Why do pilots keep paying for Endorsements?
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Why do pilots keep paying for Endorsements?
Can the pilots out there who have paid for edorsements for the likes of Jetstar or Virgin Blue please explain why? You have qualified yourselves, gone out and done the hard yards to get the hours up, why now pay another 40K on top of that.
This is not meaning to be a wind up, I just don't understand it?
This is not meaning to be a wind up, I just don't understand it?
You have little choice unless you want to remain in your current job, or get into Qantas. Qantas to may well introduce this with their new hires, if so then pilots have absolutely no choice unless they pay the money or go overseas. If you disagree with the policy then don't put your application in and hope that Qantas don't bring in pay for training.
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Because if you want the chance of a decent career in oz at the moment you have to....
Sure you can take the high moral ground and refuse and hope for airlines to drop this, but you will cost yourself more in the future...
Look at it this way, take a job now at JQ or VB, make around $100000 plus super, or stay in a regional or GA and make half as much with NO SENIORITY NO!!!!!
Quick commands at JQ and if you want really big bucks move O/S after gaining valualble experience.
A no brainer I think.............
Sure you can take the high moral ground and refuse and hope for airlines to drop this, but you will cost yourself more in the future...
Look at it this way, take a job now at JQ or VB, make around $100000 plus super, or stay in a regional or GA and make half as much with NO SENIORITY NO!!!!!
Quick commands at JQ and if you want really big bucks move O/S after gaining valualble experience.
A no brainer I think.............
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Neville,
Just because that is what the operators expect, does not mean thats what they will get, note apparently the last round of VB interviwee's were asked how they would feel about being the last group to pay for their endorsements, that my friend is an indicator of what is to come.
Jetfume:
quote"If i need to pay another 70 k to get into a dream job .. so be it
The ones who can't afford it are the ones who it affects , the ones who can
are out there doing it "end quote.
Afford has absolutely nothing to do with it, why don't you just pay them for the job, hang on that is exactly what you are doing.
I do not see IT people paying IT companies to work for them.
If you pay, you are an idiot. If you are an experienced pilot the time will come very very shortly where you won't need to pay anymore.
To the Cadets, do not believe what they say when they promise to give you ICUS and the eventual command, its a pipe dream boys and girls.
Just because that is what the operators expect, does not mean thats what they will get, note apparently the last round of VB interviwee's were asked how they would feel about being the last group to pay for their endorsements, that my friend is an indicator of what is to come.
Jetfume:
quote"If i need to pay another 70 k to get into a dream job .. so be it
The ones who can't afford it are the ones who it affects , the ones who can
are out there doing it "end quote.
Afford has absolutely nothing to do with it, why don't you just pay them for the job, hang on that is exactly what you are doing.
I do not see IT people paying IT companies to work for them.
If you pay, you are an idiot. If you are an experienced pilot the time will come very very shortly where you won't need to pay anymore.
To the Cadets, do not believe what they say when they promise to give you ICUS and the eventual command, its a pipe dream boys and girls.
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Stink Finger, a lilltle narrow minded I think...'
If guys want a jet job now they can pay for it......It's all about choice..
Sure you can wait and hope, and by the way it looks maybe a chance of not having to pay...too much of a gamble for some people..
Calling them idiots is a bit rich....
If guys want a jet job now they can pay for it......It's all about choice..
Sure you can wait and hope, and by the way it looks maybe a chance of not having to pay...too much of a gamble for some people..
Calling them idiots is a bit rich....
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Good one morno.
It's all about greed and self-promotion.
When this first started (in the UK in the late '80s), some airlines started to sell type ratings to newbies, on the promise that it would "probably" lead to a job
with them. Of course, it rarely did, but the airlines noticed that desperate pilots would borrow any amount of money to get the rating, and give themselves a better chance of a job. Of course, the rating was useless without at least 100 hrs or so experience, but people borrowed the money and took the chance. Many failed to find a job, and found themselves owing the wrong end of $100K with no income.
The ever-so-cynical airline management now realised that they could completely eliminate the risk of a recruit failing the course by making the pilot pay for it. If the guy got chopped, it cost the airline nothing - in fact, they probably made money out of him. That saved some airlines millions of dollars.
In the UK, the pilot shortage started to bite and the "paying for an endorsement" rule started to relax in favour of a training bond. The bond gradually became more and more pilot-unfriendly, until it became a bank loan with the pilot's name on the bottom of it.
Bottom line - pilots paying for endorsements was caused by pilots paying for endorsements! Until pilots become a unified group (never happen), or they individually refuse to participate (also never happen), nothing will change. At the end of the day, pilots tend to be fiercely motivated and completely self-centred. Some would say that you have to be. Others would question the sort of pilots that attitude produces...
And the airlines laugh all the way to the bank...
It's all about greed and self-promotion.
When this first started (in the UK in the late '80s), some airlines started to sell type ratings to newbies, on the promise that it would "probably" lead to a job
with them. Of course, it rarely did, but the airlines noticed that desperate pilots would borrow any amount of money to get the rating, and give themselves a better chance of a job. Of course, the rating was useless without at least 100 hrs or so experience, but people borrowed the money and took the chance. Many failed to find a job, and found themselves owing the wrong end of $100K with no income.
The ever-so-cynical airline management now realised that they could completely eliminate the risk of a recruit failing the course by making the pilot pay for it. If the guy got chopped, it cost the airline nothing - in fact, they probably made money out of him. That saved some airlines millions of dollars.
In the UK, the pilot shortage started to bite and the "paying for an endorsement" rule started to relax in favour of a training bond. The bond gradually became more and more pilot-unfriendly, until it became a bank loan with the pilot's name on the bottom of it.
Bottom line - pilots paying for endorsements was caused by pilots paying for endorsements! Until pilots become a unified group (never happen), or they individually refuse to participate (also never happen), nothing will change. At the end of the day, pilots tend to be fiercely motivated and completely self-centred. Some would say that you have to be. Others would question the sort of pilots that attitude produces...
And the airlines laugh all the way to the bank...
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the airlines have themselves to blame for the situation, making the conditions so bad for pilots that no one wants to be one,. now they have a narrow band of pilots willing to pay for a type rating. it is definately not the norm around the world. wake up australia the world has changed.
and pilots, stop paying for type ratings there will be jobs for everyone, don't be the last goose to pay for one!
and pilots, stop paying for type ratings there will be jobs for everyone, don't be the last goose to pay for one!
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Jetfume, i hope i work with you one day, you will know doubt stand out in the crowd.
Do you think many C&T types will appreciate your complete disregard for everyone else and your willingness to cut their throat for their job.
You will be weighed and measured by your peers, somewhat bad news for those that think the self centred approach to life is without some serious consequences.
Do you think many C&T types will appreciate your complete disregard for everyone else and your willingness to cut their throat for their job.
You will be weighed and measured by your peers, somewhat bad news for those that think the self centred approach to life is without some serious consequences.
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Jetfume, your attitude makes me sick. Its not always about number one mate, we live in a society remember, what goes around comes around. Good on you anyway.
As someone with a passion for flying an aviation its very dissapointing as it SEEMS like getting an airline job is coming down to who can afford it and who cant. (maybe it always was about that?)
Getting a CPL and MECIR is already out of reach for many people which in itself is hard to swallow. I can only hope i'll get there one day...
As someone with a passion for flying an aviation its very dissapointing as it SEEMS like getting an airline job is coming down to who can afford it and who cant. (maybe it always was about that?)
Getting a CPL and MECIR is already out of reach for many people which in itself is hard to swallow. I can only hope i'll get there one day...
Nunc est bibendum
I think the answer to the original question goes something like this:
Paying for an endorsement is like using a hooker without 'protection'....it may get you what you want in the short term in reality you're probably a dead man walking.
Of course people like Jetfumes don't consider the ongoing 'cost' to them when they are then forced to pay for an upgrade, change of type, etc, etc. They also don't 'get it' when someone else offers to fly for less, fly more hours for the same money, take their command that they were in line to get because they offered to pay for the upgrade, etc. They complain about how it's 'unfair' and accept zero responsibility for the part they play in it continuing to be so.
Airlines charge people for their endorsements because they can. They do it because people keep stumping up the money. If everyone said 'no' then the airlines wouldn't do it but pilots are too short sighted to see that!
Because people like Jetfumes are stupid enough to keep paying for them.
Of course people like Jetfumes don't consider the ongoing 'cost' to them when they are then forced to pay for an upgrade, change of type, etc, etc. They also don't 'get it' when someone else offers to fly for less, fly more hours for the same money, take their command that they were in line to get because they offered to pay for the upgrade, etc. They complain about how it's 'unfair' and accept zero responsibility for the part they play in it continuing to be so.
Airlines charge people for their endorsements because they can. They do it because people keep stumping up the money. If everyone said 'no' then the airlines wouldn't do it but pilots are too short sighted to see that!
Seasonally Adjusted
Yep , certainly will , I understand that ,however I get to laugh all the way to FL330 or cry on another charter to bum&&&& idaho in a 1960's built ACFT
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I really wish we could keep the debate objective and avoid personal attacks.
There is not one of us here who likes the idea of paying for a type rating. The difference seems to be those who reluctantly consider it, and factor it into their long-term financial decision making, and those who flat out refuse.
I do admire people who make a moral stand on issues like this, but like many others, I personally can't afford to gamble with my options, and I realise that I cannot make a difference. The bed is already made.
When doing the sums, there are situations in which I am far better off to provide my own type rating, and accept a contract on a bigger aircraft, than continue with the status quo and wait for an airline that will provide the training. It is a simple business decision. And yes, like most business decisions, it is selfish.
Shoot me down if you must, I'm just trying to give a bit of balance to the discussion.
There is not one of us here who likes the idea of paying for a type rating. The difference seems to be those who reluctantly consider it, and factor it into their long-term financial decision making, and those who flat out refuse.
I do admire people who make a moral stand on issues like this, but like many others, I personally can't afford to gamble with my options, and I realise that I cannot make a difference. The bed is already made.
When doing the sums, there are situations in which I am far better off to provide my own type rating, and accept a contract on a bigger aircraft, than continue with the status quo and wait for an airline that will provide the training. It is a simple business decision. And yes, like most business decisions, it is selfish.
Shoot me down if you must, I'm just trying to give a bit of balance to the discussion.
Is it possible that after many years of sipping coffee at FL330, you might actually miss flying that 1960's built aircraft?
I think the issue of paying for endorsements is much harder to swallow in Australia (hence the passion shown on the thread) given that you already have spent so much time and effort to get a start. If you walked out of flying school and bought an endorsement (ie Europe) I think it would be slightly more palatable. However in Australia you have already been through the ringer and most guys would not have endorsement money just lying around, so it is only adding insult to injury.
However as said before there is not much you can do about it so either stay where you are in GA or regionals, or somehow find spare 30G.
The point has already been made that airlines and the like charge for endorsements simply because they can. The argument that 'people will always pay for it therefore I might as well do it' is moronic and can be used to 'justify' just about any type of abhorrent behavior.
It doesn't take many standing together to create a positive trend for the rest. The very idea of paying to secure a job is viewed with both disbelief and an expression of horror by my peers and the concept would be met with revolt in other professions.
The current aviation climate is highly conducive to pilots simply saying 'no'. And its happening, right down to the light twin GA charter field. A glance at the plummeting minimums for regionals (250ME cmd anyone?) and talk at places like J* about scrapping the idea of self funded endorsements (since when has an A320/737 been a widebody anyway?) is proof that this is already taking place.
I personally will never pay 40 grand for the "privilege" of working for someone. The entire point of it last time I checked is they pay you. In my view only those with the foresight of a goldfish willingly fork out the money because as keg said, once you start paying, there will be no end to it as you've set the precedent
All that ^^ is my opinion only.
It doesn't take many standing together to create a positive trend for the rest. The very idea of paying to secure a job is viewed with both disbelief and an expression of horror by my peers and the concept would be met with revolt in other professions.
The current aviation climate is highly conducive to pilots simply saying 'no'. And its happening, right down to the light twin GA charter field. A glance at the plummeting minimums for regionals (250ME cmd anyone?) and talk at places like J* about scrapping the idea of self funded endorsements (since when has an A320/737 been a widebody anyway?) is proof that this is already taking place.
I personally will never pay 40 grand for the "privilege" of working for someone. The entire point of it last time I checked is they pay you. In my view only those with the foresight of a goldfish willingly fork out the money because as keg said, once you start paying, there will be no end to it as you've set the precedent
All that ^^ is my opinion only.
Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 22nd May 2007 at 03:01.
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Cloud Cutter gets it...
I'm proud to say I have never paid for any of my type ratings over 20 years of airline flying. Having said that, if I needed a job and the only option was to buy a type rating, I wouldn't hesitate. Jobs don't belong to people with the least resources, and in this world, the person who equips themselves the best for the job market, will get the job - simple as that.
Some of the posters above seem to think that they are being hard done by - well, the simple reality is, that if you want to be a specialist, say in medicine for example, you have to obtain the extra qualifications required. If you don't, or can't, that is nobody elses fault.
Personally, at some point I'm going to go an buy myself an additional type rating on a popular type - call it job insurance!
The people who say that they would never fork over lots of money to work for somebody else, have clearly never attended university or any other higher-learning institution. How much does a good degree cost these days? And what is the purpose of it? Who here thinks that it is perfectly acceptable to fork over a small fortune for a good MBA, the purpose of which is to enable you to work for somebody else? Time to start living in the real world!
If you want to be a professional pilot, you have to face the facts and pay the price. It's peanuts anyway when you consider the earning potential if you succeed... even though it seems like an insurmountable pile of money when you start.
BTW, when I mentioned greed and self-promotion earlier, I meant greed on the part of the airlines, and self-promotion on the part of the pilot. If you want to be a successful pilot, you have to promote yourself (in a professional way). Same goes for any other profession. Being self-centred is an absolute requirement in many employment markets (anything to do with sales, for example). It is only a bad thing if it drives you to the exclusion of all else...
I'm proud to say I have never paid for any of my type ratings over 20 years of airline flying. Having said that, if I needed a job and the only option was to buy a type rating, I wouldn't hesitate. Jobs don't belong to people with the least resources, and in this world, the person who equips themselves the best for the job market, will get the job - simple as that.
Some of the posters above seem to think that they are being hard done by - well, the simple reality is, that if you want to be a specialist, say in medicine for example, you have to obtain the extra qualifications required. If you don't, or can't, that is nobody elses fault.
Personally, at some point I'm going to go an buy myself an additional type rating on a popular type - call it job insurance!
The people who say that they would never fork over lots of money to work for somebody else, have clearly never attended university or any other higher-learning institution. How much does a good degree cost these days? And what is the purpose of it? Who here thinks that it is perfectly acceptable to fork over a small fortune for a good MBA, the purpose of which is to enable you to work for somebody else? Time to start living in the real world!
If you want to be a professional pilot, you have to face the facts and pay the price. It's peanuts anyway when you consider the earning potential if you succeed... even though it seems like an insurmountable pile of money when you start.
BTW, when I mentioned greed and self-promotion earlier, I meant greed on the part of the airlines, and self-promotion on the part of the pilot. If you want to be a successful pilot, you have to promote yourself (in a professional way). Same goes for any other profession. Being self-centred is an absolute requirement in many employment markets (anything to do with sales, for example). It is only a bad thing if it drives you to the exclusion of all else...
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In the "real world" people who get qualifications are paid more for those qualifications such as doctors, lawyers and soon. So I also as a pilot expect to get paid at a level that recognisees the $60k I originally forked out for my licences, the extra maybe $2k per year to keep them current, and if I had to pay for an endorsement I expect to be paid more for that.
The government or unions usually steps in to adjust minimum wages for cost of qualifications, at the moment that doesn't appear (to me) to be happening probably because of the lack of unionism in aviation. IMO it would be hypercritical to condemn people who pay for an endorsement unless you are part of a union that is at least trying to correct some injustices in the industry such as this one. I have no problem with paying for an endorsement as long as they pay me a reasonable amount in excess of the award for buying the endorsement off them
The government or unions usually steps in to adjust minimum wages for cost of qualifications, at the moment that doesn't appear (to me) to be happening probably because of the lack of unionism in aviation. IMO it would be hypercritical to condemn people who pay for an endorsement unless you are part of a union that is at least trying to correct some injustices in the industry such as this one. I have no problem with paying for an endorsement as long as they pay me a reasonable amount in excess of the award for buying the endorsement off them
So, where do you draw the line? Should airlines pay for anything? What about medicals, charts, upgrades, renewals, lunch.
And on a side note, how many doctors pay to become surgeons?
And on a side note, how many doctors pay to become surgeons?
Cloud Cutter gets it...
I'm proud to say I have never paid for any of my type ratings over 20 years of airline flying. Having said that, if I needed a job and the only option was to buy a type rating, I wouldn't hesitate. Jobs don't belong to people with the least resources, and in this world, the person who equips themselves the best for the job market, will get the job - simple as that.
Personally i'd prefer to get the job on merit. I'd prefer my family to be sitting behind the guy who got the job on merit, not the guy with the richest parents. Call it personal preference.
The people who say that they would never fork over lots of money to work for somebody else, have clearly never attended university or any other higher-learning institution. How much does a good degree cost these days? And what is the purpose of it? Who here thinks that it is perfectly acceptable to fork over a small fortune for a good MBA, the purpose of which is to enable you to work for somebody else? Time to start living in the real world!
The difference being a University (which I have attended, thanks anyway) is a facility of learning, an institution that exists for the purpose of being paid to give my qualification. Its not an employer. The same as medical school. What do you think this doctor is going to say upon completion when you tell him he now needs to pay 40 grand simply for the privilege of being allowed to work. That he should simply accept it as a competitive advantage requirement? Why don't I just walk into Qantas tomorrow and throw 200 grand at them and say here, take that, now give me a job. I wonder what kind of culture thats going to promote for my peers.
If you want to be a professional pilot, you have to face the facts and pay the price. It's peanuts anyway when you consider the earning potential if you succeed... even though it seems like an insurmountable pile of money when you start.
For me personally its entirely an issue of principle. I'm lucky in the sense that i'm in a better position than alot of my peers and could comfortably walk in and drop the J* money on the table tomorrow if thats what I wanted but I never will, I completely disagree with the practice and find it horrendously exploitive. When I consider the long term all I see is intelligent young people diverting into other professions because when you look at the $ numbers in aviation they no longer even remotely stack up. All you will end up with is a continually decreasing quality in your airline applicant as the best and brightest choose more rewarding fields. In fact in my view this has already started and pprune is certainly not short of 'are CPL holders getting worse and worse as time goes on?' threads.
I'm proud to say I have never paid for any of my type ratings over 20 years of airline flying. Having said that, if I needed a job and the only option was to buy a type rating, I wouldn't hesitate. Jobs don't belong to people with the least resources, and in this world, the person who equips themselves the best for the job market, will get the job - simple as that.
Personally i'd prefer to get the job on merit. I'd prefer my family to be sitting behind the guy who got the job on merit, not the guy with the richest parents. Call it personal preference.
The people who say that they would never fork over lots of money to work for somebody else, have clearly never attended university or any other higher-learning institution. How much does a good degree cost these days? And what is the purpose of it? Who here thinks that it is perfectly acceptable to fork over a small fortune for a good MBA, the purpose of which is to enable you to work for somebody else? Time to start living in the real world!
The difference being a University (which I have attended, thanks anyway) is a facility of learning, an institution that exists for the purpose of being paid to give my qualification. Its not an employer. The same as medical school. What do you think this doctor is going to say upon completion when you tell him he now needs to pay 40 grand simply for the privilege of being allowed to work. That he should simply accept it as a competitive advantage requirement? Why don't I just walk into Qantas tomorrow and throw 200 grand at them and say here, take that, now give me a job. I wonder what kind of culture thats going to promote for my peers.
If you want to be a professional pilot, you have to face the facts and pay the price. It's peanuts anyway when you consider the earning potential if you succeed... even though it seems like an insurmountable pile of money when you start.
For me personally its entirely an issue of principle. I'm lucky in the sense that i'm in a better position than alot of my peers and could comfortably walk in and drop the J* money on the table tomorrow if thats what I wanted but I never will, I completely disagree with the practice and find it horrendously exploitive. When I consider the long term all I see is intelligent young people diverting into other professions because when you look at the $ numbers in aviation they no longer even remotely stack up. All you will end up with is a continually decreasing quality in your airline applicant as the best and brightest choose more rewarding fields. In fact in my view this has already started and pprune is certainly not short of 'are CPL holders getting worse and worse as time goes on?' threads.
That said i'm actually quite in favour of bonding.
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Everyone knows some people have the will and the means to pay for a type rating, and they continue to do so. That is their choice.
I am not in the position to borrow $40k etc for such a rating, not even the $8000 Skippers et al want.
I am strongly opposed to paying for these jobs when you get paid such a low wage (Skippers) or the certainty of a job is not there (VB JQ).
I will never pay for a type rating in the current climate. If this means I stay in my GA job until whenever then thats fine with me. I am reasonably well paid for my position, but like many others have commitments like house and car etc to pay for which makes it impossible for me to go work for $35k for the likes of Skippers etc.
It is Catch 22. Stay in GA or PAY for a low paid turboprop wage which you cant even live on. At some point the opportunity cost of the next pie in the sky big job becomes too great.
All it would take is 1 in 2 applicants for these jobs to refuse the bond/upfront payment and the airlines would rethink their strategy for recruitment. My opinion only.
Let the pilot shortage continue...it will only improve the pilots job bargaining position.
Z.
I am not in the position to borrow $40k etc for such a rating, not even the $8000 Skippers et al want.
I am strongly opposed to paying for these jobs when you get paid such a low wage (Skippers) or the certainty of a job is not there (VB JQ).
I will never pay for a type rating in the current climate. If this means I stay in my GA job until whenever then thats fine with me. I am reasonably well paid for my position, but like many others have commitments like house and car etc to pay for which makes it impossible for me to go work for $35k for the likes of Skippers etc.
It is Catch 22. Stay in GA or PAY for a low paid turboprop wage which you cant even live on. At some point the opportunity cost of the next pie in the sky big job becomes too great.
All it would take is 1 in 2 applicants for these jobs to refuse the bond/upfront payment and the airlines would rethink their strategy for recruitment. My opinion only.
Let the pilot shortage continue...it will only improve the pilots job bargaining position.
Z.