Instructor Shortage.
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Yes, Dr, you have it right. Just because a person has trained to a higher level, if they never use that training, then it doesn't make them a better pilot. It makes them a higher-qualified pilot, but once you're out of the training environment and on your own in the world you learn from flying and flying repetitively.
I've flown with low-time CPLs and high-time PPLs (and vice-versa) and as far as I am concerned, the better pilot was generally the one who flew more often.
Other than the good Doctor (because his opinion is already known) does anyone else disagree with what I have said?
Walrus
I've flown with low-time CPLs and high-time PPLs (and vice-versa) and as far as I am concerned, the better pilot was generally the one who flew more often.
Other than the good Doctor (because his opinion is already known) does anyone else disagree with what I have said?
Walrus
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The best predictor of airmanship isn't the training level or the amount of flying a pilot does. Attitude - personal commitment to do well - is what counts most.
Every day I see pilots who fly frequently and who are complete rubbish; Their self-belief far outweighs their abilities, and since they believe themselves to be good pilots they will never actually improve.
The best pilots I see are the ones who push themselves to do better: Attitude, on-going training and experience are all in there.
Every day I see pilots who fly frequently and who are complete rubbish; Their self-belief far outweighs their abilities, and since they believe themselves to be good pilots they will never actually improve.
The best pilots I see are the ones who push themselves to do better: Attitude, on-going training and experience are all in there.
Its interesting that in general you find that those who push the line that you don't need a specified qualification to do a particular job are those who lack the required qualification!
Dr
Dr
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Why would any senior instructor want to stay or return to such a bastardised industry? You work your a**e off trying to do things by the book and get you're a**e kicked by some ex RAAF FOI hitler that just wants to destroy your ego. Some a**e wipe thats used to flying state of the art multi million dollar machinery, whose never had to fly heaps of s**t for a crust, or never conducted anNDB let down over some remote location in the middle of the night in rain and water dripping on their head!! They are not there to help you but to critisize you for the slightest error. For what? peanuts.
Instructing today is an absolute joke..........give 'em enough $$$ for 20 hrs flying and you're guaranteed a GFPT or a license irrespective of whether you really can cut it or not. Instruction by some grade 3 with 200 odd hrs that wouldn't have a clue how to really handle an aircraft and has never flown a decent charter let alone one in poor wx. So it continues on, the experienced guys leave and you are left with........the teachers who can't teach the teachers.Result s**t h***e pilots.
I've wandered off course a little in this post, but the whole Instructor rating/PPL/CPL training syllabus needs a big overhaul.
Instructing today is an absolute joke..........give 'em enough $$$ for 20 hrs flying and you're guaranteed a GFPT or a license irrespective of whether you really can cut it or not. Instruction by some grade 3 with 200 odd hrs that wouldn't have a clue how to really handle an aircraft and has never flown a decent charter let alone one in poor wx. So it continues on, the experienced guys leave and you are left with........the teachers who can't teach the teachers.Result s**t h***e pilots.
I've wandered off course a little in this post, but the whole Instructor rating/PPL/CPL training syllabus needs a big overhaul.
PA39
We live in hope, but the much discussed change to CASR Part 61, does not yet show any light-at-the-end-of-tunnel. Part 61 is intended to replace CAR Part V, and CAO 40. They started on it in 2000, so who knows when it will be implemented. The so called Manual of Standards has not yet been published, and that might require 'improved' instructor training?
Unfortunately, it looks like instructing will become even more enslaved to this bureaucratic monster called CBT, (Competency Based Training). I cannot see how this alone will produce better instructors - in fact, it's a source of frustration to many, and probably a reason many are quitting instructing.
Unhinged, et al
I've had a look into the proposed CASR 61 in regards to instructing without holding a Class 1 medical, and there are certain limited proposals there.
See 61.130 (4) and, 61.660 (3) for these.
Frankly, they are possibly still a bit too restrictive, but it's what 61.660 (3) does not say which is encouraging. It really does allow for instructing in probably 80% of the work which might come in the flight school door, particularly specialist stuff like BFR's, type endorsements, ratings, currency checks etc.
Remember that the whole concept of allowing experienced, but non Class 1 medical, instructors back into harness is not about them doing a wearying full days work. Rather, it's intention is more toward older instructors filling in the gaps.
happy days,
We live in hope, but the much discussed change to CASR Part 61, does not yet show any light-at-the-end-of-tunnel. Part 61 is intended to replace CAR Part V, and CAO 40. They started on it in 2000, so who knows when it will be implemented. The so called Manual of Standards has not yet been published, and that might require 'improved' instructor training?
Unfortunately, it looks like instructing will become even more enslaved to this bureaucratic monster called CBT, (Competency Based Training). I cannot see how this alone will produce better instructors - in fact, it's a source of frustration to many, and probably a reason many are quitting instructing.
Unhinged, et al
I've had a look into the proposed CASR 61 in regards to instructing without holding a Class 1 medical, and there are certain limited proposals there.
See 61.130 (4) and, 61.660 (3) for these.
Frankly, they are possibly still a bit too restrictive, but it's what 61.660 (3) does not say which is encouraging. It really does allow for instructing in probably 80% of the work which might come in the flight school door, particularly specialist stuff like BFR's, type endorsements, ratings, currency checks etc.
Remember that the whole concept of allowing experienced, but non Class 1 medical, instructors back into harness is not about them doing a wearying full days work. Rather, it's intention is more toward older instructors filling in the gaps.
happy days,
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Poteroo
It was a sad day when a senior FOI informed me in no uncertain terms that on an observed PPL test that I was too hard on the candidate. I failed the candidate for entering a heavy stall whilst recovering from an unusual attitude (spiral dive) under the hood. My personal training syllabus taught students how to survive, not just how to manipulate the flight controls. However thats not in the day VFR syllabus. Ask how many grade 3's have REALLY done spin training as part of their FIR. You'll be lucky to get an honest answer, but I can assure you there is a lot who have not. Why? because the guy who taught them, didn't do it either.
It can only get better!!
PS
The class 1 medical goes the same way. If you're in the "set" and you've a pot belly, beer gut and out of nick, you'll get by ok. If your out of the "set' and your over 55 then its the 14 point deal. Go over 14 points and your up for a $300 stress test etc etc, and if you're 55 or over gives away 12 of those points to start.
It was a sad day when a senior FOI informed me in no uncertain terms that on an observed PPL test that I was too hard on the candidate. I failed the candidate for entering a heavy stall whilst recovering from an unusual attitude (spiral dive) under the hood. My personal training syllabus taught students how to survive, not just how to manipulate the flight controls. However thats not in the day VFR syllabus. Ask how many grade 3's have REALLY done spin training as part of their FIR. You'll be lucky to get an honest answer, but I can assure you there is a lot who have not. Why? because the guy who taught them, didn't do it either.
It can only get better!!
PS
The class 1 medical goes the same way. If you're in the "set" and you've a pot belly, beer gut and out of nick, you'll get by ok. If your out of the "set' and your over 55 then its the 14 point deal. Go over 14 points and your up for a $300 stress test etc etc, and if you're 55 or over gives away 12 of those points to start.
Last edited by PA39; 24th Aug 2007 at 10:35. Reason: Post script
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Dr,
Where here has anyone said that unqualified people should be allowed to do certain jobs? If you believe that I said it, then please point it out to me. I have said that it is not your qualification that makes you a good pilot, it is your skill and attitude, and most of that comes through experience.
If it was the qualification, then I would be as good a pilot as you (or any other IFR pilot) the day after I got my ticket. I don't think so. That ticket really only means that I am considered safe enough to go out there and learn.
That's the same of any qualification, aviation-related or not; from a drivers' licence to a Diploma of Arts. I've seen many people come through my company waving a BA and they weren't worth a cracker until they had a couple of years in business under their belts. Flying is no different.
I understand your position but I think you're wrong. Sorry.
Walrus
Where here has anyone said that unqualified people should be allowed to do certain jobs? If you believe that I said it, then please point it out to me. I have said that it is not your qualification that makes you a good pilot, it is your skill and attitude, and most of that comes through experience.
If it was the qualification, then I would be as good a pilot as you (or any other IFR pilot) the day after I got my ticket. I don't think so. That ticket really only means that I am considered safe enough to go out there and learn.
That's the same of any qualification, aviation-related or not; from a drivers' licence to a Diploma of Arts. I've seen many people come through my company waving a BA and they weren't worth a cracker until they had a couple of years in business under their belts. Flying is no different.
I understand your position but I think you're wrong. Sorry.
Walrus
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And that should be relevant experience as well. Compare a 5000 hour PPL who's flown mostly cross country, or a 1000 hour instructor who's taught ab-initio and cross country many times over .. who do you think would be of better value to the student pilot?
Walrus 7
I’m sorry but most of it comes through good training first and foremost and then it is refined through relevant experience and supervision i.e. proficiency checks whether they be BFR’s, IFR renewals or company standardisation checks. Experience on its own doesn’t make a good pilot.
I have said that it is not your qualification that makes you a good pilot, it is your skill and attitude, and most of that comes through experience.
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Walrus
Sorry chum but you are only partly right, and I think Training Wheels has the other part of the story.
A PPL receives a minimum of 40 hours training - maybe more.
A CPL spends 3-5 times that with an instructor breathing down his neck and improving his standards.
Thousands of hours as a PPL tooling around the countryside on sly charters, doing low-passes outside the Aero Club, circling approaches cos you think you're and Ag Pilot and generally pulling your dick won't make you a professional.
These are the initial training standards we are talking about here. Lowering standards for instructor training will only lower the standard of pilot training that results.
Sorry chum but you are only partly right, and I think Training Wheels has the other part of the story.
A PPL receives a minimum of 40 hours training - maybe more.
A CPL spends 3-5 times that with an instructor breathing down his neck and improving his standards.
Thousands of hours as a PPL tooling around the countryside on sly charters, doing low-passes outside the Aero Club, circling approaches cos you think you're and Ag Pilot and generally pulling your dick won't make you a professional.
These are the initial training standards we are talking about here. Lowering standards for instructor training will only lower the standard of pilot training that results.
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Lowering standards for instructor training will only lower the standard of pilot training that results
It still amazes me that so often we get our least experienced instructors to do the ab inito training. In those first few lessons when new pilots are learning foundational skills and attitudes which everything else builds upon, we should be putting them in the hands of the most competent instructors we can find. Less experienced instructors can then do a good job of building on that solid beginning.
Student pilots need the best instruction we can possibly offer, not the most expedient.
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I have had a few students that came to me from other schools in the region... much bigger "sausage factory" schools.
Because they are "only" a PPL student they are dicked around no end and when they finally get a Gr3 that will fly with them, all they get is their hand held around the nav route - no pre-brief, no de-brief - and "well that was OK but you'll have to do another check ride with the CFI before you can go solo nav".
Many of these students have fundamental technical problems that would have been nipped in the bud if they had flown with a GrI earlier in their training
Because they are "only" a PPL student they are dicked around no end and when they finally get a Gr3 that will fly with them, all they get is their hand held around the nav route - no pre-brief, no de-brief - and "well that was OK but you'll have to do another check ride with the CFI before you can go solo nav".
Many of these students have fundamental technical problems that would have been nipped in the bud if they had flown with a GrI earlier in their training
Originally Posted by Bendo
"well that was OK but you'll have to do another check ride with the CFI before you can go solo nav".
I did all my training up to PPL level with senior instructors and only senior instructors, under the philosophy that flying with them was a better use of my dollar. Yes, there were times that I couldnt get a lesson booked without having to take a junior instructor - so I accepted the delay and booked again for later.
If everyone did the same thing I did, junior instructors would find it almost impossible to make any money. This is, clearly, a poor situation for junior instructors, especially those who do indeed wish to make instructing their career.
Without getting into the instructor vs charter route debate for hour-building, I personally beleive that one should only become an instructor if they want to become an instructor, and then only when they have some knowledge to impart. I'm not going to attempt to define how much knowledge, but I did my own training under the philosophy that, all other things being equal, the instructor who'd been flying for a few decades would have more wisdom to impart than the one who did their TIF a year or so before I did mine.
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Junior/less-experienced instructors have a huge amount to offer, and I get cranky at the generalisations that turn up about their perceived lack of ability - Many new instructors work extremely hard to be good at their jobs. But the truth is that they are still in the early stages of teaching; On-going check and training, coupled with increasing experience, will help them grow into well-rounded instructors.
It isn't sensible for students to insist on only senior instructors if there are others available. There are good and poor instructors at all levels - I reckon I've worked with the whole range.
But students whose instructors have not taught them about attitude flying, or the practical benefits of longtitudinal stability in an aeroplane, or how to really use the ground cushion when landing a helicopter, or indeed any of the real arts of flying will just take longer to reach the required standards.
Senior instructors to lay the foundations, junior instructors to help students develop and refine their flying skills, and then back to the senior instructors to put the final polish on - That's the way it should be. Then the students learn, the junior instructors grow and develop professionally, and the senior instructors are used to the best possible effect.
It isn't sensible for students to insist on only senior instructors if there are others available. There are good and poor instructors at all levels - I reckon I've worked with the whole range.
But students whose instructors have not taught them about attitude flying, or the practical benefits of longtitudinal stability in an aeroplane, or how to really use the ground cushion when landing a helicopter, or indeed any of the real arts of flying will just take longer to reach the required standards.
Senior instructors to lay the foundations, junior instructors to help students develop and refine their flying skills, and then back to the senior instructors to put the final polish on - That's the way it should be. Then the students learn, the junior instructors grow and develop professionally, and the senior instructors are used to the best possible effect.
!!
Oh yeah, maybe cause I only learnt on fixed wings!
Though some of my landings could sure do with a "ground cushion"!
Though some of my landings could sure do with a "ground cushion"!
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 25th Aug 2007 at 13:41.
Unhinged - Now there's someone with qualifications AND experience! Great combination.
Ah yes, Sideshow Bob makes me sweat for my renewals. He even makes me hand fly the FTDK!
Dr
Ah yes, Sideshow Bob makes me sweat for my renewals. He even makes me hand fly the FTDK!
Dr