saying that if you had a PPL and 500 hours they would like to talk to you...
So the GA charter industry was not sustainable from the beginning...
And the industry does not seem to trust the regulator...
So what of the future?
Rationalisation...
simpler rules, less paperwork, a trustworthy regulator and a better cash flow for operators...
We have about 10000 GA aeroplanes, many of which are in poor condition due to inadequate maintenance...
When I first started flying for a living, almost everything was free. Free maps, charts, regs, flight tests, exams, landings, and parking. Qantas had a notice in the Brisbane office, saying that if you had a PPL and 500 hours they would like to talk to you...
So the GA charter industry was not sustainable from the beginning...
And the industry does not seem to trust the regulator...
So what of the future?
Rationalisation...
simpler rules, less paperwork, a trustworthy regulator and a better cash flow for operators...
We have about 10000 GA aeroplanes, many of which are in poor condition due to inadequate maintenance...
Originally Posted by Owen Stanley
It started from the top 15 years or so ago...
The cronyism and absolute lack of responsibility for national infrastructure...
If the bastard was made responsible for the millions wasted on ridiculous airspace proposals that were never going to work we could supply every commercial and private pilot with their documents and ammendments for the next 50 years...
The cronyism and absolute lack of responsibility for national infrastructure...
If the bastard was made responsible for the millions wasted on ridiculous airspace proposals that were never going to work we could supply every commercial and private pilot with their documents and ammendments for the next 50 years...
Originally Posted by flyby_kiwi
...it seems that by comparison the rotory wing guys generally have things better run that their fixed wing counter parts, by that i mean respectable hangers, up to date interior, etc etc.
Is it a case of having learned from the mistakes made by fixed wing or have they dicovered a secret ingredient?
Is it a case of having learned from the mistakes made by fixed wing or have they dicovered a secret ingredient?
Originally Posted by DeltaSix
I am moving overseas soon. I looked out into the world and found an A330 SO position.
With less hours than yours and after all the struggle of a grumbling tummy.
With less hours than yours and after all the struggle of a grumbling tummy.
Originally Posted by Chimbu Chuckles
I would have to be one of the most pro aviation, nutcase enthusiasts ever born but I am finding myself re-evaluating...
What I find the most galling is the constant BS from CASA, DOTARS, Govt etc.
The main areas that aviation lets itself down with is just infrastructure...look at the marine industry...look at the yacht clubs etc...then look at GA.
Slowly I am having GA beat out of me...
One of these days I'll sell the Bonanza... emphasis added:KB
What I find the most galling is the constant BS from CASA, DOTARS, Govt etc.
The main areas that aviation lets itself down with is just infrastructure...look at the marine industry...look at the yacht clubs etc...then look at GA.
Slowly I am having GA beat out of me...
One of these days I'll sell the Bonanza... emphasis added:KB
To the original authors: forgive me quoting you out of context. That original thread would rate right up there amongst the best I have seen on PPRuNe. Outstanding.
Gassed budgie, Bushy, Chimbu Warrior, Chimbu Chuckles, OzBusDriver... all of you who originally participated in this thread, would love to know what the last coupla years have bought for you, where you see the changes in our industry, what's got better, what worse... what hasn't changed!
And everyone else... what's your perception of GA today? Is the Doomsday clock for GA ticking down or winding up again?
Has anyone floated the idea of maybe pulling a group together rather quickly and getting either John or Kevin's attention, and actually bringing the problem's in GA, to their attention?? For christs sake, can't the pilot body actually act as one for once??
morno
morno
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morno
I like your idea, however apart from stupid ASIC cards and no kids in the cockpit on RPT etc, most other topics you can get 100 pilots together and get 200 opinions
I do not want to sound defeatest but look at the threads around here.
J
I like your idea, however apart from stupid ASIC cards and no kids in the cockpit on RPT etc, most other topics you can get 100 pilots together and get 200 opinions
I do not want to sound defeatest but look at the threads around here.
J
Jabawocky,
Completely agree. It's quite sad that you can't get enough pilots in this industry to get together, put all ego's aside and come up with some solutions to the problems plaguing the industry, then take it to a level where something might happen for once!
No wonder CASA, DOTAR's etc. is able to screw us over every year.
I'll be dead and long gone before anything happens on a united front for pilots.
Ohh, and don't give me that AFAP crap. I haven't seen one thing that they've done in the last 5 years.
Sorry for the slight thread drift.
morno
Completely agree. It's quite sad that you can't get enough pilots in this industry to get together, put all ego's aside and come up with some solutions to the problems plaguing the industry, then take it to a level where something might happen for once!
No wonder CASA, DOTAR's etc. is able to screw us over every year.
I'll be dead and long gone before anything happens on a united front for pilots.
Ohh, and don't give me that AFAP crap. I haven't seen one thing that they've done in the last 5 years.
Sorry for the slight thread drift.
morno
Sorry Kiwiblue,
I guess what I'm saying is things in GA will not improve much, unless pilots take a united stand together, and put their ego's aside to come up with solutions for EVERYONE (yeah, hard to think some pilots would think about others). I'd be more than happy to be involved, but it takes more than just 1 person.
morno
I guess what I'm saying is things in GA will not improve much, unless pilots take a united stand together, and put their ego's aside to come up with solutions for EVERYONE (yeah, hard to think some pilots would think about others). I'd be more than happy to be involved, but it takes more than just 1 person.
morno
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From my perspective, not much has changed, still fly regularly in RAA aircraft, and also my own. though in the past few weeks, i have been approached and asked if i would consider an instructors position or some part time charter work, though this would require renewing my GA ratings. i have been negotiating to get these rating back at hire rates only in exchange for the paid work once rated again.
CASA or Cessna rubbed out the C441s?
Whatever, the PA31s are surely the next to go.
At least some GA companies are re-equipping with new 206s and Airvans.
Whatever, the PA31s are surely the next to go.
At least some GA companies are re-equipping with new 206s and Airvans.
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GA remains the same in Australia, regardless of the economic situation. You would think that movement and REX screaming propaganda that there would be something good going on in training in GA. The only thing that has kept it all alive in the last few years is the number of international students coming to get their CPLs here.
Moorabbin still looks ****e, Essendon airport is still run down (with a DFO shopping centre added)...Instructors are still paid next to nothing (but Grade 1s earn more than REX F/Os, of course)...operators are still cutting costs and corners to save any bucks they can... Airservices charts are $10 instead of $3 - a big consideration on a GA salary.....the difference is that now your employer actually just pays you rather than trying to explain why you will just have to wait another couple of weeks... the chances of earning a decent wage when you do get to an airline is diminishing...My advice to any young person wanting to get into flying as a career - DON'T. There are plenty of better jobs (and even some professions) that you should consider...
Don't waste mummy and daddy's money on a CPL- go and get yourself a law or accounting degree...that way you might run an airline one day.
Moorabbin still looks ****e, Essendon airport is still run down (with a DFO shopping centre added)...Instructors are still paid next to nothing (but Grade 1s earn more than REX F/Os, of course)...operators are still cutting costs and corners to save any bucks they can... Airservices charts are $10 instead of $3 - a big consideration on a GA salary.....the difference is that now your employer actually just pays you rather than trying to explain why you will just have to wait another couple of weeks... the chances of earning a decent wage when you do get to an airline is diminishing...My advice to any young person wanting to get into flying as a career - DON'T. There are plenty of better jobs (and even some professions) that you should consider...
Don't waste mummy and daddy's money on a CPL- go and get yourself a law or accounting degree...that way you might run an airline one day.
Locusthunter, according to your profile you have an ATPL. You appear to be a pilot, already established in the industry. It does destroy your own credibility when advising people that being a lawyer or an accountant is a better career move than becoming a pilot.
If you truly believed that, why dont YOU go and do a law degree?
How many pilots do you know who would actually want to be accountants?
How many accountants do you know who would actually want to be pilots?
If you truly believed that, why dont YOU go and do a law degree?
How many pilots do you know who would actually want to be accountants?
How many accountants do you know who would actually want to be pilots?
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This is my first post on PPRuNe but I'd like to challenge the assumption that young people are driven by salaries and little else.
I embarked on a five-year uni degree in 2003 and about three years into the degree I began my flight training and decided that a career in aviation was what I wanted. Whilst I have kept up my studies - and will soon graduate with a Commerce/Law degree - I managed to get my CPL last month and are currently weighing up my options in aviation.
What I want to point out is that I made a decision to pursue flying not because the pay is better, but because it's what I love doing. To this extent I would rather spend my life as a happy, under-paid pilot than as a unhappy, over-paid lawyer and - whilst I am somewhat concerned about the things that I read on this forum - I'm not the only young person who can see past the dollar signs.
I embarked on a five-year uni degree in 2003 and about three years into the degree I began my flight training and decided that a career in aviation was what I wanted. Whilst I have kept up my studies - and will soon graduate with a Commerce/Law degree - I managed to get my CPL last month and are currently weighing up my options in aviation.
What I want to point out is that I made a decision to pursue flying not because the pay is better, but because it's what I love doing. To this extent I would rather spend my life as a happy, under-paid pilot than as a unhappy, over-paid lawyer and - whilst I am somewhat concerned about the things that I read on this forum - I'm not the only young person who can see past the dollar signs.
Last edited by cudza101; 18th Oct 2007 at 07:41. Reason: Typographical Error
And everyone else... what's your perception of GA today? Is the Doomsday clock for GA ticking down or winding up again?
Here in EnZed the Campaign Against Aviation (CAA) are in full swing in driving the nails into the GA coffin especially with their "New" Director. I really fear for the future of GA in NZ with the changes that CAA have made and their interpretations on some of the rules.
A couple of examples, Several years ago they took away all the hard earned priviledges of the engineers and gave the priviledges to the organisation by only allowing Part 145 shops to do certain work. Now that are about to do something similar with the instructing priviledges.
I am surprised there has been no comments so far about the new CAA director, as far as I am concerned he will be bad news for GA.
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I would rather spend my life as a happy, under-paid pilot than as a unhappy, over-paid lawyer
I am sure you will change your mind when you are in your 30s if you had a family to support. I bet that law degree will be looking really good then!
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Lasiorhinus I agree. It is never good to be in a job you hate (been there done that 
) but when you have a family you need to put their needs first - gone are the days living like a single person. Like it or not the amount of coin you bring in is important unless you are lucky to have a wife that earns more money than you! Kids are expensive things.
As for cudza101 he will probably be right. Aviation T & C should be acceptable by 2020. Well we can only hope
) but when you have a family you need to put their needs first - gone are the days living like a single person. Like it or not the amount of coin you bring in is important unless you are lucky to have a wife that earns more money than you! Kids are expensive things.As for cudza101 he will probably be right. Aviation T & C should be acceptable by 2020. Well we can only hope
Dick Smith was trying to reduce the compliance costs that are faced by the GA industry. He knew how important it was to reduce those costs.
"Affordable safety" was all about getting the costs down to an "affordable" level.
I know some will howl at my suggestion, but if you do, you will just be admitting that you are utterly ignorant of where the costs are and how to reduce them.
"Affordable safety" was all about getting the costs down to an "affordable" level.
I know some will howl at my suggestion, but if you do, you will just be admitting that you are utterly ignorant of where the costs are and how to reduce them.
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Paper Planes,
I understand where you're coming from... I just hope that I've got enough idealism to get me to a stage where I can actually support a family. The amount of coin you bring in is important it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all.
My family might have to eat gruel for a year but they'll just have to put up with it
I understand where you're coming from... I just hope that I've got enough idealism to get me to a stage where I can actually support a family. The amount of coin you bring in is important it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all.
My family might have to eat gruel for a year but they'll just have to put up with it
AustralianMade
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Good luck with this one:
Truly spoken like an unmarried man!
Bwaaah ha ha ha!
Ps. I've got my missus exactly where she wants me!
My family might have to eat gruel for a year but they'll just have to put up with it
Bwaaah ha ha ha!
Ps. I've got my missus exactly where she wants me!