Still to many Pilots?
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Because in the real world (ie outside Oz/NZ), you get hired in the rank that you hold, unless moving to a much larger type, or unless you are an inexperienced captain.
I would consider a 737/A320 to be quite a jump up from a 146.
It is mostly in the South Pacific that you get this "must join at the bottom" bull. It is a rite of passage in OZ/NZ aviation, with no logical basis.
More to the point, if there was really a shortage, there would be no requirement to put highly experienced commanders in the RHS.
More to the point, if there was really a shortage, there would be no requirement to put highly experienced commanders in the RHS.
So you say, there you have it, no shortage. Well, no, look at this sector in the past, we are talking about Australia specifically. There is a shortage in Australian terms.
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I would consider a 737/A320 to be quite a jump up from a 146.
why when there are plenty of upgradable FOs suitable for the rank would you hire over the top?
Meanwhile, your experienced guy is forced to start at the bottom, for no good reason other than company policy, honed by years of militant unionism, and the somewhat odd idea that the F/Os in the company have a god-given right to the next command slot that becomes available. In real life, a lot of these guys are unwilling to take the pay drop, and are lost to the industry forever.
It is the only industry I can think of where new hires must start at the bottom, regardless of their experience or previous rank. Try that one in a hospital, software company, police force, or even the armed forces. Never happens.
Outside the parochial boundries of Oceania, the world has moved on. Hence the progressive LoCo's I mentioned have long since abandoned the practices that exist here... and we haven't even discussed the good old "must have 50 hours recent NZ IF to be considered" crap.
The benefits of a pilot sitting in both seats of a particular aircraft should also not be underestimated..
Last edited by remoak; 28th Mar 2007 at 14:49.
remoak, why don't you quit your whinging bitching attitude, and go over to Europe/ME/Asia if you're so pissed off with our system down here??
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remoak, why don't you quit your whinging bitching attitude, and go over to Europe/ME/Asia if you're so pissed off with our system down here??
Remoak...I here you mate
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Remoak.
How did you get a command? Didn't you start as an F/O, move your way up to command? But now that your a Captain, all the guys moving up the ladder (just as you did, I expect), can now get stuffed because you want a big fat Pay Check and are not prepared to sit in the RHS. Am I right?
How did you get a command? Didn't you start as an F/O, move your way up to command? But now that your a Captain, all the guys moving up the ladder (just as you did, I expect), can now get stuffed because you want a big fat Pay Check and are not prepared to sit in the RHS. Am I right?
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Remoak, for a sensible answer 
;
Originally you said:
I could also say, what is hard about a 777? Only two engines, simple systems, stable, no real vices. Yet I would be kidding myself suggesting it isn't a 'larger type'. The same for 146 vs 737, thats the point I was making.
Now that is interesting. Most organisations that are crying for skippers, are hiring captains (mostly regionals). The companies that aren't, at least where I am, have no problem with inexperience, and your 10000hrs would be dwarfed.
Last time I checked the promotion wasn't just a signature on a piece of paper. Don't forget that in most cases these F/Os have thousands of hours on type, while mr 'I've got 6000hrs in the LHS' has just completed his endorsement.
I don't think you thought about this one. Every time an F/O is upgraded there is the 'potential' for this to happen, whether they hire experienced captains directly or not. Incidently this also happens in Europe, Asia and the Middle East! The only solution would be to never upgrade F/Os. Thats fair....
;
It isn't. What is hard about a 737? Only two engines, simple systems, stable, no real vices. And the A320 is even easier. I have done three sim checks on "proper" 737 sims and aced them all - and I'm not even an ace.
unless moving to a much larger type
There are plenty of operations in both countries that are crying out for some experience in the LHS
they would rather promote an F/O who has the bare minimum experience necessary to hold a command
So now you have a situation where a new captain with the bare minimum requirement, is potentially flying with a brand new F/O.
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Henry Winkler
Nope. You are only seeing one small part of the issue. It isn't JUST about "me me me".
podbreak
The 146-200 has a MTOW of around 42,000kg. The original 737 had a MTOW of 42,411kg, and the type rating makes no distinction between the variants. So how is the 737, per se, much larger than the 146? The later versions obviously are, but the extra size makes little difference to the handling characteristics of the aircraft, so makes little practical difference (or so my 737 buddies tell me).
It is interesting to me that Airbus went for commonality in it's cockpit design, precisely so that pilots could transition easily between the types - even the ATR was designed with the entire Airbus family in mind. They get that handling these aircraft has little to do with mass. It isn't like the old days, where transitioning from a small jet (say a 727) to a larger one (say a DC10) involved a completely new layout and systems design. Even worse if you were transitioning from an F27 or similar to ANY jet...
...which is all fine and dandy, but it wasn't my point. I am talking about the operations where they would RATHER promote a person with the minimum possible experience, than hire a guy with heaps of it, including a lot of time on type (and the reasons why).
Yeah, I really did think about it. The point is that if you have a lot of inexperienced captains flying with a lot of inexperienced F/Os, the risk goes up - the holes in the swiss cheese. That is why many aviation authorities insist that there be a depth of experience in the LHS. Most of the LoCos in Europe have had this issue, and it why they were forced into large DEC campaigns. It would not surprise me at all if CASA were monitoring the experience levels at VB. The UK CAA have a ratio (don't know what it is) of experienced captains vs. new captains that they apply. I had my own promotion slowed several times because of this - the airline was forced to hire DEC rather than promote.
The difference is that the JAR nations (well, most of them) put safety over the "rights" of the pilot to progress at the most rapid possible rate. The reverse is true down here, particularly in NZ. It isn't an issue yet, because the experience base is high, but it could well become an issue in the future.
I'd still like someone to explain why the airline industry downunder works this way, when virtually no other industry does. In most industries, promotion is on merit, ability, and experience. The UK LoCos do this now, and their pilots seem fine with it. It is written into your T's and C's that there is no automatic right to promotion, in most UK airlines.
The reason why it will never change down here is the same basic reason that '89 happened... hmmm perhaps I shouldn't start that one again...
Am I right?
podbreak
The same for 146 vs 737, thats the point I was making.
It is interesting to me that Airbus went for commonality in it's cockpit design, precisely so that pilots could transition easily between the types - even the ATR was designed with the entire Airbus family in mind. They get that handling these aircraft has little to do with mass. It isn't like the old days, where transitioning from a small jet (say a 727) to a larger one (say a DC10) involved a completely new layout and systems design. Even worse if you were transitioning from an F27 or similar to ANY jet...
Don't forget that in most cases these F/Os have thousands of hours on type, while mr 'I've got 6000hrs in the LHS' has just completed his endorsement.
I don't think you thought about this one. Every time an F/O is upgraded there is the 'potential' for this to happen, whether they hire experienced captains directly or not.
The difference is that the JAR nations (well, most of them) put safety over the "rights" of the pilot to progress at the most rapid possible rate. The reverse is true down here, particularly in NZ. It isn't an issue yet, because the experience base is high, but it could well become an issue in the future.
I'd still like someone to explain why the airline industry downunder works this way, when virtually no other industry does. In most industries, promotion is on merit, ability, and experience. The UK LoCos do this now, and their pilots seem fine with it. It is written into your T's and C's that there is no automatic right to promotion, in most UK airlines.
The reason why it will never change down here is the same basic reason that '89 happened... hmmm perhaps I shouldn't start that one again...
I am talking about the operations where they would RATHER promote a person with the minimum possible experience, than hire a guy with heaps of it,
I cannot think of one company doing this in the jet world in oz at present, plenty of turboprop operators are doing it.
Podbreak is spot on the money, you as a DE Captain on a 737 would be low time (zero in fact) on type flying with an FO who probably has more experience than you on type, a poor gradient.
If you want the job you have to jump through the hoops or return to Europe. Have you had interviews? Perhaps they picked up something about you in the interview?
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you as a DE Captain on a 737 would be low time (zero in fact) on type flying with an FO who probably has more experience than you on type, a poor gradient.
As for your last para, well that really says it all. An inability to argue the point, but instead resort to insults, is the behaviour of someone who should not be allowed command of a bicycle. A great pity that you cannot see that the hoops themselves are the problem, or that aviation outside Oz has moved on. That is because they have figured out the old ways don't work in the modern environment.
Some of you are so conditioned by the system that you work in, that you cannot see it's faults. Sad.
It is the only industry I can think of where new hires must start at the bottom, regardless of their experience or previous rank. Try that one in a hospital, software company, police force, or even the armed forces. Never happens
Airlines like DJ basically had 'accelerated' commands for a lot of the highly experienced F/Os from AN, a lot of those guys got commands over guys with hardly any hours but started before them, so I think to say that guys with no experience are getting commands over outsiders is a little bit of an overkill. Australia has always had a lot of highly experienced F/Os that would have had Commands years ago in any other part of the world. Cadets at QF are sidestepped for commands and F/O upgrades over more experienced DEC pilots despite 'seniority'.
Interesting you also state that the BAe146 isn't much of a jump to the 737/A320. When Ansett was around a lot of pilots struggled and failed command courses and lateral promotions on both of those a/c types and ended up back on the quadrapuff. Most that did make it stated it was a big jump. FMC was a big hurdle for a lot it seemed.
Sadly a lot of things in aviation aren't necessarily right, but it is what it is, and it is their(employers) train sets so to speak.
Last edited by puff; 29th Mar 2007 at 07:27.
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Yeah, I really did think about it. The point is that if you have a lot of inexperienced captains flying with a lot of inexperienced F/Os, the risk goes up - the holes in the swiss cheese
So now you have a situation where a new captain with the bare minimum requirement, is potentially flying with a brand new F/O.
Command suitability is not about time on type, it is about decision-making and judgement abilities that only come with experience.
and, to quote you;
Command suitability is not about time on type
Most of the LoCos in Europe have had this issue, and it why they were forced into large DEC campaigns
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There's a lot of valuable comments here, but lets face it if you have 10,000 hours and your complaining about not being able to get a job, well, theres an issue there. There is a pilot shortage, but hours dont mean everything, and if your complaining on pprune then its even worse lol! I mean, honestly, honestly, I know guys with 1000 hours that are cruising into jet jobs overseas with commands within the next 2 years. Yeah if you wanna stay in NZ then so be it don't complain man. Your like the GA guy with too many hours complaining they didnt get a twin job lol!
Me now!
Me now!
haha
Me now!
Me now!
haha
Depends too on your employment status. A check of Parc, IAC, Rishworth and others will reveal recency requirements that don't count a CIR sim renewal since they mostly require actual pole time within the specified advertised limits. Personally, I'd be inclined to accept the r/h seat and be thankful of a job in this neck of the woods.
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Hang on a second Pod..
I read Remoak's comment to mean experience that is relevant
its bloody obvious a 5000hr single pilot Navajo wonder would be woefully ill equipped to take command in a modern glass cockpit. Similarly, many experienced TP pilots struggle to convert to jets simply because of the difference in the physics involved and the differing profiles flown.
I happen to take the view point that it is the relevance of the experience that is important...why else do you see DJ 737 guys easing into an EK 777?
Going from a 146 into a more automated and easier to fly beast..is certainly not a big step, guys over here accomplish similar things all the time...with little trouble.
Remoak makes a fair point, and his assertion is based on his personal experience...which I can back up with anecdotal evidence from my own sources.
Flying in NZ and Oz is not that different to anywhere else, the fact is however, the thinking towards DEC's is based on outdated situations and circumstances, and in no small part to the protectionist attitude prevalent in the industry there. Experience if not gained for "said" operator on "said" type is not considered valuable, that IMHO is about as damming an indictment as can be leveled.
I can only conclude that remoak's comment
Is either being disregarded, or is not understood by those who wish to defend their corner, either way, you are missing the point
Therefore though the majority of these guys and gals have TP or Piston time it is apparently of little consequence.
its bloody obvious a 5000hr single pilot Navajo wonder would be woefully ill equipped to take command in a modern glass cockpit. Similarly, many experienced TP pilots struggle to convert to jets simply because of the difference in the physics involved and the differing profiles flown.I happen to take the view point that it is the relevance of the experience that is important...why else do you see DJ 737 guys easing into an EK 777?
Going from a 146 into a more automated and easier to fly beast..is certainly not a big step, guys over here accomplish similar things all the time...with little trouble.
Remoak makes a fair point, and his assertion is based on his personal experience...which I can back up with anecdotal evidence from my own sources.
Flying in NZ and Oz is not that different to anywhere else, the fact is however, the thinking towards DEC's is based on outdated situations and circumstances, and in no small part to the protectionist attitude prevalent in the industry there. Experience if not gained for "said" operator on "said" type is not considered valuable, that IMHO is about as damming an indictment as can be leveled.
I can only conclude that remoak's comment
Command suitability is not about time on type, it is about decision-making and judgement abilities that only come with experience. It doesn't matter how many hours you have on type, if you don't have the overall experience and judgement that comes with command (ie time).
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haughtney1,
I got the point the first time. I am well aware of how it is, and I'm certainly not 'defending' my corner. I'll explain simply how this began;
Remoak said:
aside from the regionals who most definitely are hiring for command, I explained:
Remoak made the point that the fact they aren't hiring LHSeaters has left a gaping hole of experience. This is not the truth. It happened in Europe, hence the DEC campaigns, but it hasn't happened in Australia. The majority of FOs in Australia have significant command time, in addition the years they spent as an FO of jet time and time on type. They are more than equipped. Suggesting the experience crisis is anywhere near what it was/is in Europe is just plain WRONG.
Likewise.
Now if there is no shortage of experience in the FO ranks, tell me what is fair about hiring over the top?
Is multicrew TP experience relevant? It certainly is, there is plenty of that amongst the FOs waiting for their command.
The point is: There is a relative shortage of pilots in Australia, and compared to what it was, it is getting better for us. To answer Remoak's question; Europe, Asia or the ME... but somehow I think he/she already knew that...
I got the point the first time. I am well aware of how it is, and I'm certainly not 'defending' my corner. I'll explain simply how this began;
Remoak said:
So where do I go with my 10,000 hours and 4,000 of jet command time? Because as far as I can work out, ain't nobody hiring, not for command at any rate.
They are hiring FOs at a high rate, but thats as far as this shortage goes.
Remoak makes a fair point, and his assertion is based on his personal experience
Now if there is no shortage of experience in the FO ranks, tell me what is fair about hiring over the top?
I read Remoak's comment to mean experience that is relevant its bloody obvious a 5000hr single pilot Navajo wonder would be woefully ill equipped to take command in a modern glass cockpit.
its bloody obvious a 5000hr single pilot Navajo wonder would be woefully ill equipped to take command in a modern glass cockpit.
The point is: There is a relative shortage of pilots in Australia, and compared to what it was, it is getting better for us. To answer Remoak's question; Europe, Asia or the ME... but somehow I think he/she already knew that...
At 48 years old with a 146 on your licence, even with substantial good experience you are not gods gift to the airlines accept that.
Luckily for you there is a shortage at the moment so make the best of it while you can. Take a right seat job on a 737/A320, keep your head down for a couple of years and get upgraded. Then enjoy the next 10 years as a skipper until you retire.
I'm doing that right now, some of the Captains I fly with are 10+ years younger than me, with less than half my total time. I was an experienced pilot while they were still in school. They were in the right place at the right time, I wasn't that's life. I'm getting good pay and experience all the time, possible upgrade in a year or two and the doors are opening should I wish to move on. Another two months and QATAR would look at me, another year for Emirates. This time last year I wouldn't have even got a reply from them.
The longer you leave it, the harder it gets. Do it now while the time is ripe or you will be in your fifties with an obsolete type on your licence and no one will look at you.
Luckily for you there is a shortage at the moment so make the best of it while you can. Take a right seat job on a 737/A320, keep your head down for a couple of years and get upgraded. Then enjoy the next 10 years as a skipper until you retire.
I'm doing that right now, some of the Captains I fly with are 10+ years younger than me, with less than half my total time. I was an experienced pilot while they were still in school. They were in the right place at the right time, I wasn't that's life. I'm getting good pay and experience all the time, possible upgrade in a year or two and the doors are opening should I wish to move on. Another two months and QATAR would look at me, another year for Emirates. This time last year I wouldn't have even got a reply from them.
The longer you leave it, the harder it gets. Do it now while the time is ripe or you will be in your fifties with an obsolete type on your licence and no one will look at you.
remoak,
I also joined easyJet as a 737 DEC. They, and virtually all other operators in Europe, would rather promote F/Os from within than hire DECs, but had a specific problem with insufficient qualified F/Os (and, in European terms, insufficient meant less than the 3000hrs TOTAL time required for the upgrade.)
I've since taken another DEC position, once again because the companies needs meant they COULDN'T promote quickly enough from within to cope with it's expansion.
I'm fortunate and grateful for both opportunities, but I don't feel in the least entitled to go over the head of incumbent FOs if there are enough to cover the positions.
I've known many people of your experience and mine (which is greater BTW) take the step back to F/O (and more than a few to S/O) not just in AUS but in Europe, Asia and the Middle east in order to get where they want to be.
The fact that the requirements for entry to any of the Australian Jet operations is so high means that they would rarely be in a position where they could not promote from within, and nor should they.
I've spent the last six years in the "Real World" of which you speak, and have found it different to the way you describe it.
I also joined easyJet as a 737 DEC. They, and virtually all other operators in Europe, would rather promote F/Os from within than hire DECs, but had a specific problem with insufficient qualified F/Os (and, in European terms, insufficient meant less than the 3000hrs TOTAL time required for the upgrade.)
I've since taken another DEC position, once again because the companies needs meant they COULDN'T promote quickly enough from within to cope with it's expansion.
I'm fortunate and grateful for both opportunities, but I don't feel in the least entitled to go over the head of incumbent FOs if there are enough to cover the positions.
I've known many people of your experience and mine (which is greater BTW) take the step back to F/O (and more than a few to S/O) not just in AUS but in Europe, Asia and the Middle east in order to get where they want to be.
The fact that the requirements for entry to any of the Australian Jet operations is so high means that they would rarely be in a position where they could not promote from within, and nor should they.
I've spent the last six years in the "Real World" of which you speak, and have found it different to the way you describe it.
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In the Real World in the US.............No airlines hire street captains unless they are a new upstart airline or are so desperate for experienced pilots, that they are horribly losing money that they must. This is so rare, you never really hear about it. I am talking for regionals, flying DH8-Q400s, CRJs, ERJs.
Nobody gets hired directly into the left seat on a big jet (read BOEING) unless it's a brand new airline beginning operations, ie Virgin America, or Jet Blue recently, but even then the guys in the left seats were extremely experienced, and probably CA's at other airlines.
Upgrading based on merit or some other bullsh1t doesn't fly here in the U.S.
Seniority is how you upgrade, you blow your checks while getting an upgrade and your usually throw out. There's your merit and skills test.
Sorry, had to post, I cannot believe seniority would be bypassed at any airline.
Nobody gets hired directly into the left seat on a big jet (read BOEING) unless it's a brand new airline beginning operations, ie Virgin America, or Jet Blue recently, but even then the guys in the left seats were extremely experienced, and probably CA's at other airlines.
Upgrading based on merit or some other bullsh1t doesn't fly here in the U.S.
Seniority is how you upgrade, you blow your checks while getting an upgrade and your usually throw out. There's your merit and skills test.
Sorry, had to post, I cannot believe seniority would be bypassed at any airline.
metro,
Well, on the OTHER side of the coin, you should realise that in large parts of the rest of the world, there IS no seniority.
It is not a universal holy writ.
Well, on the OTHER side of the coin, you should realise that in large parts of the rest of the world, there IS no seniority.
It is not a universal holy writ.
Grandpa Aerotart
Don't get me wrong remoak I am not knocking the 'fischer price starlifter'...flown them myself...not my favorite aeroplane ever but they aren't bad...and about the most overly complicated 2 crew jet around.
I too have climbed the slippery pole to jet command and even C&Ting on 'little jets' and then through life's circumstances taken a job as an SFO on widebody. I am most of the way through my command training as I type after 3 yrs back in the cheap seats.
There is certainly a bit of a perceived barrier at 50-55000kg...call it snobbery if you like but that is just the way it is.
That 3 years wasn't unpleasant...new type (B767) new routes and destinations...time in the RHS of a new type is never wasted...PLENTY of time flying with captains sometimes 10+ years younger than I (and much less experienced in general terms) but they were all great to fly with...and I wouldn't swap my path to the LHS of a widebody for theirs under any circumstances...I have had a ball....but it was still the case that my experience was on 'the wrong' type aircraft...that is no longer the case.
I would suggest if you want to continue flying you get a job in an airline as an SFO...VB and J* are recruiting like crazy and especially J* have HUGE expansion plans...another 30+ jets on the way including 15 787s.
If you join now and tick all the boxes for a couple of years you would be back in the LHS of possibly a VERY substantial aeroplane.
There is a shortage of experience but the real effects loom large on the horizon still rather than being already here. Airline management still haven't got their heads around it completely but they will soon enough
.
I too have climbed the slippery pole to jet command and even C&Ting on 'little jets' and then through life's circumstances taken a job as an SFO on widebody. I am most of the way through my command training as I type after 3 yrs back in the cheap seats.
There is certainly a bit of a perceived barrier at 50-55000kg...call it snobbery if you like but that is just the way it is.
That 3 years wasn't unpleasant...new type (B767) new routes and destinations...time in the RHS of a new type is never wasted...PLENTY of time flying with captains sometimes 10+ years younger than I (and much less experienced in general terms) but they were all great to fly with...and I wouldn't swap my path to the LHS of a widebody for theirs under any circumstances...I have had a ball....but it was still the case that my experience was on 'the wrong' type aircraft...that is no longer the case.
I would suggest if you want to continue flying you get a job in an airline as an SFO...VB and J* are recruiting like crazy and especially J* have HUGE expansion plans...another 30+ jets on the way including 15 787s.
If you join now and tick all the boxes for a couple of years you would be back in the LHS of possibly a VERY substantial aeroplane.
There is a shortage of experience but the real effects loom large on the horizon still rather than being already here. Airline management still haven't got their heads around it completely but they will soon enough
.