Take Off Flaps - 210
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Take Off Flaps - 210
Anyone who feels prompted to answer this post with "read your POH" ... please don't bother !
This is a question for anyone who has experience of flying the bigger Cessna singles (206/210), particularly out of short or rough strips.
The POH for a 210 suggests that 20 degrees of flap should only be used for "soft" surfaces, and that for rough or short field operations, 10 degrees should be used.
So, has anyone used 20 degrees ? If so, under what sort of conditions/weights/speeds etc ?
Many thanks,
FF
This is a question for anyone who has experience of flying the bigger Cessna singles (206/210), particularly out of short or rough strips.
The POH for a 210 suggests that 20 degrees of flap should only be used for "soft" surfaces, and that for rough or short field operations, 10 degrees should be used.
So, has anyone used 20 degrees ? If so, under what sort of conditions/weights/speeds etc ?
Many thanks,
FF
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Hi fullyflapped, never flown a 210 but i always use 20 degrees flap in a 206, found them to become airborne much cleaner, not draging your arse so to speak, lower nose attitude also helps avoid obstacles (you can only fly around what you can see!) has worked for me over the years! Sure others have a different view. 
20 degrees also works wonders for the PA32 family as well.
20 degrees also works wonders for the PA32 family as well.
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Ive never had any trouble with flaps 10 in the 2 1 0 on soft strips. If you fly it as per the POH it will perform.
Ive never used 20 degree's for take off from a standing start... however a idea which has proved very helpful during some flights was, power on down the strip , flaps up , passing about 50 or 60 kts put down flaps 10 if you still dont spring into the air maybe add 15 and you'll def's be airbourne.
Id say if your not sure what 20 will do - try it on a empty leg? or just stick to the 10. easy.
you wouldnt be worried about going to YKLI would you?
Ive never used 20 degree's for take off from a standing start... however a idea which has proved very helpful during some flights was, power on down the strip , flaps up , passing about 50 or 60 kts put down flaps 10 if you still dont spring into the air maybe add 15 and you'll def's be airbourne.
Id say if your not sure what 20 will do - try it on a empty leg? or just stick to the 10. easy.
you wouldnt be worried about going to YKLI would you?
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20 degrees
I spent about 500 hours in a 210 up at 3000 ft and temps pushing 45 in the summer, usually 4 pax plus 15 kg each out of rough 600m. (Never want to do it again)
All I can say is that if I didn’t use 20 degrees I don’t think I would be here today, I’m convinced it gets off the ground a lot quicker. Although an old Chief Pilot taught me a trick, if its a non a stol kit 210 if you match the flaps to full aileron deflection its about 17 degrees he said something like the best lift drag ratio, not going to debate whether it is or not. I just know it works.
Very good technique for getting the aircraft off the ground if you need to in a hurry. Remember that its not fail safe though, what happens if the flaps fail just before you want "pop” that extra 5-10degrees and you are relying on it to get out of trouble, basically you are up sh
creek without a paddle. But on the odd occasion it will defiantly get you out of trouble.
One thing I found that if I used 10 degrees the takeoff was a lot smoother. Remember when you bleed off the flap from 20 to 10 you have a fairly violent sink in some cases so get your speed up first and "bleed" that flap slowly not in one big chunk.
One other thing I think is useful is that you need to hold the control column a little bit firmer forward just after take off because she has a tendency to pitch nose up.
Happy flying, beautiful machine!
All I can say is that if I didn’t use 20 degrees I don’t think I would be here today, I’m convinced it gets off the ground a lot quicker. Although an old Chief Pilot taught me a trick, if its a non a stol kit 210 if you match the flaps to full aileron deflection its about 17 degrees he said something like the best lift drag ratio, not going to debate whether it is or not. I just know it works.
Ive never used 20 degree's for take off from a standing start... however a idea which has proved very helpful during some flights was, power on down the strip , flaps up , passing about 50 or 60 kts put down flaps 10 if you still dont spring into the air maybe add 15 and you'll def's be airbourne
creek without a paddle. But on the odd occasion it will defiantly get you out of trouble.One thing I found that if I used 10 degrees the takeoff was a lot smoother. Remember when you bleed off the flap from 20 to 10 you have a fairly violent sink in some cases so get your speed up first and "bleed" that flap slowly not in one big chunk.
One other thing I think is useful is that you need to hold the control column a little bit firmer forward just after take off because she has a tendency to pitch nose up.
Happy flying, beautiful machine!
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FullyFlapped
the 210 that I flew didnt have a STOL kit and yea 4 pax plus me.
It was really tight and shouldnt have really been done, but when one needs hours, you gots to do what you gots to do.
I have been informed that they only take 3 out of there these days, which is a lot safer!
the 210 that I flew didnt have a STOL kit and yea 4 pax plus me.
It was really tight and shouldnt have really been done, but when one needs hours, you gots to do what you gots to do.
I have been informed that they only take 3 out of there these days, which is a lot safer!
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Do not under any circumstances compare performance/handling between a C210 and C206 specially the post 76?? 206 which have reflex leading edges which the C210 does not have neither is it I think the same airfail section??
There is a very good reason the best climb speed/rate for the C210 is 104KIAS ??cant remember the exact figure, just accelerate and there is no need to hurry with the gear or flap for that matter. I dont have the Cl graph for the C210 but I suspect 10 deg is almost pure lift.
There is a very good reason the best climb speed/rate for the C210 is 104KIAS ??cant remember the exact figure, just accelerate and there is no need to hurry with the gear or flap for that matter. I dont have the Cl graph for the C210 but I suspect 10 deg is almost pure lift.
Ive never had any trouble with flaps 10 in the 2 1 0 on soft strips. If you fly it as per the POH it will perform.
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Follow the POH. Just what you wanted to hear. Biggest impact on takeoff distance for me was getting the nosewheel off the ground asap and holding it there until the plane wanted to fly. Then stay in the ground effect until the speed built up enough to fly away.
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Have to go with pyote. I flew a 210 at 5000 airport elevation and by matching you full aileron deflection with the flaps (somewhere between 10 and 20) seemed to work a treat and gave me the best take off performance. Makes me wonder if I was pyotes' cheif pilot?!!
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C210,s
Can quite comfortably use 10-20 flap. don,t!
Depends on situation.Every situation is different.
Hell i,ve used 25-30 with full fuel @ full pax out of a 350mtr strip.
POH says it can,t be done?
But no big trees< Escape route down a valley and a machine i,d flown for 3 month,s that i trusted.
LEARN.Please.
By Experience through guy,s who have been there and done it and stuck around long along to live.
Not old so @ so,s(although we have a place).
But by your Workmates who should be offering this sort of advice anyway.
Do you have rising ground,?.(What,s the wind doing)??
old ag pilot stuff!!!(Access Each Situation it as it was your first and last job)
How Bloody hot is it (most importantantly)!!!.(Kimberlys,/NT/PNG/Torress)
How well do you. REALLY know your aircraft @ will you bet your life on your nexit decision in totall and utter confidence????.
If not please don,t refer to the book for help.
You should know.!.Please
Stupid decisions kill stupid pilots.!.
Or hopefully your GUT feeling will tell you.?
If this is,nt the most honest post i,ve ever made then help this bloke.
Pilot Operating Handbook???
Cheers M
Where,s this kid been?.
Depends on situation.Every situation is different.
Hell i,ve used 25-30 with full fuel @ full pax out of a 350mtr strip.
POH says it can,t be done?
But no big trees< Escape route down a valley and a machine i,d flown for 3 month,s that i trusted.
LEARN.Please.
By Experience through guy,s who have been there and done it and stuck around long along to live.
Not old so @ so,s(although we have a place).
But by your Workmates who should be offering this sort of advice anyway.
Do you have rising ground,?.(What,s the wind doing)??
old ag pilot stuff!!!(Access Each Situation it as it was your first and last job)
How Bloody hot is it (most importantantly)!!!.(Kimberlys,/NT/PNG/Torress)
How well do you. REALLY know your aircraft @ will you bet your life on your nexit decision in totall and utter confidence????.
If not please don,t refer to the book for help.
You should know.!.Please
Stupid decisions kill stupid pilots.!.
Or hopefully your GUT feeling will tell you.?
If this is,nt the most honest post i,ve ever made then help this bloke.
Pilot Operating Handbook???
Cheers M
Where,s this kid been?.
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Sorry multime but I just can't make out what you're saying. It's been a few years since I flew the 210 but even so...........
Eh? Are you saying don't use flap at all? Surely not?
Yep. That's what the 'P' charts are for.
Yet you did it anyway? Why? Ride 'im cowboy!
I'm not sure that I'm interpreting your comments properly, the strangled punctuation and spelling makes it difficult
so some clarification would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Originally Posted by multime
Can quite comfortably use 10-20 flap. don,t!
Originally Posted by multime
Depends on situation.Every situation is different.
Originally Posted by multime
Hell i,ve used 25-30 with full fuel @ full pax out of a 350mtr strip. POH says it can,t be done?
I'm not sure that I'm interpreting your comments properly, the strangled punctuation and spelling makes it difficult
so some clarification would be appreciated.Thanks.
Sprucegoose
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POH says it can,t be done?
Hell i,ve used 25-30 with full fuel @ full pax out of a 350mtr strip.
Now I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to aerodynamics, but even my limited knowledge says that any increase in lift from flap greater than 20 degrees, is negated by the considerable increase in drag in most cases! The two exceptions I know, are the cherokee six (25 degree take off flap) and the twotter (up to 40 degrees). I am fairly sure the C-210 isn't on the list, as it uses a totally different type of aerofoil...
With regard to performance USE THE BOOK!, in most cases you won't even be able to achieve that performance anyway!
PS:
Where's this kid been?.
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Gaunty & HH: Spot on.
10deg is virtually pure lift in the 206 (not flown a 210) anything above that, the drag increases massively. This is all why there is a POH and P-charts in the aircraft -trained and experienced test pilots risked themselves to develop that data. If you don't follow that data, you are making yourself a test-pilot -and your pax (God forbid you are carrying any!) you crash-test dummies.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: It is my opinion that your paying passengers deserve and must be able to expect the very best performance possible from both your aircraft and yourself all the time. NONE of that 'best performance' is to be found outside the tested and published performance data and limits.
Think about it.
If you think the job your boss/CP/whoever has asked you to do requires you to 'wring some extra performance out of her', best you refuse to do the job, lighten the load or wait until more favourable conditions exist. That way at least you won't have those of us on here and the Coroner second-guessing your decisions, when you are unlikely to have the luxury of a right of reply.
10deg is virtually pure lift in the 206 (not flown a 210) anything above that, the drag increases massively. This is all why there is a POH and P-charts in the aircraft -trained and experienced test pilots risked themselves to develop that data. If you don't follow that data, you are making yourself a test-pilot -and your pax (God forbid you are carrying any!) you crash-test dummies.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: It is my opinion that your paying passengers deserve and must be able to expect the very best performance possible from both your aircraft and yourself all the time. NONE of that 'best performance' is to be found outside the tested and published performance data and limits.
Think about it.
If you think the job your boss/CP/whoever has asked you to do requires you to 'wring some extra performance out of her', best you refuse to do the job, lighten the load or wait until more favourable conditions exist. That way at least you won't have those of us on here and the Coroner second-guessing your decisions, when you are unlikely to have the luxury of a right of reply.
Sprucegoose
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Subtlety doesn't work on some Mr Flinstone, or may I call you Fred?
You know, it's funny how well these things perform when you USE THE POH! 
FullyFlapped. How is it, that you can disregard the use of such an important piece of information, that is put into the aircraft for a reason??
morno
FullyFlapped. How is it, that you can disregard the use of such an important piece of information, that is put into the aircraft for a reason??
morno
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As Gaunty said -
The wing on the 206 and 210 are quite different. 206 wing is hi lift - 210 wing is high speed. (Especially in the strutless 210s - which I think is the G model and later)
The four noticable differences are;
1. Straight trailing edge on 210 vs cranked trailing edge on 206(& most other cessna singles)
2. Thickest part of the wing is nearer the centre of the chord on the 210 (at about 40% chord if I remember correctly), and is nearer the leading edge on the 206.
3. Flush rivets forward of the spar on the 210.
4. Very different flap.
Therefore this must be kept in mind when discussing wing performance in the 2 types, as what applies to one may not apply to the other etc.
There is no way you could come over the fence @40kts in a 210 like you can in a 206 with a Robertson STOL conversion.
I do use flaps 20 for takeoff in my 210 in short field ops. In the takeoff roll, as soon as the ASI needle touches the white arc I give a firm but gentle tug on the column and it literally leaps into the air.
I find that if I hold too much column back too early in the roll, drag increases significantly and lengthens the ground roll.
And yes, be careful retracting the flaps from 20 to 10, do so in small increments or be ready for a sag in your climb.
The wing on the 206 and 210 are quite different. 206 wing is hi lift - 210 wing is high speed. (Especially in the strutless 210s - which I think is the G model and later)
The four noticable differences are;
1. Straight trailing edge on 210 vs cranked trailing edge on 206(& most other cessna singles)
2. Thickest part of the wing is nearer the centre of the chord on the 210 (at about 40% chord if I remember correctly), and is nearer the leading edge on the 206.
3. Flush rivets forward of the spar on the 210.
4. Very different flap.
Therefore this must be kept in mind when discussing wing performance in the 2 types, as what applies to one may not apply to the other etc.
There is no way you could come over the fence @40kts in a 210 like you can in a 206 with a Robertson STOL conversion.
I do use flaps 20 for takeoff in my 210 in short field ops. In the takeoff roll, as soon as the ASI needle touches the white arc I give a firm but gentle tug on the column and it literally leaps into the air.
I find that if I hold too much column back too early in the roll, drag increases significantly and lengthens the ground roll.
And yes, be careful retracting the flaps from 20 to 10, do so in small increments or be ready for a sag in your climb.
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I don't want to open a can of worms here. The POH was written when the aircraft was first made, flown and tested, by some very experienced pilots, and yes it will get thrown in your face in court (heaven forbid) But the aircraft we are talking about have since done hundreds of thousands of hours, and through trial and error people have learnt how to get the very best out of them in thousands of different situations, something the test pilots never have the luxury of doing in there limited testing programs.
How advanced would the human race have become if people only did what was thought possible! If your not living on the edge your taking up too much space Learn how to get the best from your aircraft you'll be amazed what they can do
How advanced would the human race have become if people only did what was thought possible! If your not living on the edge your taking up too much space
Learn how to get the best from your aircraft you'll be amazed what they can do
trolleydriver
That has got to be the dumbest reason I have heard yet for not following the performance data in the POH. It is there for a reason so some idiot doesn’t go and kill him/herself because they thought they were a qualified test pilot. If you, at the tender age of 27 want to dig your own grave, go for it. Just make sure there are no poor unsuspecting passengers on board and that it is your own aircraft. The next thing we will all know is sum bean counter at an insurance company will use this thread as justification to raise insurance premiums. The only thing is it won’t cost them a thing as they can legally refuse to pay out because you weren’t operating the aircraft as the manufacturer specified.
The next time you think you are a test pilot, go have a read of some old BASI crash journals. They are littered with people who thought they were test pilots just like you.
That has got to be the dumbest reason I have heard yet for not following the performance data in the POH. It is there for a reason so some idiot doesn’t go and kill him/herself because they thought they were a qualified test pilot. If you, at the tender age of 27 want to dig your own grave, go for it. Just make sure there are no poor unsuspecting passengers on board and that it is your own aircraft. The next thing we will all know is sum bean counter at an insurance company will use this thread as justification to raise insurance premiums. The only thing is it won’t cost them a thing as they can legally refuse to pay out because you weren’t operating the aircraft as the manufacturer specified.
The next time you think you are a test pilot, go have a read of some old BASI crash journals. They are littered with people who thought they were test pilots just like you.