Take Off Flaps - 210
Sprucegoose
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Sprucegoose
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No worries, lots of good info on proon, sometimes it's a bugger to find though...
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Storm Climb
Lordy, HH that link took me back... I felt icy fingers on my spine whilst reading that Coroners' report extract.
A few years ago, there were some 206 jockeys (and some extremely foolhardy 207 jockeys) in NZMF that used to use exactly this "technique" in an attempt to quickly out-climb the turbulence generated by adjacent trees in any sort of sea-breeze. I doubt very much that any of them achieved 400'-500'; closer to 200'-300', if that, with nothing on the clock (ASI) but the makers' name -certainly the groundspeed (from an observers position) was for all intents and purposes, virtually zero. The practice was so prevalent among one operators' crew that even the rookie 172 drivers were trying the same foolish thing. Every man-jack was doing it with a load of pax aboard too.
In truth, this was one of the scariest things I have ever seen since I have been flying; the tragic thing was it was a daily practice, if not encouraged then at least tacitly endorsed by the operator.
To watch those aircraft wallowing away in an incipiently stalled condition at the end of the manouvre was heart-in-mouth stuff. Sadly, it was totaly unnecessary -for the obvious reasons, and for the fact that more height was gained more quickly and safely by simply sucking up the few seconds of turb, a quick right turn into Harrisons Cove and the ride the 'Elevator' (a sheer rock face that provided heaps of lift in most conditions) as every other NZMF pilot does anyway.
I am not aware of any 'loss of control -stall' or 'loss of life' incidents as a result of this particular stupidity, but neither am I aware of this technique having been eliminated from this operators' mindset.
I used to make my opinion of this technique known (as did others) to those practicing it, with usually a very poor reception. The practice continued -possibly partly because I was from another company. I raised the issue in regular Safety Officer User-Group meetings and on one occasion I mentioned it (in a de-identified, non-personal manner) to a CAA GA Inspector. For these actions, I was decried by my own CP! I eventually wound up with a very large knife in my back from that same CP. The ladder to success in GA is fraught with all manner of dangers...
I have no regrets of raising the issues, then or now. I would truly regret it did I not raise it, and someone died as a consequence.
Crash reports like the one you have linked should be compulsory reading for all CPL candidates and regularly reviewed.
Originally Posted by creampuff
very close to the ground and probably reached a speed of about 100 knots at the end of the runway before he caused the aircraft to ascend very steeply... the aircraft climbed very steeply to a height of about 400 - 500 feet
In truth, this was one of the scariest things I have ever seen since I have been flying; the tragic thing was it was a daily practice, if not encouraged then at least tacitly endorsed by the operator.
To watch those aircraft wallowing away in an incipiently stalled condition at the end of the manouvre was heart-in-mouth stuff. Sadly, it was totaly unnecessary -for the obvious reasons, and for the fact that more height was gained more quickly and safely by simply sucking up the few seconds of turb, a quick right turn into Harrisons Cove and the ride the 'Elevator' (a sheer rock face that provided heaps of lift in most conditions) as every other NZMF pilot does anyway.
I am not aware of any 'loss of control -stall' or 'loss of life' incidents as a result of this particular stupidity, but neither am I aware of this technique having been eliminated from this operators' mindset.
I used to make my opinion of this technique known (as did others) to those practicing it, with usually a very poor reception. The practice continued -possibly partly because I was from another company. I raised the issue in regular Safety Officer User-Group meetings and on one occasion I mentioned it (in a de-identified, non-personal manner) to a CAA GA Inspector. For these actions, I was decried by my own CP! I eventually wound up with a very large knife in my back from that same CP. The ladder to success in GA is fraught with all manner of dangers...
I have no regrets of raising the issues, then or now. I would truly regret it did I not raise it, and someone died as a consequence.
Crash reports like the one you have linked should be compulsory reading for all CPL candidates and regularly reviewed.
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Are you guys serious 
Someone asks a simple question about what people have learnt through experiance and now your lumping everyone with a slightly different idea into a showoff/look at me, basket..... people tend to forget the basics..... whislt i think building speed in ground effect is a good idea, the nose of the aircraft should only then be raised to the climb attitude (do you remember that from flight school) Attitude+power = performance And before all you airline pilots jump down my throat... I seem to remember a jet crashing at night after its static vents were blocked by tape???? the only thing the crew really needed to do (and yes hindsite is a wonderful thing) was set climb power and raise the nose to the climb attitude (the still had an AH) and then figger out what the hell to do.... but by following all the books and procedures for stick shackers etc, they flew it into the sea to prevent it stalling, it would never have stalled if they had just done what they had learnt while flying a c152... when i was instructing if my student couldn't do a full circuit with out an ASI/altimeter i wouldn't let them fly solo.... power vs attitude!!!! All aircraft fly the same ever since the wright bothers, just the POH keeps getting bigger to cover someone elses arse! rant over
Someone asks a simple question about what people have learnt through experiance and now your lumping everyone with a slightly different idea into a showoff/look at me, basket..... people tend to forget the basics..... whislt i think building speed in ground effect is a good idea, the nose of the aircraft should only then be raised to the climb attitude (do you remember that from flight school) Attitude+power = performance And before all you airline pilots jump down my throat... I seem to remember a jet crashing at night after its static vents were blocked by tape???? the only thing the crew really needed to do (and yes hindsite is a wonderful thing) was set climb power and raise the nose to the climb attitude (the still had an AH) and then figger out what the hell to do.... but by following all the books and procedures for stick shackers etc, they flew it into the sea to prevent it stalling, it would never have stalled if they had just done what they had learnt while flying a c152... when i was instructing if my student couldn't do a full circuit with out an ASI/altimeter i wouldn't let them fly solo.... power vs attitude
!!!! All aircraft fly the same ever since the wright bothers, just the POH keeps getting bigger to cover someone elses arse! rant over
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Whoah there mule!
There's using experience and stepping outside the boundaries. The point others were making is that if you want to start extrapolating or going beyond the POH you're then a test pilot and on your own.
Lots of people look to these forums for advice early in their careers and what was being explained here is that the consequences of not following the rules can be fatal.
There's using experience and stepping outside the boundaries. The point others were making is that if you want to start extrapolating or going beyond the POH you're then a test pilot and on your own.
Lots of people look to these forums for advice early in their careers and what was being explained here is that the consequences of not following the rules can be fatal.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Forktail Dr Killer = imposter ??
yeah right?? You are waaaaaaaaaaay off the back of the power and any other curve.
not any C210 I've flown and that includes more new ones than you have ever seen.
I have even used full flap (start the TO roll with zero flap and stick the flap lever all the way down at 50 kts) to get off on a really hot day or to get off a wet strip, where the approaches were clear of obstacles.
A C210 will leap back into the air when you shove the go button all the way in
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Originally Posted by trolleydriver
But the aircraft we are talking about have since done hundreds of thousands of hours, and through trial and error people have learnt how to get the very best out of them in thousands of different situations, something the test pilots never have the luxury of doing in there limited testing programs.
Trolley, I have been to 4 funerals now where the casket held the remains of pilots that had flown perfectly serviceable aeroplanes into the ground. Three of those four were C210 pilots.
You are low time, presumably male, mid-twenties, and in GA. You have a bit of time under your belt now, and you are starting to have a few 'ideas' of your own about how things can be done.
Just like the C210 pilots we buried.
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Originally Posted by Dr Wind-Up=
A C210 will leap back into the air when you shove the go button all the way in
Originally Posted by Gaunty
not any C210 I've flown and that includes more new ones than you have ever seen.
Almost every one I've ever flown has looked like it's been to hell and back. Mind you, the way I fly.............
Note to those taking all this 'She'll be right' stuff in, don't. Sure the C210's a workhorse and can haul a load but all this talk of full flap take-offs and flying by the seat of your pants will get you one place only.
The same one as ITCZ's mates.
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Originally Posted by FTDK
I have even used full flap (start the TO roll with zero flap and stick the flap lever all the way down at 50 kts) to get off on a really hot day or to get off a wet strip, where the approaches were clear of obstacles...
Even under common law there is still such a thing as a 'duty of care'. Imagine for a second someone following a practice such as this, injuring, maiming or killing... when asked 'why?', they respond along the lines of something they saw in PPRune...
You already know you can be individually identified simply by using the Internet -no different here. If you are the author of spurious advice published here and acted upon, guess who the duty of care is going to haunt then???
You really do need to curb your excesses.
Sprucegoose
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Someone asks a simple question about what people have learnt through experiance and now your lumping everyone with a slightly different idea into a showoff/look at me, basket.....
people tend to forget the basics..... whislt i think building speed in ground effect is a good idea, the nose of the aircraft should only then be raised to the climb attitude (do you remember that from flight school) Attitude+power = performance
Where the hell does this lower the nose to build up speed come from? Who teaches this stuff?
I say again: "If you set the correct attitude immediately after take off, with take off power set, the aircraft will perform, provided you have not exceeded any other parameters of the POH" (eg: max take off weight)
Have you forgotten the basics? Rotate 3 degres per second nose up to climb attitude? Works in a Cessna 150 (approx 5-6 degrees), works in a Boeing or Airbus (approx 17-18 degrees) and everything in between.
There are such things as NEW C210's
PS: I am seriously concerned by the general tone and misconceptions of this thread!
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PS: I am seriously concerned by the general tone and misconceptions of this thread!
Knock it off before someone gets hurt.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Howard Hughes 
Mate, spent a fair bit of my life selling them and everything else from C152 up new.
The single biggest problem we had were the above experts and gurus who new much better than Mr Cessna on how to operate them best. Even worse were the "legend in their own lunchbox" CPs. I mean what would a new aircraft salesman know about his product. Many more times than once I had to do the "I have control" during a demo to prevent the often surprisingly high time pirate from rolling the dice on our behalf, my children were still babies at the time.
If I had a $ for every time I heard something like, "now if Cessna really knew what they were doing they would...............followed by current aero club bar theory" I would be a rich man.
Most of the time was spent patiently reeducating them about stuff they already knew or at least should have.
Question following your,
I know you know the answer but I wonder how many here do.
What checks can you perform to assure yourself that the available "take off power" is set??
Mate, spent a fair bit of my life selling them and everything else from C152 up new.
The single biggest problem we had were the above experts and gurus who new much better than Mr Cessna on how to operate them best. Even worse were the "legend in their own lunchbox" CPs. I mean what would a new aircraft salesman know about his product. Many more times than once
I had to do the "I have control" during a demo to prevent the often surprisingly high time pirate from rolling the dice on our behalf, my children were still babies at the time.If I had a $ for every time I heard something like, "now if Cessna really knew what they were doing they would...............followed by current aero club bar theory" I would be a rich man.
Most of the time was spent patiently reeducating them about stuff they already knew or at least should have.Question following your,
with take off power set,
What checks can you perform to assure yourself that the available "take off power" is set??
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Forktail Dr Killer is this your new persona, what happened to ForktailDrKiller ?? BTW I love the nic.
No could have been Peter Taylor, Keith Patterson or Big Bob Douglas.
I had you picked as a conservative pilot. which is why the "imposter" tag.
My recollection is that full flap is mostly drag, perhaps you meant to say that by the time the flap extended through 10-20 degrees on the way to full from 50 KIAS you were already on the way.
IMHO a go around from full flap needs to be handled very carefully, a startled gazelle she is not, huge trim changes, a bit squirelly (more or less depending on C of G) while the flaps coming in and an RM Williams full of rudder. IFR or VFR at night in the bush on the dials pronto and sweat it out until stabilised. Girls need not apply.
No could have been Peter Taylor, Keith Patterson or Big Bob Douglas.
I had you picked as a conservative pilot.
which is why the "imposter" tag.My recollection is that full flap is mostly drag, perhaps you meant to say that by the time the flap extended through 10-20 degrees on the way to full from 50 KIAS you were already on the way.
IMHO a go around from full flap needs to be handled very carefully, a startled gazelle she is not, huge trim changes, a bit squirelly (more or less depending on C of G) while the flaps coming in and an RM Williams full of rudder. IFR or VFR at night in the bush on the dials pronto and sweat it out until stabilised. Girls need not apply.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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you then just have to manage the transition to the climb
Was that the C185 flown by a local station owner whilst rounding up stock near the mill, stepped out of the wreckage dusted himself and told em to get the billy on.?
BTW Peter is now fully retired after finishing his career as the Falcon rep in Oz talk to him from time to time.
Could not help myself
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Forktail Dr Killer
I think we are actually in heated agreement here, I didn't say it wouldn't go, of course it will, it's the definition of "leap" thats at hand.
Bloody legends they are and you're right, you can make em sit up and dance if you know how, demonstrated crosswind limit is one. But I've seen too many pilots who are "endorsed" who shouldn't be flying them or do not have their head in the right place.
Haven't had any takers to my question related to HH's post, FDK is not allowed.
[
I think we are actually in heated agreement here, I didn't say it wouldn't go, of course it will, it's the definition of "leap" thats at hand.
Bloody legends they are and you're right, you can make em sit up and dance if you know how, demonstrated crosswind limit is one. But I've seen too many pilots who are "endorsed" who shouldn't be flying them or do not have their head in the right place.
Haven't had any takers to my question related to HH's post, FDK is not allowed.
What checks can you perform to assure yourself that the available "take off power" is set??
Grandpa Aerotart
FDK is not allowed.
Only got about 15 hrs in C210s...all logged back in the good old days when new ones were so common as to be boring.
A great aeroplane (but not as great as a Bo
) but from memory one that really needed to be flown like a much larger aeroplane...they are NOT C185s/C206s. In fact about the only similarities were a Cessna logo and a high wing.
