Lets bend the VFR a little!
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Lets bend the VFR a little!
Anyone had anything similar to this happen lately?
BEWARE! THEY ARE OUT THERE!
Yours truly departed to the east from Bunbury today at about 1pm - an hour or so after the low cloud and showers moved in. After entering the soup at about 1100' and getting a departure call off to centre, things were looking good.
Passing 4000', identified, was given "traffic 10'oclock, 5 miles, unverified 5500' southbound".
In solid IMC WTF?
After leveling out at 4500', " Traffic now 2 miles 10 o'clock 5500' unv."
me dead!
Shortly, "Traffic now in your 6, 1mile"
Thank for that!
At 30 miles BUN at 9000' I finally popped into the blue.
I'm sure this isnt the first case of this but I have three questions for starters.
1. How accurate is radar when they say "unverified"?
2. Do VFR pilots really smash around in 8000' thick soup these days
3. Given this champ went from being 2miles 10o'clock, to 1mile at 6 quite quickly, is it likely he was aware of the situation and "ducked" around behind while maintaining radio silence?
BEWARE! THEY ARE OUT THERE!
Yours truly departed to the east from Bunbury today at about 1pm - an hour or so after the low cloud and showers moved in. After entering the soup at about 1100' and getting a departure call off to centre, things were looking good.
Passing 4000', identified, was given "traffic 10'oclock, 5 miles, unverified 5500' southbound".
In solid IMC WTF?
After leveling out at 4500', " Traffic now 2 miles 10 o'clock 5500' unv."
me dead! Shortly, "Traffic now in your 6, 1mile"
Thank
for that!At 30 miles BUN at 9000' I finally popped into the blue.
I'm sure this isnt the first case of this but I have three questions for starters.
1. How accurate is radar when they say "unverified"?
2. Do VFR pilots really smash around in 8000' thick soup these days
3. Given this champ went from being 2miles 10o'clock, to 1mile at 6 quite quickly, is it likely he was aware of the situation and "ducked" around behind while maintaining radio silence?
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I could probably answer the first 2 questions
1. Most times fairly accurate, depending on the accuracy of the transponder in the aircraft. It just means that ATC havent verified the altitude on that particular flight. (Which is why we have to say our altitude passing on first contact in a radar environment). Lets face it how mny times do ATC tell us that the transponder is giving the wrong reading? Not often.
2. There will be a few clowns VFR in IMC, rare but possible.
As for 3, possible however chances are that they were on another frequency anyway.
1. Most times fairly accurate, depending on the accuracy of the transponder in the aircraft. It just means that ATC havent verified the altitude on that particular flight. (Which is why we have to say our altitude passing on first contact in a radar environment). Lets face it how mny times do ATC tell us that the transponder is giving the wrong reading? Not often.
2. There will be a few clowns VFR in IMC, rare but possible.
As for 3, possible however chances are that they were on another frequency anyway.
1. How accurate is radar when they say "unverified"?
Don't know, but I suspect 500' difference in levels and you are in danger, 1000' and your probably OK.
2. Do VFR pilots really smash around in 8000' thick soup these days
Yes! On numerous occassions I have heard VFR aircraft depart into weather that I know must put them in the poo.
3. Given this champ went from being 2miles 10o'clock, to 1mile at 6 quite quickly, is it likely he was aware of the situation and "ducked" around behind while maintaining radio silence?
Maybe!
Dr
Don't know, but I suspect 500' difference in levels and you are in danger, 1000' and your probably OK.
2. Do VFR pilots really smash around in 8000' thick soup these days
Yes! On numerous occassions I have heard VFR aircraft depart into weather that I know must put them in the poo.
3. Given this champ went from being 2miles 10o'clock, to 1mile at 6 quite quickly, is it likely he was aware of the situation and "ducked" around behind while maintaining radio silence?
Maybe!
Dr
"I've even heard of IFR single pilot RPT guys in the soup talking on their mobile phones"
With respect guys - What rubbish!
I am not RPT, but I see no problem with talking on a mobile phone while "single pilot IFR in the soup".
My co-pilot "George" is very capable. I just have to sit there and monitor what he is doing. If he screws up I stop talking on the phone, just as I would stop talking to ATC.
I have my mobile phone set up through my headset. I can talk on it, monitor ATC and keep an eye on George all at the same time - its called multi-tasking! Something that pilots generally do very well!
One might argue that "in the soup" is the best time to have a chat on the phone - cause there is little danger in being distracted from "see and be seen".
What do you suggest I should be doing while "single pilot IFR in the soup"?
Dr
With respect guys - What rubbish!
I am not RPT, but I see no problem with talking on a mobile phone while "single pilot IFR in the soup".
My co-pilot "George" is very capable. I just have to sit there and monitor what he is doing. If he screws up I stop talking on the phone, just as I would stop talking to ATC.
I have my mobile phone set up through my headset. I can talk on it, monitor ATC and keep an eye on George all at the same time - its called multi-tasking! Something that pilots generally do very well!
One might argue that "in the soup" is the best time to have a chat on the phone - cause there is little danger in being distracted from "see and be seen".
What do you suggest I should be doing while "single pilot IFR in the soup"?
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 20th Aug 2007 at 04:08.
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What do you suggest I should be doing while "single pilot IFR in the soup"?
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Originally Posted by ForkTailedDrKiller
IFR single pilot RPT? Is there such a thing?
Last edited by kiwiblue; 20th Aug 2007 at 05:25. Reason: attribution to author, due a modified prior post
Seasonally Adjusted
SmokingHole, was the following statement uttered on your flightdeck during the aforementioned incident?
"Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns."
"Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns."
"coz the FTDK has only one noise up front. Law of averages and all that"
OK Wiz, that's a whole other debate.
Personally I would rather be a A100 in the soup, with the radius of action that gives me than at A010 below the overcast.
I have a GPS driven moving map with detailed terrain to help me find a place to park.
I have now flown >80,000 nm in the FTDK. What's the chance of the donk crapping itself in the next 500?
Dr
OK Wiz, that's a whole other debate.
Personally I would rather be a A100 in the soup, with the radius of action that gives me than at A010 below the overcast.
I have a GPS driven moving map with detailed terrain to help me find a place to park.
I have now flown >80,000 nm in the FTDK. What's the chance of the donk crapping itself in the next 500?
Dr
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No parachute school at bunbury. Sounds like a ppl holder going to pick up someone or flying home to the south west.
Dr, I would love to see what happens when that whizz bang GPS goes u/s. Seen it happen before! Bit hard when the MK1 Brain has been in neutral the last 30 mins on the telephone!
Dr, I would love to see what happens when that whizz bang GPS goes u/s. Seen it happen before! Bit hard when the MK1 Brain has been in neutral the last 30 mins on the telephone!
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Not that long ago I shot an NDB approach to the "minimums" at PMQ when i heard a VFR aircrafts taxi call for LHI and then his departure call.......... climbing to 9500 !!
The cowboys will continue to do what they do.
The cowboys will continue to do what they do.
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I have a GPS driven moving map with detailed terrain to help me find a place to park.
I have now flown >80,000 nm in the FTDK. What's the chance of the donk crapping itself in the next 500?
I have now flown >80,000 nm in the FTDK. What's the chance of the donk crapping itself in the next 500?
has your GPS got some form of radar in it for identifying other errant soup flyers?.
80, 000 miles huh?............ law of averages dictate that your odds are slimming.
(don't need a line to go fishing around here, do ya?)
"I would love to see what happens when that whizz bang GPS goes u/s"
Come on Baz, your just jerk'in my chain aren't you.
The Mad Dr is flying along at A090 in the soup and his whizbang GNS430 craps itself!
What's he going to do?
1) Look at the GPSMap296 on the yoke
2) Use the ADF and/or VOR
3) Pull the Garmin III Pilot GPS out of my flightbag and fire it up
4) Ask for radar vectors
5) Use the VOR on my Icom handheld VHF
6) Dead-reckon my way to VMC
7) Descent to VMC
8) Pull the power back to Max Range and hope to stumble into VMC before the donk stops
Even I could get to (4) or (5) before I would have to get the brain out of neutral.
Dr
Come on Baz, your just jerk'in my chain aren't you.
The Mad Dr is flying along at A090 in the soup and his whizbang GNS430 craps itself!
What's he going to do?
1) Look at the GPSMap296 on the yoke
2) Use the ADF and/or VOR
3) Pull the Garmin III Pilot GPS out of my flightbag and fire it up
4) Ask for radar vectors
5) Use the VOR on my Icom handheld VHF
6) Dead-reckon my way to VMC
7) Descent to VMC
8) Pull the power back to Max Range and hope to stumble into VMC before the donk stops
Even I could get to (4) or (5) before I would have to get the brain out of neutral.
Dr
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that’s all well and good for you FTDK with the expensive fancy equipment. But my first thought as would have been most pilots (who can't afford the latest in communication and tracking equipment) was the single IFR RPT pilot to answer his mobile would have had to, thumble around in his pocket for a while to get it out and then probably take off his headset to talk on the thing, cutting off his listen watch to traffic and ATC. That would be foolish and unprofessional
This is all encouraged by our out of date rules. If you wish to go IFR in Australia, in effect you have to put in a full flight plan and do this 30 minutes in advance. Under the US NAS, even if you are in Class E there is a simple call for going IFR – it’s called a “pop up clearance.” The basic details are put in and a clearance is given – all within about 30 seconds.
In the UK it is “free in G” – you simply fly in Class G IFR. In Canada you fly “free in G” by making an announcement on 126.7 when in IMC.
Under NAS there is provision for “free in G.” When this is introduced there will be simple procedures so an aircraft can climb through or fly in cloud without having to put in a detailed flight plan to Airservices 30 minutes in advance and receive a charge for getting basically nothing.
So let’s see some support from GA for the continued introduction of the Government NAS policy.
In the UK it is “free in G” – you simply fly in Class G IFR. In Canada you fly “free in G” by making an announcement on 126.7 when in IMC.
Under NAS there is provision for “free in G.” When this is introduced there will be simple procedures so an aircraft can climb through or fly in cloud without having to put in a detailed flight plan to Airservices 30 minutes in advance and receive a charge for getting basically nothing.
So let’s see some support from GA for the continued introduction of the Government NAS policy.
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