Wing drop recovery at the stall - killing an old myth.
MACH082
You should have quoted my previous paragraph as well. My comments were made in reference to other single engine aircraft. With about 4000 hours on various Cessna singles in the training environment, mind you it is 11 years since I flew one, they had the most benign stall characteristics of all the single engine aircraft I flew. If I was to compare all the aircraft I have flown, single and twin, the Ted Smith Aerostar had the most eye opening stall of them all. Definitely not for the faint hearted and part of the reason why they undeservedly gained the nick name of the widow maker.
You should have quoted my previous paragraph as well. My comments were made in reference to other single engine aircraft. With about 4000 hours on various Cessna singles in the training environment, mind you it is 11 years since I flew one, they had the most benign stall characteristics of all the single engine aircraft I flew. If I was to compare all the aircraft I have flown, single and twin, the Ted Smith Aerostar had the most eye opening stall of them all. Definitely not for the faint hearted and part of the reason why they undeservedly gained the nick name of the widow maker.
787 Captain said:
I am confused. Are you talking about spin recovery or stall recovery? At the time of your post, the thread was about "wing drop recovery at the stall".
If the "stall recovery" has proceeded to the point of "rotation" (I believe you mean spin rotation - at one point I thought you were referring to roll), then the stall recovery did not occur!
The proper stall recovery will prevent the spin from commencing.
Have I misunderstood something?
Basically, inexperienced pilots often seem to be more distracted by the rotation, and the longer it takes them to stop this, the faster the rotation becomes.
If the "stall recovery" has proceeded to the point of "rotation" (I believe you mean spin rotation - at one point I thought you were referring to roll), then the stall recovery did not occur!
The proper stall recovery will prevent the spin from commencing.
Have I misunderstood something?
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My interpretation, for what it is worth:
A wing drop at the stall is an INCIPIENT SPIN - beginning of autorotation. Why should we have a different recovery procedure depending on how developed the spin is?
A wing drop at the stall is an INCIPIENT SPIN - beginning of autorotation. Why should we have a different recovery procedure depending on how developed the spin is?
Because if the spin is fully developed the throttle will need to be closed to assist in the recovery. If not fully developed then the power needs to come on ASAP (but still after breaking the stall) to prevent height loss.
- Stick (ease forward to break the stall)
- Power (to minimize height loss)
- Rudder (to control yaw)
Then aileron once speeds back in the green arc.
In that order for stalls, wingdrop or not.
Fully developed spins are a completely different league.
- Stick (ease forward to break the stall)
- Power (to minimize height loss)
- Rudder (to control yaw)
Then aileron once speeds back in the green arc.
In that order for stalls, wingdrop or not.
Fully developed spins are a completely different league.
Last edited by glekichi; 2nd Jun 2007 at 05:40. Reason: missed a line
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A couple of points...
The web is a great media for discussing these kind of issues as people's thought and comments can be heard from far and wide - the bigger the sample the better. People are too quick to cast the first stone and the slanging match that ensues turns a lot of people away. It's a shame that so much energy is wasted with the "i'll find something wrong in here" attitude as opposed to the "what can I learn?" attitude.
- A37575 the title of your thread doesn't properly reflect the content of your first post. If you want to talk about the recovery from a wing drop that's great. I'm all for open discussion. If you want to criticise GFS (or any other company) then that's a separate issue. Don't put the two together.
An instructor at Moorabbin mentioned that the standard wing drop at the stall recovery technique taught at GFS was that the student locks the ailerons central at the point of stall then picks up the dropped wing by applying rudder with sufficient force and duration to skid the aircraft into level flight. Only when the wings are levelled in this manner is the student taught to relax and use ailerons in the conventional sense.
- I am familiar with the school in question and can assure you this is not the "standard" recovery. If in fact this technique is being suggested by any of the instructors then hopefully they're reading this thread, have identified that something's amiss and will seek clarification with fellow staff / CFI.
- On the topic of spin recovery the word standard shouldn't enter the conversation. A common method is to slow the rotation (rudder), break the stall (elevator) and recover. Applying elevator first (or simultaneously) is not an acceptable technique in a number of aircraft in various spin modes as it will 'blanket' the rudder and render it useless. The bottom line is to consult the AFM. What works for one aircraft won't for the next.
- With regards to stall recovery: maintain balance on entry, arrest wing drop (if any) with rudder, unstall with elevator. Now that we're flying again, power, aileron etc.. as required.
The web is a great media for discussing these kind of issues as people's thought and comments can be heard from far and wide - the bigger the sample the better. People are too quick to cast the first stone and the slanging match that ensues turns a lot of people away. It's a shame that so much energy is wasted with the "i'll find something wrong in here" attitude as opposed to the "what can I learn?" attitude.
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In the majority of GA lighties, if in doubt:
1) Close the throttle
2) Kick the ball into the centre with rudder
3) Let go of the control wheel
4) Recover from whatever attitude you find yourself in when you recognise the picture out the windscreen
Dr
1) Close the throttle
2) Kick the ball into the centre with rudder
3) Let go of the control wheel
4) Recover from whatever attitude you find yourself in when you recognise the picture out the windscreen
Dr
Ahh some sense
Rob
Totally agree with post, good on you young man.
Forktailed
Yeah agree with you but I would not like to use your technique for a stall in the approach configuration turning final or some other low level task.
Totally agree with post, good on you young man.
Forktailed
Yeah agree with you but I would not like to use your technique for a stall in the approach configuration turning final or some other low level task.
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When learning to fly gliders many years ago I was taught and demonstrated application of opposite aileron and rudder to stop the rotation.
Has anyone encountered this as a technique on any powered aircraft?
Has anyone encountered this as a technique on any powered aircraft?
Agree
Forktailed
Totally agree with you about not getting into that situation, but remember you are talking about students that are learning, they typically complete stalling just prior to circuits so that it hopefully does not happen and they can know the symptoms of the stall, but.... They are learning and amagine what could happen turning final with contra-rotating circuits, overshoot the turn and pull it around in a steep turn.... Thats what I was thinking... From my point I agree with Rob, I have contacts at GFS and would be very suprised if they were not teaching what Rob said.
Cheers, have a good one
Totally agree with you about not getting into that situation, but remember you are talking about students that are learning, they typically complete stalling just prior to circuits so that it hopefully does not happen and they can know the symptoms of the stall, but.... They are learning and amagine what could happen turning final with contra-rotating circuits, overshoot the turn and pull it around in a steep turn.... Thats what I was thinking... From my point I agree with Rob, I have contacts at GFS and would be very suprised if they were not teaching what Rob said.
Cheers, have a good one
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Alice
I am all for exploring the full envelope of flying and non-flying behaviour of an aeroplane at a safe height (see the thread on side-slipping), with an experienced instructor if needed, but the reality is that unintentionally stalling an aircraft at low level will most likely end your life cycle!
I recently had an interesting ride with a highly experienced instructor/ATO/aerobatic pilot. I had just completed my IR renewal and invited him to take the V35B for a fly.
What did he do? He took it out into the training area and stalled it every possible which-way!!!
It was really interesting to see his way of finding out what an aeroplane is really like to fly.
Cheers
Dr
I am all for exploring the full envelope of flying and non-flying behaviour of an aeroplane at a safe height (see the thread on side-slipping), with an experienced instructor if needed, but the reality is that unintentionally stalling an aircraft at low level will most likely end your life cycle!
I recently had an interesting ride with a highly experienced instructor/ATO/aerobatic pilot. I had just completed my IR renewal and invited him to take the V35B for a fly.
What did he do? He took it out into the training area and stalled it every possible which-way!!!
It was really interesting to see his way of finding out what an aeroplane is really like to fly.
Cheers
Dr
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Aircraft:
"I am confused. Are you talking about spin recovery or stall recovery? At the time of your post, the thread was about "wing drop recovery at the stall".
If the "stall recovery" has proceeded to the point of "rotation" (I believe you mean spin rotation - at one point I thought you were referring to roll), then the stall recovery did not occur!
The proper stall recovery will prevent the spin from commencing.
Have I misunderstood something?"
Yes, i think you have misunderstood something. If a wingdrop occurs then the aircraft is rotating. Yes, stall recovery will stop a spin from developing, but if you get a wingdrop with the stall, the aircraft will be rotating. You then recover from this before it becomes a fully developed spin. In the event that it does become a spin, you still apply opposite rudder to stop the rotation then ease off backpressure to break the stall and recover, so it's still similar.
"I am confused. Are you talking about spin recovery or stall recovery? At the time of your post, the thread was about "wing drop recovery at the stall".
If the "stall recovery" has proceeded to the point of "rotation" (I believe you mean spin rotation - at one point I thought you were referring to roll), then the stall recovery did not occur!
The proper stall recovery will prevent the spin from commencing.
Have I misunderstood something?"
Yes, i think you have misunderstood something. If a wingdrop occurs then the aircraft is rotating. Yes, stall recovery will stop a spin from developing, but if you get a wingdrop with the stall, the aircraft will be rotating. You then recover from this before it becomes a fully developed spin. In the event that it does become a spin, you still apply opposite rudder to stop the rotation then ease off backpressure to break the stall and recover, so it's still similar.
Moderator
For those who might want some further discussion, there were several stall related threads in the Flight Test forum some time ago .. John Farley had much to say in respect of what did, and did not, make safety sense ... well worth the read.
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Yes, i think you have misunderstood something. If a wingdrop occurs then the aircraft is rotating. Yes, stall recovery will stop a spin from developing, but if you get a wingdrop with the stall, the aircraft will be rotating. You then recover from this before it becomes a fully developed spin. In the event that it does become a spin, you still apply opposite rudder to stop the rotation then ease off backpressure to break the stall and recover, so it's still similar.
When i was taught to recover from a spin when i did my aerobatic endo my instructor at the time told me that if i ever could not recover from a spin to relax all control inputs and the aeroplane would recover itself. He then got me to do just this and it worked and i beleived at the time that this was correct. When i did my initial grade 3 some time later, i explained this to my instructor thinking this was fact and was basically told, that if i did this in a fully developed spin i was going to die. I was some what confused as i had seen it work with my own eyes or so i believed. When myself and the grade 1 went up to conduct our spinning lesson he got me to demonstrate what i had told him, which i did and it worked again! he then chuckled at me and told me that i had never actually entered a fully developed spin, he pointed the high rate of descent and explained that it was in fact a incipient spin, not a developed spin (although it had spun at least 5 times loosing 3000ft). He then entered into a fully developed spin pointed out a lowering rate of descent and a more flat plane of rotation, he then asked me to try and recover by relaxing the controls. It kept spinning towards the rapidly approaching terra firma. I then was told to apply the recovery technique (full forward stick and opp rudder) to which the spin increased in rotation before popping out just as quick.
I learnt a valuable lesson that day and i hope somebody here has aswell!
I hope the bloke who taught me to relax all control inputs is still not teaching that same recovery method as someone will hurt themselves if they ever actually enter a fully developed spin, then panic when it speeds up when they try and recover before relaxing all control inputs!
After learning how to enter and recover correctly from a fully developed spin i can tell you it is not a scary thing, but rather an enjoyable experience, especially combined with loops stall turns or whatever combination you can conjure. It made flying more enjoyable for myself and gave my friends (and girlfriend at the time) many a scare! but it made me sick in the stomach to think that if i had myself to deep in the spin and couldnt recover that i would have relaxed the control inputs thinking the aeroplane would self recover! especially with loved ones on board!
Safe flying folks
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I've learnt something then, I didn't know that a fully developed spin needed full forward control input. I've realised now why in the steep nose down spins that I've done I've only had to ease off the back pressure and apply forward pressure as necessary. I certainly didn't push the stick full forward. It makes sense then what I noticed when I was in a pretty flat spin one day and ended up pushing the stick almost completely forward to get out of it, and that the rotating seemed to last longer than normal. I just thought I'd made a messier recovery than usual but in fact it looks like I was in a proper spin.
Thanks for the advice MACH082
Thanks for the advice MACH082
That explains something that has not been demonstrated to me. Incipient stage in a C150/2 is very nose down and winding up up to one turn of rotation.(Thats as far as my training went) My experience in gliders was of a fully developed stable, constant, flattish attitude and almost instant recovery when opposite rudder and forward stick (Burgfalks and ASK-13s)
Always taught to correct yaw with rudder, forward stick and power...but not too much forward stick, hey Centaurus
I used to be a bit eager to recover with the forward stick bit.
Whats a bunt? oh ok I do not want to do that
Always taught to correct yaw with rudder, forward stick and power...but not too much forward stick, hey Centaurus
I used to be a bit eager to recover with the forward stick bit. Whats a bunt? oh ok I do not want to do that
The only recovery method for a fully developed spin is full forward control input and full opp rudder to the direction of spin.
I defy you to quote one reputable source that advocates that for ANY aircraft type. See my previous post, what you are advocating is putting the aircraft DIRECTLY into an inverted spin in the opposite direction.
Standard spin recovery for most types is as I mentioned earlier.
Forktail hit on an alternate, EMERGENCY recovery that works on most types, known as the "Beggs-Mueller" recovery, though as I understand it, it usually goes-
1-Throttle closed
2-Release Control column/stick
3- Rudder against whichever pedal has the most resistance.
This works upright and inverted and for flat spins.
787 Captain,
If you go and try an Aerobatic manoeuvre/recovery based on what someone says on the internet (and that goes for what I've just said!!) you need your head read. Go and talk to an experienced, reputable Aerobatic instructor (Phil Unicomb at Maitland springs to mind), DO NOT try what M082 has advocated- I've picked bits of Aeroplane out of a tree as a result of that technique!!
787 Captain said:
Now I am really curious. What is this "rotation"? Is it rotation, as in "spin rotation" or rotation about the longitudinal axis, as in roll? Or is it rotation about both the longitudinal and normal axes (i.e. roll and yaw)?
As best I can tell, your usage of "rotation" refers initially to the roll of the wing drop but then also refers to the spin rotation that occurs later.
Aviation has terms such as "roll", "pitch" and "yaw" so that one can describe exactly the motion of an aircraft. Your insistence on using the term "rotation" by itself is confusing.
Yes, i think you have misunderstood something. If a wingdrop occurs then the aircraft is rotating. Yes, stall recovery will stop a spin from developing, but if you get a wingdrop with the stall, the aircraft will be rotating.
As best I can tell, your usage of "rotation" refers initially to the roll of the wing drop but then also refers to the spin rotation that occurs later.
Aviation has terms such as "roll", "pitch" and "yaw" so that one can describe exactly the motion of an aircraft. Your insistence on using the term "rotation" by itself is confusing.
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Absolute and very dangerous RUBBISH!!
I defy you to quote one reputable source that advocates that for ANY aircraft type. See my previous post, what you are advocating is putting the aircraft DIRECTLY into an inverted spin in the opposite direction.
I defy you to quote one reputable source that advocates that for ANY aircraft type. See my previous post, what you are advocating is putting the aircraft DIRECTLY into an inverted spin in the opposite direction.
The whole point in a spin is to get the nose down with elevator to unstall the aerofoil as when a spin develops it will flatten out requiring forward stick. In this circumstance i am talking about a deliberate spin such as an aerobatic manouvre at a safe height, not an unintentional wing drop resulting in an incipient spin, in which standard recovery is still:
Normal Recovery
Full opposite rudder
Speed increasing
Wings level
Nose on the horizon
Regain Lost height
Anyway im not going to get into a post whore competition on here, i have enjoyed spinning for a while now and am still here to have a coldie when i get home!
M082,
Sorry if I was a little abrupt, but you did come on here and rather boldly state that full forwadrd stick was the ONLY way to recover from a developed spin.As I said, an aircraft I was very fond of was lost and two people VERY lucky still to be alive due to using the recovery you talked about.
Full forward stick and full rudder are the control inputs for an inverted spin. The difficult part is that an inverted spin with right rudder actually rotates to the left, meaning that, if you stall the aircraft with a negative angle of attach by using full forward stick in a left-hand spin, the aircraft just keeps on rotating in the same direction. You now have a few seconds to a) recognize this and b) figure out how to recover from an inverted spin.
It is also a bit of a blanket statement to say aircraft flatten out during prolonged spinning. High performance types I've flown such as the Pitts and the Extra 300 actually get steeper as the spin develops. You might also be interested to know that forward stick during a developed spin (particualrly in combination with aileron) PRODUCES a flat spin. The recovery is to go back to full UP elevator to put the aircraft back into a normal spin, then use standard recovery.
I also don't want to get into a Willy-waving contest with you, but I do have a lot of experience flying Aeros in a number of types, and not one has required full forward stick to recover.
Can I honestly suggest you do some research, read a little about what the experts say. As I said, I don't believe you will find one authoritative text which advocates your spin recovery, and the fact that it has worked so far in the type you are flying, doesn't mean it always will or that it won't bite you in a different type.
If you have a Pitts for hire near where you are, get an instructor to show you a cross-over spin. You'll be amazed at how easy it is to go from upright to inverted spin, and how neutral elevator gets you out of both.
Fly safe!
Sorry if I was a little abrupt, but you did come on here and rather boldly state that full forwadrd stick was the ONLY way to recover from a developed spin.As I said, an aircraft I was very fond of was lost and two people VERY lucky still to be alive due to using the recovery you talked about.
Full forward stick and full rudder are the control inputs for an inverted spin. The difficult part is that an inverted spin with right rudder actually rotates to the left, meaning that, if you stall the aircraft with a negative angle of attach by using full forward stick in a left-hand spin, the aircraft just keeps on rotating in the same direction. You now have a few seconds to a) recognize this and b) figure out how to recover from an inverted spin.
It is also a bit of a blanket statement to say aircraft flatten out during prolonged spinning. High performance types I've flown such as the Pitts and the Extra 300 actually get steeper as the spin develops. You might also be interested to know that forward stick during a developed spin (particualrly in combination with aileron) PRODUCES a flat spin. The recovery is to go back to full UP elevator to put the aircraft back into a normal spin, then use standard recovery.
I also don't want to get into a Willy-waving contest with you, but I do have a lot of experience flying Aeros in a number of types, and not one has required full forward stick to recover.
Can I honestly suggest you do some research, read a little about what the experts say. As I said, I don't believe you will find one authoritative text which advocates your spin recovery, and the fact that it has worked so far in the type you are flying, doesn't mean it always will or that it won't bite you in a different type.
If you have a Pitts for hire near where you are, get an instructor to show you a cross-over spin. You'll be amazed at how easy it is to go from upright to inverted spin, and how neutral elevator gets you out of both.
Fly safe!