Question re Flight Following
Thread Starter
Question re Flight Following
For the ATC buffs and or anyone else...
I put in a flight plan on the Internet. VFR, Moorabbin, Lilydale - Narromine direct, 9,500ft. No SAR logged.
Got clearance into CTA and maintened 9,500ft.
About to depart CTA and requested Flight Following. Keep squawk code.
Cruised for many miles with many frequency changes given to me, like IFR.
Passenger decides they need a pee, so call ATC and tell them diverting to Temora and shall call again when airborne in around 25 mins.
Taxiing at Temora when landing, Virgin Jet calls telling me ATC is looking for me. Virgin Jet calls back (relays) to Melb Cent and tells them I'm on the ground safely at Temora (I could hear them call them back).
Quick pee break and look at Museum Tarmac aircraft.
Taxiing out again and aircrat inbound hears my rego and tells me that Melb centre is again looking for me.
I call Melb Centre to tell them I'm departing Temora.
Phone call whilst taxiing out. It's AUSSAR. Wanting to know if I am alive and well as Melb centre told them I had gone over my SAR time.
So how does this work? I never logged a SAR time. Did 'flight following' log a SAR time on my behalf? If so, where did they get my SAR time from? Why did they not cancel it when I said I was diverting, perhaps as I didn't say the words "cancel SAR?" Should I have called with an amended SAR time for a SAR time that I never put into the system????
Airborne again, call Melb Centre and tell them flight following is too complicated for this VFR pilot, I'd like to cancel it and go back to my trusty 1200.
Squarker.
I put in a flight plan on the Internet. VFR, Moorabbin, Lilydale - Narromine direct, 9,500ft. No SAR logged.
Got clearance into CTA and maintened 9,500ft.
About to depart CTA and requested Flight Following. Keep squawk code.
Cruised for many miles with many frequency changes given to me, like IFR.
Passenger decides they need a pee, so call ATC and tell them diverting to Temora and shall call again when airborne in around 25 mins.
Taxiing at Temora when landing, Virgin Jet calls telling me ATC is looking for me. Virgin Jet calls back (relays) to Melb Cent and tells them I'm on the ground safely at Temora (I could hear them call them back).
Quick pee break and look at Museum Tarmac aircraft.
Taxiing out again and aircrat inbound hears my rego and tells me that Melb centre is again looking for me.
I call Melb Centre to tell them I'm departing Temora.
Phone call whilst taxiing out. It's AUSSAR. Wanting to know if I am alive and well as Melb centre told them I had gone over my SAR time.
So how does this work? I never logged a SAR time. Did 'flight following' log a SAR time on my behalf? If so, where did they get my SAR time from? Why did they not cancel it when I said I was diverting, perhaps as I didn't say the words "cancel SAR?" Should I have called with an amended SAR time for a SAR time that I never put into the system????
Airborne again, call Melb Centre and tell them flight following is too complicated for this VFR pilot, I'd like to cancel it and go back to my trusty 1200.
Squarker.
Squawk
For what its worth (and some in here would say "not much"), I would have done exactly the same as you.
I have never used Flight Following because:
1) I usually fly on an IFR plan
2) Never really been too sure about it
I was not aware that there was any SAR issues specifically associated with Flight Following. I thought it was more about separation and traffic advisories.
I think it is just another example of how all of the continually changing rules have left a bunch of us not too damn sure of how some of this stuff works.
I had an interesting experience going into Redcliffe on an IFR plan. On descent in VMC over Maroochydore ATC said that they could only desccent my lower (can't remember the Alt) if I changed to VFR. I did so. When I got to Redcliffe I tried to cancel my Sarwatch (cause I thought I was flying a VFR leg on an IFR plan - as per the old days), only to be told that my Sarwatch was cancelled when I changed to VFR. Interesting! I would have thought I should have been asked if I wanted to nominate a Sartime!
Dr
For what its worth (and some in here would say "not much"), I would have done exactly the same as you.
I have never used Flight Following because:
1) I usually fly on an IFR plan
2) Never really been too sure about it
I was not aware that there was any SAR issues specifically associated with Flight Following. I thought it was more about separation and traffic advisories.
I think it is just another example of how all of the continually changing rules have left a bunch of us not too damn sure of how some of this stuff works.
I had an interesting experience going into Redcliffe on an IFR plan. On descent in VMC over Maroochydore ATC said that they could only desccent my lower (can't remember the Alt) if I changed to VFR. I did so. When I got to Redcliffe I tried to cancel my Sarwatch (cause I thought I was flying a VFR leg on an IFR plan - as per the old days), only to be told that my Sarwatch was cancelled when I changed to VFR. Interesting! I would have thought I should have been asked if I wanted to nominate a Sartime!
Dr
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I thought flight following was a radar service, and as such should have been terminated withe the phrase "radar service terminated" on descent to Temora.
Mind you I am not an ATC'er and usually fly IFR.
Mind you I am not an ATC'er and usually fly IFR.
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You said you were landing and expect to depart again in 25 minutes, did ATC tell you, "Radar service terminated." If so the service is over and you would be on your own and no further contact required.
If they didn't then they were continuing to hold a sarwatch on you, and looking out for traffic for you and expecting you to be monitoring the ATC frequency. The "radar service terminated" is as important as "sartime cancelled", we can't just ignore you if you just disappear.
Haven't tried the service myself yet, too many CTAF in my area.
If they didn't then they were continuing to hold a sarwatch on you, and looking out for traffic for you and expecting you to be monitoring the ATC frequency. The "radar service terminated" is as important as "sartime cancelled", we can't just ignore you if you just disappear.
Haven't tried the service myself yet, too many CTAF in my area.
Thread Starter
They didn't terminate me... so to speak.
True about the Sarwatch, however as I said I don't know where the SARTIME came from in the first place...
True about the Sarwatch, however as I said I don't know where the SARTIME came from in the first place...
Thread Starter
Flight Following is a service that seems to only have come around in the last year or so.
It's radar services outside controlled airspace whilst you are still on radar. If you are departing CTA you'll probably keep your code. If you are outside CTA from the start they will 'bag and tag' (hope I've got that right) you on code 1200.
They'll keep a sartime, give traffic updates, footy scores and anything else you may require. If you change altitudes they will generally call you also. I got a call from them recently, I was at 7,500ft and climbed towards 9,500ft... they said "VX-ABC I see you've 'drifted' up to 9,500ft, there is no conflicting traffic at 9,500ft."
I'm sure there's a website somewhere about it... it's a good service. Nice and reassuring for your passengers too to know that you are being watched.
It's radar services outside controlled airspace whilst you are still on radar. If you are departing CTA you'll probably keep your code. If you are outside CTA from the start they will 'bag and tag' (hope I've got that right) you on code 1200.
They'll keep a sartime, give traffic updates, footy scores and anything else you may require. If you change altitudes they will generally call you also. I got a call from them recently, I was at 7,500ft and climbed towards 9,500ft... they said "VX-ABC I see you've 'drifted' up to 9,500ft, there is no conflicting traffic at 9,500ft."
I'm sure there's a website somewhere about it... it's a good service. Nice and reassuring for your passengers too to know that you are being watched.
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I'm not an enroute controller but I'll do my best. It seems strange that radar services weren't terminated in this case when you were on decent. You could have then requested flight following again when airbourne. Maybe the controller was not busy and happy to provide the service the whole time.
You DO NOT have to have submitted a SAR time for ATC to hold SAR on you. Whenever you are opperating in CTA it is the controllers responsibility that you keep chugging along safely. In my case (regional tower) if I ask you to report clear of CTA (even as a VFR) and you don't then I assume something's up and I commence SAR action. If you happen to be in radar coverage and there's a 1200 paint where I expect you to be we might assume radio failure but outside radar coverage we assume the worst. This involves advising AUSSAR and commencing SAR action (after appropriate comms checks etc of course). The times may differ slightly depending on the situation but generally comms checks commence 3min after we expect you to have called and SAR action 10min after. So you can see why AUSSAR were involved even after a 25min stop.
This is different to you nominating a VFR SAR time but the result is the same. If you nominate but don't cancel in time Flightwatch will come looking for you (instead of ATC) and then advise AUSSAR if no joy.
Hope that helps.
B
You DO NOT have to have submitted a SAR time for ATC to hold SAR on you. Whenever you are opperating in CTA it is the controllers responsibility that you keep chugging along safely. In my case (regional tower) if I ask you to report clear of CTA (even as a VFR) and you don't then I assume something's up and I commence SAR action. If you happen to be in radar coverage and there's a 1200 paint where I expect you to be we might assume radio failure but outside radar coverage we assume the worst. This involves advising AUSSAR and commencing SAR action (after appropriate comms checks etc of course). The times may differ slightly depending on the situation but generally comms checks commence 3min after we expect you to have called and SAR action 10min after. So you can see why AUSSAR were involved even after a 25min stop.
This is different to you nominating a VFR SAR time but the result is the same. If you nominate but don't cancel in time Flightwatch will come looking for you (instead of ATC) and then advise AUSSAR if no joy.
Hope that helps.
B
Thread Starter
Well thanks B, that helps to clear things up a bit. I was a little confused about the SAR bit, but based on what you're saying, SAR time is essentially irrelavant as once I disappear, you start looking. The clever thing to do for this flight would have been to ensure that flight following was cancelled with a clear termination request and then to reinitiate later. When AUSSAR called they said I'd overshot my SAR time, but that was probably a figure of speach and technically I hadn't done that. It all makes sense now.
Flight Following is a service that seems to only have come around in the last year or so. "It's radar services outside controlled airspace whilst you are still on radar. If you are departing CTA you'll probably keep your code. If you are outside CTA from the start they will 'bag and tag' (hope I've got that right) you on code 1200. They'll keep a sartime, give traffic updates, footy scores and anything else you may require. If you change altitudes they will generally call you also. I got a call from them recently, I was at 7,500ft and climbed towards 9,500ft... they said "VX-ABC I see you've 'drifted' up to 9,500ft, there is no conflicting traffic at 9,500ft." I'm sure there's a website somewhere about it... it's a good service. Nice and reassuring for your passengers too to know that you are being watched."
As someone who is old enough to have been flying around in the "olden days" when even VFR flights could go full reporting, I don't know why we don't go back to a similar system - then everyone might know what is going on.
Flight Following appears to be very similar to the old full reporting (except you don't report cause they have you on radar anyway).
These days it is just so much easier to get weather and notams and submit a flightplan on the internet.
For a period there it seemed like ATC didn't want to know anything about you if you were VFR.
You could jump in you aeroplane at somewhere like YBTL and just call up an ask for a clearance to exit the zone - minimum of fuss and bother. Now you get "Standby while I put your details in the system" - and you wait 5 min for a clearance.
Now try flying VFR from Ingham to Innisfail at 6500. When you get to about Dunk Is, ATC start to get really nervous that you are going to penetrate CS airspace, and they start calling you.
It seems to me that the the ATC system is now set up for Recreation Pilots who generally stay down low, are usually in something slow and don't usually interact with controlled airspace, and the IFR stuff.
If you are on an IFR plan it doesn't make much difference if you are in a 172 or 747, you get treated pretty much the same (except for some priorities).
The group that appear to have been forgotten are the private (and commercial) VFR operations that are using an aircraft for business or pleasure to go somewhere.
I am fortunate these days that I have a capable IFR aircraft, and generally don't have to pay the charges associated with operating on an IFR plan myself. However, for the first ten years of my flying career I used my licence for business related travel all over Qld - VFR.
Just make "Flight Following" the same as the old "Full Reporting" and life would be a great deal simpler for VFR pilots and ATC.
Dr
As someone who is old enough to have been flying around in the "olden days" when even VFR flights could go full reporting, I don't know why we don't go back to a similar system - then everyone might know what is going on.
Flight Following appears to be very similar to the old full reporting (except you don't report cause they have you on radar anyway).
These days it is just so much easier to get weather and notams and submit a flightplan on the internet.
For a period there it seemed like ATC didn't want to know anything about you if you were VFR.
You could jump in you aeroplane at somewhere like YBTL and just call up an ask for a clearance to exit the zone - minimum of fuss and bother. Now you get "Standby while I put your details in the system" - and you wait 5 min for a clearance.
Now try flying VFR from Ingham to Innisfail at 6500. When you get to about Dunk Is, ATC start to get really nervous that you are going to penetrate CS airspace, and they start calling you.
It seems to me that the the ATC system is now set up for Recreation Pilots who generally stay down low, are usually in something slow and don't usually interact with controlled airspace, and the IFR stuff.
If you are on an IFR plan it doesn't make much difference if you are in a 172 or 747, you get treated pretty much the same (except for some priorities).
The group that appear to have been forgotten are the private (and commercial) VFR operations that are using an aircraft for business or pleasure to go somewhere.
I am fortunate these days that I have a capable IFR aircraft, and generally don't have to pay the charges associated with operating on an IFR plan myself. However, for the first ten years of my flying career I used my licence for business related travel all over Qld - VFR.
Just make "Flight Following" the same as the old "Full Reporting" and life would be a great deal simpler for VFR pilots and ATC.
Dr
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From what I remember of the information package that was sent out about 12-18 months ago...
Flight following is an on-going Traffic Information Service to VFR aircraft outside controlled airspace within SSR radar coverage. Can also be used for navigation assistance. Is subject to ATC workload etc etc.
Is started on request available and ATC advise "XXX identified". Can be terminated by pilot or ATC by phrase "Radar Services (or Identification)Terminate" (for pilot. During that time you're meant to maintain 2 way communiaction with ATC.
My understanding about SAR requirements is that you are not necessarily subject to SARWATCH by ATC. However if you do not respond to radio calls by ATC under flightwatch a SAR phase MAY be declared. This is why flight following should be cancelled where 2 way comms cannot be maintained (switching to CTAF).
Additionally, if you nominate a SARTIME on your flightplan then it remains valid as it is kept by CENSAR and not ATC. If you request and subsequently cancel flight following, a SARTIME nominated to CENSAR will remain active.
So not respoding to ATC means you are not contactable under SARWATCH and you can expect a phone call. Likewise busting your SARTIME will trigger alarms at CENSAR and make your phone ring if you go past that.
Like I said, this is how I remember from the publication some time ago. Oh and I'm not a controller. If there is anything I have incorrectly posted, my apologies and look forward to being corrected...politely.
Oh and the traffic information is supplied based on what you tell ATC you are doing. Because you're outside controlled airspace you can still do whatever you want. I usually advise ATC if I am about to do anything different so that they can see if they need to pass me traffic. This means I do not rely on them noticing I am doing something different and getting them off-guard.
Cheers.
Flight following is an on-going Traffic Information Service to VFR aircraft outside controlled airspace within SSR radar coverage. Can also be used for navigation assistance. Is subject to ATC workload etc etc.
Is started on request available and ATC advise "XXX identified". Can be terminated by pilot or ATC by phrase "Radar Services (or Identification)Terminate" (for pilot. During that time you're meant to maintain 2 way communiaction with ATC.
My understanding about SAR requirements is that you are not necessarily subject to SARWATCH by ATC. However if you do not respond to radio calls by ATC under flightwatch a SAR phase MAY be declared. This is why flight following should be cancelled where 2 way comms cannot be maintained (switching to CTAF).
Additionally, if you nominate a SARTIME on your flightplan then it remains valid as it is kept by CENSAR and not ATC. If you request and subsequently cancel flight following, a SARTIME nominated to CENSAR will remain active.
So not respoding to ATC means you are not contactable under SARWATCH and you can expect a phone call. Likewise busting your SARTIME will trigger alarms at CENSAR and make your phone ring if you go past that.
Like I said, this is how I remember from the publication some time ago. Oh and I'm not a controller. If there is anything I have incorrectly posted, my apologies and look forward to being corrected...politely.
Oh and the traffic information is supplied based on what you tell ATC you are doing. Because you're outside controlled airspace you can still do whatever you want. I usually advise ATC if I am about to do anything different so that they can see if they need to pass me traffic. This means I do not rely on them noticing I am doing something different and getting them off-guard.
Cheers.
Last edited by vh_ajm; 18th Apr 2007 at 02:03. Reason: Last paragraph
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Flight following is an on-going Traffic Information Service to VFR aircraft outside controlled airspace within SSR radar coverage.
I would urge as many VFR's to use it as possible...
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Squawk7700
My thoughts on this is that by saying
you have infact nominated a SAR time for departure. Maybe you didn't intend it as such, but in todays climate of liability, you could imagine the response if you did infact have an accident and noone did or knew anything about it.
My thoughts on this is that by saying
shall call again when airborne in around 25 mins
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VFR Flight following is damn good service and it also means if buzzing along at say 8500 in E or G, you will be helped along with traffic, and you are also obliged to be on the ATC frequency should you need them or they need to talk to you.
I have been vectores around Active Military Restricted zones (even though my GPS had it all under control) and even helped once give RPT an unobstructed path by just keeping out of their way, works well for any longer and above say 4500' trips.
J
I have been vectores around Active Military Restricted zones (even though my GPS had it all under control) and even helped once give RPT an unobstructed path by just keeping out of their way, works well for any longer and above say 4500' trips.
J
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AIP GEN 3.3 2.16.12 Whilst receiving a RIS, the pilot must:
a. maintain a continuous listening watch with ATC and advise prior to leaving the frequency; and
b. advise ATC prior to any changes to track or level.
a. maintain a continuous listening watch with ATC and advise prior to leaving the frequency; and
b. advise ATC prior to any changes to track or level.
From a enroute ATC perspective, subject to workload, I really like giving the RIS in G and particularly E as it increases my ability to assess the VFR traffic in relation to the IFR; i.e. I know your altitude (it’s verified not just painting) and I know you’re not going to change course without telling me.
Please don’t be put off by a single ‘bad’ experience, I really don’t see anything here as a problem it’s in fact the system working. The more we do RIS (flight following) the better we all get; ATC and pilots; Call for flight following when ever you can would be my advice, don’t get upset if the ATC says “RADAR SERVICE NOT AVAILABLE” cause that’s the system working too.
SARTIME for departure is not applicable to RIS; the RIS is only active when you are on radar; censar manages ETD for SAR and they are who you should still use for that service.
Last edited by Blockla; 18th Apr 2007 at 07:00.
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Thanks to all, its good to read some really informative posts around here
As a student pilot on a first solo Xcountry nav it would be nice (reassuring) to know there is at least SOMEONE watching over you.
As a student pilot on a first solo Xcountry nav it would be nice (reassuring) to know there is at least SOMEONE watching over you.
Was out of Essendon the other day via westgate OTCA and tracking for Mildura. As I went past westgate I called up Melbourne radar and asked for a clearance direct Mildura 9'500 (no plan in the system). They came back with a clearance within 3 or 4 minutes.
Once outside the zone Melbourne departures (might've been centre by then) asked me to remain on the frequency and continue squawking the code. Said they would give me traffic advisories if required.
And indeed they did, plus the required frequency changes at the appropriate places. Just past Ouyen I'd faded from radar coverage and services were terminated, squawk 1200 and did I want to nominate a sartime for arrival at Mildura? No thanks (was only 18 minutes out). I don't file IFR all that much these days, but the service provided was basically the same. I was surprised to be offered flight following as I hadn't asked for it. In fact they didn't ask me, they just seemed to do it as a matter of course. I'll use it again next time. Maybe one of the ATCer's could enlighten me on the flight following policy. As in when and how it's provided.
As I said above, I hadn't asked for the service.
Once outside the zone Melbourne departures (might've been centre by then) asked me to remain on the frequency and continue squawking the code. Said they would give me traffic advisories if required.
And indeed they did, plus the required frequency changes at the appropriate places. Just past Ouyen I'd faded from radar coverage and services were terminated, squawk 1200 and did I want to nominate a sartime for arrival at Mildura? No thanks (was only 18 minutes out). I don't file IFR all that much these days, but the service provided was basically the same. I was surprised to be offered flight following as I hadn't asked for it. In fact they didn't ask me, they just seemed to do it as a matter of course. I'll use it again next time. Maybe one of the ATCer's could enlighten me on the flight following policy. As in when and how it's provided.
As I said above, I hadn't asked for the service.
Slight topic creep...
It's been 8 years since I left Oz so I'm mildly curious about when Oz changed from TXDR code 2000 for VFR to Code 1200? Mind you, buggered if I know why Code 1200 wasn't used in the first place since the object was to (mostly) replicate the US system.
VFR flight following in the US is a wonderful service with the caveat about when it's available (mostly). Traffic advisories, enroute PRD's that become active, clearances through B, C, D & PRD airspace or vectored around them, Wx advice & avoidance etc.
Similarly to cancelling IFR you have to ensure you cancel flight following or the SAR wheels start turning. Usually by radio but via phone call once on the (ahem) ground* is also used. Unlike Oz's old FS based FullSAR sysem that was still useable if HF was the only comms, it's not available outside radar coverage - admittedly not too much of a problem in the continental US - but I don't think in the Oz situation it's viable as a complete replacement the now defunct FS based FullSAR service. Maybe if ADS-B gets going in the non-radar areas it would be a match. Will ADS-B have ground level coverage that will allow a SARWATCH from taxiing to airborne?
*How many pilots don't have a mobile phone with them in-flight nowdays...
It's been 8 years since I left Oz so I'm mildly curious about when Oz changed from TXDR code 2000 for VFR to Code 1200? Mind you, buggered if I know why Code 1200 wasn't used in the first place since the object was to (mostly) replicate the US system.
VFR flight following in the US is a wonderful service with the caveat about when it's available (mostly). Traffic advisories, enroute PRD's that become active, clearances through B, C, D & PRD airspace or vectored around them, Wx advice & avoidance etc.
Similarly to cancelling IFR you have to ensure you cancel flight following or the SAR wheels start turning. Usually by radio but via phone call once on the (ahem) ground* is also used. Unlike Oz's old FS based FullSAR sysem that was still useable if HF was the only comms, it's not available outside radar coverage - admittedly not too much of a problem in the continental US - but I don't think in the Oz situation it's viable as a complete replacement the now defunct FS based FullSAR service. Maybe if ADS-B gets going in the non-radar areas it would be a match. Will ADS-B have ground level coverage that will allow a SARWATCH from taxiing to airborne?
*How many pilots don't have a mobile phone with them in-flight nowdays...
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 19th Apr 2007 at 02:39.
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Budgie,
When: Whenever you want it, when you are VFR usually OCTA.
How: In radar coverage, the service will be terminated if you drop off radar coverage, but a controller will tend to keep an eye out for your track in case you re-appear.
Can't speak for other controllers but I do sectors that include class g directed traffic information. I'd prefer that vfr call me and ask for flight following. Makes it easier to provide info to both you and the high performance RPT that come through.
Unfortunately a high profile person that 'dabbles' in aviation has told vfr's to shut up and say nothing on centre frequency which leads, in my opinion to them not listening as well.
Don't think I've ever knocked back a request for Flight Following, in fact I've asked vfr's exiting class c airspace if they want to continue on a Flight Following basis. I'd say most controllers would be the same?
It does make it a hell of a lot easier if you have submitted a plan though
When: Whenever you want it, when you are VFR usually OCTA.
How: In radar coverage, the service will be terminated if you drop off radar coverage, but a controller will tend to keep an eye out for your track in case you re-appear.
Can't speak for other controllers but I do sectors that include class g directed traffic information. I'd prefer that vfr call me and ask for flight following. Makes it easier to provide info to both you and the high performance RPT that come through.
Unfortunately a high profile person that 'dabbles' in aviation has told vfr's to shut up and say nothing on centre frequency which leads, in my opinion to them not listening as well.
Don't think I've ever knocked back a request for Flight Following, in fact I've asked vfr's exiting class c airspace if they want to continue on a Flight Following basis. I'd say most controllers would be the same?
It does make it a hell of a lot easier if you have submitted a plan though
Thread Starter
Anyone would think you were referring to Mr. Smith...
Personally I'd set a limit of 100+ miles or something perhaps. No point initiating flight following for a quick 50 mile jaunt.
From ATC perspective, what distance would you say would be a good starting point? (Sorry if that's a silly question)
Personally I'd set a limit of 100+ miles or something perhaps. No point initiating flight following for a quick 50 mile jaunt.
From ATC perspective, what distance would you say would be a good starting point? (Sorry if that's a silly question)