To ATC ..Gold Coast Ground freq
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To ATC ..Gold Coast Ground freq
To the person on GOLD COAST ground freq the other day.
Your comment to my student 'Not good enough'
after he read back a clearance incorrectly was very unprofessional.
AIP comms does not have that gutteral term written anywhere.
By the tone of your voice you were having a bad day.
If you cant hack the job mate get out of the kitchen.
Your superiors have been informed but I guess that wont go anywhere.
Your comment to my student 'Not good enough'
after he read back a clearance incorrectly was very unprofessional.
AIP comms does not have that gutteral term written anywhere.
By the tone of your voice you were having a bad day.
If you cant hack the job mate get out of the kitchen.
Your superiors have been informed but I guess that wont go anywhere.
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An appalling reaction. He should be ashamed of himself. I would think the student has now had his/her confidence knocked and could make the situation worse in the future. I remember I was always nervous when learning RT. It seems this controller needs to have a bit of reflection and also I proffer an apology to the student would not go amiss.
Alex Ford
Alex Ford
I'm not agreeing with the actions of the controller, I think thats a piss poor display of professionalism, and that kind of thing should never be said to anyone on the RT, let alone a student. HOWEVER.... maybe the guy was having a bad day.(no excuse though. sick leave is there for a reason, if your not up to it, don't go in) Yes, he shouldn't take it out on pilots, but you guys do it to ATC as well. Yes you do.
As for "being to fat to pass his CPL".
Get off your high horse sonny. Not all ATC want to be pilots. You're making out like getting a CPL is some act only for the special few.
We all know different. Get over your self man.
As for "being to fat to pass his CPL".
Get off your high horse sonny. Not all ATC want to be pilots. You're making out like getting a CPL is some act only for the special few.
We all know different. Get over your self man.
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Sometimes after 8 hours on a busy day trying to get read backs from students who are 'learning' RT and lazy/inexperienced/poor instructors who don't jump in and finish/correct the read back and leave ATC to chase it, when they have more important things to do than the instructors job.
It's the instructors job to train the student, don't be so lazy as to leave it to someone else to do. I'm sure the 'not good enough' comment was more aimed at you Ratso as you sat there FDandH making the Controller do your job. If you find it too hard to do your job for the entire flight including taxi... get out of the right hand seat.
To everyone else besides Ratso, lets be honest, as Fixa24 said, we all have bad days and say things we regret. Pilots are as guilty of this as Controllers. Build a bridge.
It's the instructors job to train the student, don't be so lazy as to leave it to someone else to do. I'm sure the 'not good enough' comment was more aimed at you Ratso as you sat there FDandH making the Controller do your job. If you find it too hard to do your job for the entire flight including taxi... get out of the right hand seat.
To everyone else besides Ratso, lets be honest, as Fixa24 said, we all have bad days and say things we regret. Pilots are as guilty of this as Controllers. Build a bridge.
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I'll go into bat for the controller.
I wasn't there (would be a miracle if I was at this point in time) and so didn't hear the transmissions. The last time I was at the Gold Coast (July last year) I was pretty impressed with their helpfulness and attitude.
There are few things more irritating than being held up coming into CTA because some "verbally challenged" person needs 4 attempts to read back an airways clearance. Fairly common around EN. Or having to delay a descent because another aircraft is unable to tell you whether he is North or South of the airfield that you're going to land, etc.
There's a current thread on D&G regarding the increasing numbers of pilots with poor spoken English, and threads that revolve around the lowering of R/T standards are common. But when a controller informs a pilot that his R/T is poor, you're all outraged.
Perhaps the Controller was less than professional, but he probably voiced what myself and plenty of other pilots have thought on many occasions.
Questions for the instructor:
Did you coach your student on the radio calls that he could expect in CTA prior to this flight?
Has this student had previous problems with readbacks and broadcasts, etc? If so, did you do anything about it, especially prior to going into CTA?
Before reporting the contoller to his superiors, did you contact the Controller and ask him/her why they replied like that?
And let's face it; if having an ATC tell you "not good enough" is the worst thing that's happened to you today, then (IMHO) you're still having a pretty good day.
Stay happy,
DIVOSH
There are few things more irritating than being held up coming into CTA because some "verbally challenged" person needs 4 attempts to read back an airways clearance. Fairly common around EN. Or having to delay a descent because another aircraft is unable to tell you whether he is North or South of the airfield that you're going to land, etc.
There's a current thread on D&G regarding the increasing numbers of pilots with poor spoken English, and threads that revolve around the lowering of R/T standards are common. But when a controller informs a pilot that his R/T is poor, you're all outraged.
Perhaps the Controller was less than professional, but he probably voiced what myself and plenty of other pilots have thought on many occasions.
Questions for the instructor:
Did you coach your student on the radio calls that he could expect in CTA prior to this flight?
Has this student had previous problems with readbacks and broadcasts, etc? If so, did you do anything about it, especially prior to going into CTA?
Before reporting the contoller to his superiors, did you contact the Controller and ask him/her why they replied like that?
And let's face it; if having an ATC tell you "not good enough" is the worst thing that's happened to you today, then (IMHO) you're still having a pretty good day.
Stay happy,
DIVOSH
"and lazy/inexperienced/poor instructors who don't jump in and finish/correct the read back and leave ATC to chase it"
I'm tempted to have a go at this, but wont. What I will do is point out that students get 2 goes at the radio call before ill help. If they muck it up once, I let tower correct them and they have another go, if they get it wrong the second time i'll pipe up and complete it properly to avoid holding things up. Everyone has to learn somewhere.
I've dealt with my fair share of trainee controllers too.
I'm tempted to have a go at this, but wont. What I will do is point out that students get 2 goes at the radio call before ill help. If they muck it up once, I let tower correct them and they have another go, if they get it wrong the second time i'll pipe up and complete it properly to avoid holding things up. Everyone has to learn somewhere.
I've dealt with my fair share of trainee controllers too.
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You've dealt with your fair share of trainee controllers? How exactly have you dealt with them? Do you chase readbacks from the controller who is still learning the English language? Do you deal with 10 or 15 trainee controllers at the same time? No, you do the same thing you have done every other day.
Perhaps I haven't expressed myself very well. By "deal", I mean 'have experienced'. When faced with a new controller all that is required is some human understanding and patience. Occasionally you will get an instruction that doesn't make sense, or some other mistake whilst they get up to speed.
In the vein of the student pilot who muddles up their readback, I believe the course of action is patience, not firing "not good enough" across the radio. I try not to "deal" with anyone at work, if I can help it.
In the vein of the student pilot who muddles up their readback, I believe the course of action is patience, not firing "not good enough" across the radio. I try not to "deal" with anyone at work, if I can help it.
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......Guys & Gals we ALL have made verbal boo boo's on the ground & in the air during our training (most still do anyway), it's just how we handle the reactions we create by those boo boo's, we simply learn by mistake, sadly at times that's not good enough but we are after all human, not machines as in what we sit in! Have a listen to the 121.5 freq sometime (to those that don't normally it's the 'on guard' freq) if you get the chance, a lot of 'chit chat', mistaken mostly finger trouble there & from so called professional pilots, you don't need to be a student to stuff it up !! Learn & get on with doing what the planes we fly do...............move forward !
Capt Wally :-)
Capt Wally :-)
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I second all positive comments about the tower and ground guys at OOL. I have flown in there regularly over the last 5 years and never had a problem.
Agree it shouldn't have happened, as I'm sure the controler involved does, but the posting of the complaint, along with "your superiors have been informed" just sounds like someone up themselves trying to be "the big man".
Don't know what it's like in Aus, but when I was instructing in NZ, we used to spend a lot of time with the controllers and if we had a problem, we'd wander up to the tower and discuss it over a coffee.
Ratso, I don't know if my comments above apply to you or not, but that's the way you come across. Might I suggest a friendly chat at an appropriate time will get you far further than going over someone's head "to their superiors", or whining on the 'Net.
Agree it shouldn't have happened, as I'm sure the controler involved does, but the posting of the complaint, along with "your superiors have been informed" just sounds like someone up themselves trying to be "the big man".
Don't know what it's like in Aus, but when I was instructing in NZ, we used to spend a lot of time with the controllers and if we had a problem, we'd wander up to the tower and discuss it over a coffee.
Ratso, I don't know if my comments above apply to you or not, but that's the way you come across. Might I suggest a friendly chat at an appropriate time will get you far further than going over someone's head "to their superiors", or whining on the 'Net.
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The simply response is, station calling VH-ABC "say again"!
The silence will be deafening...
The silence will be deafening...
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I was on the ground when this happened. The ground controller was pretty busy at the time.
Less than 60 seconds before this, the controller had another training aircraft start taxiing for departure without getting a taxi clearance. He was still dealing with this and other aircraft when the airways clearance and readback happened.
Yes he should not have said it, but the comment did not sound malicious to me.
Less than 60 seconds before this, the controller had another training aircraft start taxiing for departure without getting a taxi clearance. He was still dealing with this and other aircraft when the airways clearance and readback happened.
Yes he should not have said it, but the comment did not sound malicious to me.
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Customers.....would be correct terminology for someone paying for a service I think.
The guys and girl at Maroochy are always very helpful and polite. I do recall the lady ATC there during her first few months get a bit tongue tied and so on, clearances took a little longer etc, and now she is up to speed and a delight on the radio.
We all need remember what it was like to be the student at the bottom of the food chain once in a while!
Some folk definately should learn fluent english first though!
J
The guys and girl at Maroochy are always very helpful and polite. I do recall the lady ATC there during her first few months get a bit tongue tied and so on, clearances took a little longer etc, and now she is up to speed and a delight on the radio.
We all need remember what it was like to be the student at the bottom of the food chain once in a while!
Some folk definately should learn fluent english first though!
J
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If there was a misunderstanding or you needed something to be clarified, then by all means a friendly chat over a telephone call or over a cuppa to get on the same wavelength is a good way to handle a situation.
But if old mate was having a bad day and has decided to have a go, then by all means refer the incident through the official channels.
But if old mate was having a bad day and has decided to have a go, then by all means refer the incident through the official channels.
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I see from the info provided here; a few very valuable lessons in aviation.
1) You need a thick skin.
2) It's good to have a quick wit and quick smart arse reply's often ease the tension.
3) You just have to get over it, tomorrow is another day, another ATC/Pilot another clearance etc.
4) Aviators always have an excuse or a reason, justified or not.
So what exactly is the problem we are discussing; opinions and attitudes are like arseholes, everyone has one.
1) You need a thick skin.
2) It's good to have a quick wit and quick smart arse reply's often ease the tension.
3) You just have to get over it, tomorrow is another day, another ATC/Pilot another clearance etc.
4) Aviators always have an excuse or a reason, justified or not.
So what exactly is the problem we are discussing; opinions and attitudes are like arseholes, everyone has one.
Ratso!!
Dear Ratso,
you're the instructor, IMHO you were perhaps the one needing some work on your professionalism! If your student could not hack a radio call on what can be a manic freq sometimes, perhaps you needed to work with him/her first before you set them loose.
I operate out of the GC on a weekly basis, on a schedule with passengers and there is nothing worse than trying to call ground wanting a clearance and some new student is stumbling and stammering his way through the calls, it refelcts badly on yourself and whichever school you're working for. Why not just let the student make the calls in the Training area until he builds up confidence? The silouettes up there in the big shiny thing have got the southern T/A to deal with, Jets on RNAV's PJE ops at Byron and Burleigh to try and co-ordinate as well (Used to be a jump truck driver there) in addition to jets asking for Clearances etc. So if you're student cant get it right and he gets a little upset, IMHO he is entitled to.
Just something else... there is also no AIP standard phraseology for UMMM AHHH UGHHH....CAN YOU DO IT....NO...OK GC RADAR THIS IS UMMMM.... you get my point
Oh and if there are any GC ATC guys reading, LOVE YOUR WORK GENTS Really the most accomodating freindly and professional bunch of ATCers i have come across in my travels
you're the instructor, IMHO you were perhaps the one needing some work on your professionalism! If your student could not hack a radio call on what can be a manic freq sometimes, perhaps you needed to work with him/her first before you set them loose.
I operate out of the GC on a weekly basis, on a schedule with passengers and there is nothing worse than trying to call ground wanting a clearance and some new student is stumbling and stammering his way through the calls, it refelcts badly on yourself and whichever school you're working for. Why not just let the student make the calls in the Training area until he builds up confidence? The silouettes up there in the big shiny thing have got the southern T/A to deal with, Jets on RNAV's PJE ops at Byron and Burleigh to try and co-ordinate as well (Used to be a jump truck driver there) in addition to jets asking for Clearances etc. So if you're student cant get it right and he gets a little upset, IMHO he is entitled to.
Just something else... there is also no AIP standard phraseology for UMMM AHHH UGHHH....CAN YOU DO IT....NO...OK GC RADAR THIS IS UMMMM.... you get my point
Oh and if there are any GC ATC guys reading, LOVE YOUR WORK GENTS
Really the most accomodating freindly and professional bunch of ATCers i have come across in my travels