NVFR - Worth it?
PROs - several.
CONs - can't think of any.
1) Adds to your skill set.
2) Takes the worry out of running late - in some circumstances.
3) Could save your hide one day - "black hole effect".
4) Even if you have an IR there are some circumstances where you cannot legally complete a flight without NVFR.
Nah sorry, can't tell you what they are - but I get quizzed about them on IR renewals every so often - along the lines of "what requirements would you have to meet to undertake a charter into YCSV, arriving 2 hrs after last light". I don't fly charter these days so I don't pay too much attention to things like that.
My recollection is that NVFR used to be a requirement for CPL ???
Dr
CONs - can't think of any.
1) Adds to your skill set.
2) Takes the worry out of running late - in some circumstances.
3) Could save your hide one day - "black hole effect".
4) Even if you have an IR there are some circumstances where you cannot legally complete a flight without NVFR.
Nah sorry, can't tell you what they are - but I get quizzed about them on IR renewals every so often - along the lines of "what requirements would you have to meet to undertake a charter into YCSV, arriving 2 hrs after last light". I don't fly charter these days so I don't pay too much attention to things like that.
My recollection is that NVFR used to be a requirement for CPL ???
Dr
Grandpa Aerotart
FTDK I would think they'd just be the usual light system, back up system, approved person to switch em on, +/- ETA/ATD, two VHFs and PAL or 1 VHF,1 HF and 30 minutes of holding fuel etc etc, blah, blah type requirements rather than having a seperate NVFR rating on top of IR.
CC, nah its more than that.
Dammit! Now I gotta go find it in the regs to convince myself that I am not going senile.
Well, some would argue that I am anyway, but I not completely gone yet.
Dr
Dammit! Now I gotta go find it in the regs to convince myself that I am not going senile.
Well, some would argue that I am anyway, but I not completely gone yet.
Dr
Two ground aids and aircraft equipment, or duplicated acft gear if only the one aid, or an alternate within 1 hr? Something like that maybe, been a while.
CAO Section 40.2.1
para 14.1 - A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in command .... in the following circumstances:
(a) Private and aerial work flights under night VFR procedures provided the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to a night VFR endorsement.
(b) Charter flights under night VFR procedures, provided the following aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) The pilot's aeronautic experience shall include 10 hours cross country flight time using night VFR procedures including a minimum of two navigation exercises (of at least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration). Each exercise shall exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure and shall provide at least one landing at an aerodrome other than that of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground lighting.
(ii) Recent Experience. The pilot's recent experience shall include three take offs and landings by night within the preceding 90 days, and either a night cross country flight (of at least 100 nautical miles or 1 hour duration) within the preceding 6 months or a flight check by night with an approved person also within the preceding 6 months.
On further reflection, I think the question that has been posed to me on renewals is, as the holder of a current MECIR, what requirements would I have to meet in order to conduct a charter under night VFR procedures to YCSV.
Can't remember why you would want to do it as Night VFR rather than IFR.
It is possible to hold a MECIR and NOT meet these requirements. Its the two NavExs that are a problem unless you have done some NVFR.
Dr
para 14.1 - A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in command .... in the following circumstances:
(a) Private and aerial work flights under night VFR procedures provided the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to a night VFR endorsement.
(b) Charter flights under night VFR procedures, provided the following aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) The pilot's aeronautic experience shall include 10 hours cross country flight time using night VFR procedures including a minimum of two navigation exercises (of at least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration). Each exercise shall exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure and shall provide at least one landing at an aerodrome other than that of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground lighting.
(ii) Recent Experience. The pilot's recent experience shall include three take offs and landings by night within the preceding 90 days, and either a night cross country flight (of at least 100 nautical miles or 1 hour duration) within the preceding 6 months or a flight check by night with an approved person also within the preceding 6 months.
On further reflection, I think the question that has been posed to me on renewals is, as the holder of a current MECIR, what requirements would I have to meet in order to conduct a charter under night VFR procedures to YCSV.
Can't remember why you would want to do it as Night VFR rather than IFR.
It is possible to hold a MECIR and NOT meet these requirements. Its the two NavExs that are a problem unless you have done some NVFR.
Dr
Metrosexual
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Enroute
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you get it, PLEASE don't go flying in really dark places, eg places without generally populated areas, overwater, over deserts, known black hole approach airfields etc etc.
The rating will allow you to - but i don't think it would be prudent to excercise it to this degree, unless you had an instrument rating, and were current and proficient.
If you use it to get away, or get home after last light, it's a good rating, and if you fly around populated areas, the view makes it all worthwhile.
Just don't think it is safe to use everywhere after dark.
Enjoy!
The rating will allow you to - but i don't think it would be prudent to excercise it to this degree, unless you had an instrument rating, and were current and proficient.
If you use it to get away, or get home after last light, it's a good rating, and if you fly around populated areas, the view makes it all worthwhile.
Just don't think it is safe to use everywhere after dark.
Enjoy!
Just wondering about the pro's and con's of obtaining a NVFR rating?
Read this thread too
Last edited by bentleg; 20th May 2007 at 07:30. Reason: to add thread ref
Just my 2 cents worth from a flying instructors point of view - if you intend to go on to a multi-engine command instrument rating where you wish to exercise night privileges then do your NVFR. My reasoning is simple - you will need 10 Hours night flight minimum with 5 hours as PIC for the MECIR. The NVFR will give you around the 10 hours and you will then need to acrue 5 hours PIC.
You can do these hours as part of the solo hours required to get your CPL and do them as cross country rather than belting round the circuit for 5 hours! I frequently come across students doing the MECIR who have not done the NVFR (to save money). I can do some of the IF training runs at night to get around 5 hours of night flight but they still have to do 5 hours PIC at night (usually in the circuit) which only adds to the cost.
In short, if you don't want to go CPL & MECIR don't rush the NVFR but if you do want to do those 2 then for the above reasons and those of previous posters, consider the NVFR now.
You can do these hours as part of the solo hours required to get your CPL and do them as cross country rather than belting round the circuit for 5 hours! I frequently come across students doing the MECIR who have not done the NVFR (to save money). I can do some of the IF training runs at night to get around 5 hours of night flight but they still have to do 5 hours PIC at night (usually in the circuit) which only adds to the cost.
In short, if you don't want to go CPL & MECIR don't rush the NVFR but if you do want to do those 2 then for the above reasons and those of previous posters, consider the NVFR now.
I agree cross country at night in a single engine is a crazy thing to do....
Now that is open to some debate!
I don't fly at night in the Bonanza much, but think nothing about launching into pretty hard core IFR.
I have flown 50,000 nm in the Bo in the last couple of years - what's the chance of it sh*tting itself in the next 500?
If you know the aeroplane, particularly its maintenance and operating history, the single engine debate is mostly psychological.
Dr
Now that is open to some debate!
I don't fly at night in the Bonanza much, but think nothing about launching into pretty hard core IFR.
I have flown 50,000 nm in the Bo in the last couple of years - what's the chance of it sh*tting itself in the next 500?
If you know the aeroplane, particularly its maintenance and operating history, the single engine debate is mostly psychological.
Dr
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: here
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If your engine stops in a single at night. Then as you get close to the ground turn the landing lights on and if you don't like what you see turn them off again, thats what I was taught
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Aus
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would highly recommend NVFR. I prefer night to even day flying for various reasons such as smoother air (usually). I disagree that night flying in a single is crazy, it just takes common sense with your flight planning... plan near towns and roads and have mud maps drawn up. At the end of the day you can even get a NVFR in a multi if your that worried about it, but the extra cost is a disadvantage.
I was discussing the NVFR in a single thing a while back with an instructor.
He put to me that there had *never* been a single engine NVFR crash in his memory, or at-least for a long time.
I generally troll the ATSB site to keep up on what's going on and other than that 172 that put down near Hotham in icing conditions recently with 4 POB I couldn't think of an actual incident / fatality...
It seems to me that NVFR flights are generally better planned than Day VFR and that they are usually conducted by a more qualified pilot and as such less issues occur. Of course, as a general rule of thumb if there's fuel in the tanks the engine keeps running... day or night.
He put to me that there had *never* been a single engine NVFR crash in his memory, or at-least for a long time.
I generally troll the ATSB site to keep up on what's going on and other than that 172 that put down near Hotham in icing conditions recently with 4 POB I couldn't think of an actual incident / fatality...
It seems to me that NVFR flights are generally better planned than Day VFR and that they are usually conducted by a more qualified pilot and as such less issues occur. Of course, as a general rule of thumb if there's fuel in the tanks the engine keeps running... day or night.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most notably the one between Mackay and Hamilton Island in a fairly professional outfit too.
The dark hole of no mans land combined with possible cloud and not much IFR experience and the likelyhood of losing orientation seemed to conspire against them that night. If my memory serves me correctly. So not an engine failure.
Another recent one was just off the coast of Caloundra, flew quite ok in the dark until just off the coast, and seemed to have lost it into the sea, again from memory a similar cause perhaps and no engine failure.
Make of this what you will, but I think a non instrument rated NVFR flight should be done very carefully and not treated lightly.
The point about engine outs though seems quite valid, sure its the least preferable time to have one, but not that many NVFR prangs seem to be caused by the donk stopping.
J
The dark hole of no mans land combined with possible cloud and not much IFR experience and the likelyhood of losing orientation seemed to conspire against them that night. If my memory serves me correctly. So not an engine failure.
Another recent one was just off the coast of Caloundra, flew quite ok in the dark until just off the coast, and seemed to have lost it into the sea, again from memory a similar cause perhaps and no engine failure.
Make of this what you will, but I think a non instrument rated NVFR flight should be done very carefully and not treated lightly.
The point about engine outs though seems quite valid, sure its the least preferable time to have one, but not that many NVFR prangs seem to be caused by the donk stopping.
J
There have certainly been NVFR prangs resulting in fatalities, however the only ones that I can recall were classic "black hole" effect prangs. One in particular was a C206 returning from the Birdsville races to Charleville with at least 6 POB - peeled off in the Charleville circuit after flying over the lights of the town. I seem to recall another out Boulia way a number of years ago. The most recent one was the Mooney into the drink off Caloundra mentioned by J430.
An instructor mate of mine had a student peel off over Goondiwindi on a black night and lock onto the controls - he belted the bloke with the fire extinguisher to get his attention.
There are clearing issues associated with NVFR that need to be addressed, but engine failure is not high on the list.
That said I would not launch in the Bo from TL to BN at 10 pm without a really good reason, and I used to always cross Cook Straight as high as I could get - although many locals seemed happy to duck across at 500'.
Dr
An instructor mate of mine had a student peel off over Goondiwindi on a black night and lock onto the controls - he belted the bloke with the fire extinguisher to get his attention.
There are clearing issues associated with NVFR that need to be addressed, but engine failure is not high on the list.
That said I would not launch in the Bo from TL to BN at 10 pm without a really good reason, and I used to always cross Cook Straight as high as I could get - although many locals seemed happy to duck across at 500'.
Dr
Talking about night engine failures - a guy who flys at the same outfit where I fly lighties has had 2, repeat 2, engine failures in C172 at night. 1 was at CN (I think) and the other at PMQ. He's a lucky man that both failures were close to the airport and he landed back on the runway. Not surprisingly he always climbs in the circuit to a safe altitude at night these days!! Sometimes he wonders why nobody wants to go for a fly with him after dark, too. 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to spark up the debate, IMHO the NVFR is with IFR circling approaches the most hazardous flying activity that for many pilots not given the due respect or caution it deserves. The training does include some basic IF however, while there are some ongoing basic currency requirements necessary, when are any proficiency night flying/IF checks undertaken? I have rarely seen a NVFR pilot undergo instrument or night proficiency during biennial AFRs.
There have been a number of NVFR accidents in Australia. One I recall when a C182 crashed at Warnambool several years ago killing all four on board. I also conducted a study of NVFR accidents some time ago during an argument with Dick Smith on the subject and the percentage of fatalities in night accidents far exceeded fatalities in day accident per hours flown.
A previous thread mentioned the Black hole effect; however, when is this phenomona or other any illusion such as vestibular illusions, autokinesis, false horizons etc revisited or even taught during the rating.
The NVFR was really only meant to recover aircraft after last light yet we have aircraft flying at will over the GAFA pitch black, no horizon and with limited night flying exerience - scary stuff!!
Sadly we have repeated this with the Private Pilot IR. While I have no issue with the competencies required to obtain a license I have grave concerns that there are no further proficiency requirements laid down unlike the CIR.
Currency yes, proficiency no. We all at some stage fall into bad habits unless your the perfect pilot (then you should NOT be flying). Just like a golfer needs his/her swing adjusted every now and again, flying proficiency need to be assessed from time to time to iron out any bad habits or faults.
There have been a number of NVFR accidents in Australia. One I recall when a C182 crashed at Warnambool several years ago killing all four on board. I also conducted a study of NVFR accidents some time ago during an argument with Dick Smith on the subject and the percentage of fatalities in night accidents far exceeded fatalities in day accident per hours flown.
A previous thread mentioned the Black hole effect; however, when is this phenomona or other any illusion such as vestibular illusions, autokinesis, false horizons etc revisited or even taught during the rating.
The NVFR was really only meant to recover aircraft after last light yet we have aircraft flying at will over the GAFA pitch black, no horizon and with limited night flying exerience - scary stuff!!
Sadly we have repeated this with the Private Pilot IR. While I have no issue with the competencies required to obtain a license I have grave concerns that there are no further proficiency requirements laid down unlike the CIR.
Currency yes, proficiency no. We all at some stage fall into bad habits unless your the perfect pilot (then you should NOT be flying). Just like a golfer needs his/her swing adjusted every now and again, flying proficiency need to be assessed from time to time to iron out any bad habits or faults.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alice Springs
One dark night two men were doing circuts, and just after liftoff there was a power cut, and the runway lights went off, but so did all the town lights too, leaving them with no visual cues at all. They were both experienced CPL holders, but they crashed straight ahead.
Dark nights are serious stuff, regardless of how mwny engines you have. NVFR is only "visual" if you have a moonlight night, or a lot of city lights.
I do not know of any NVFR fatalities in Australia that were the result of an engine failure. But that black hole is always waiting. We always knew where the Stuart highway was on dark nights.
Dark nights are serious stuff, regardless of how mwny engines you have. NVFR is only "visual" if you have a moonlight night, or a lot of city lights.
I do not know of any NVFR fatalities in Australia that were the result of an engine failure. But that black hole is always waiting. We always knew where the Stuart highway was on dark nights.