VFR "over the top"
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However the regs are as I posted, or at least I believe they are. In response to QNH's question I looked in the trusty VFR flight guide, and thats what I printed.
Sprucegoose
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you must have either NDB or VOR or whatever stamped off in your log book and displayed on your licence if you plan to use them as a primary method of postion fixing.
We all know the rules with regard to position fixes, so what we are really trying to work it out is who is 'qualified' to conduct 'VFR on top'?
It's all in the AIP ENR 19.2.1 (note 2)
'Qualified' means the holder of an instrument rating or NVFR rating which is endorsed for the particular navigation aid or any private or higher category pilot who has received in-flight instruction from a qualified instructor in the use of the navigation aids as the sole means of navigation, and who is competent to navigate by use of the aid
J-430,
Whilst the VFR flight guide is a great knowledge building tool, you must always be sure and cross reference it with the relative CAO, CAR & AIP texts.
Cheers, HH.
PS: Good question by the way, it just goes to show how many 'wives tails' there are in aviation!
Note:The reference to 4/8ths and 8/8ths went out a long time ago, it is now reffered to as "more than scattered cloud". ie: broken/overcast.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Howard you beat me to it!!
"you must have either NDB or VOR or whatever stamped off in your log book and displayed on your licence if you plan to use them as a primary method of postion fixing."
I don't agree with that statement, based on the statement from the VFG below. Remember that this is a unique situtation and it's not talking about a CIR. VFR over the top, is ultimately VFR and should be flown as VFR. Same logic as night flying as legally you don't need certified instruments (AH / DG etc) or redundant systems or split sources as the assumption is that the flight shall remain as VFR.
It does clearly say "received in-flight instruction" so that's covered by the PPL syllabus.
"Note 2: “Qualified” means the holder of an instrument rating or NVFR rating which is endorsed for the particular navigation aid or any private or higher category pilot who has received in-flight instruction from a qualified instructor in the use of the radio navigation aid as the sole means of navigation, and who is competent to navigate by use of the aid."
"you must have either NDB or VOR or whatever stamped off in your log book and displayed on your licence if you plan to use them as a primary method of postion fixing."
I don't agree with that statement, based on the statement from the VFG below. Remember that this is a unique situtation and it's not talking about a CIR. VFR over the top, is ultimately VFR and should be flown as VFR. Same logic as night flying as legally you don't need certified instruments (AH / DG etc) or redundant systems or split sources as the assumption is that the flight shall remain as VFR.
It does clearly say "received in-flight instruction" so that's covered by the PPL syllabus.
"Note 2: “Qualified” means the holder of an instrument rating or NVFR rating which is endorsed for the particular navigation aid or any private or higher category pilot who has received in-flight instruction from a qualified instructor in the use of the radio navigation aid as the sole means of navigation, and who is competent to navigate by use of the aid."
While I acknowledge that I have the hypocrasy of a reformed drunk on this issue, I appeal to anyone starting out NOT to be tempted into "VFR on top" unless both you and the aeroplane are IFR qualified.
In my PPL days I thought nothing of it - eg taking off from YBAF and climbing straight out to VFR on top, enroute to somewhere like YLRE, some 3 hours later. In those days you could actually private hire many near new IFR legal aircraft eg BE35, C210, M20, so chances were good that everything would keep working OK, unlike today when at best a PVT hired aircraft is likely to be 30+ years old - with systems and avionics of the same vintage.
The last time I pvt-hired an aeroplane (supposedly IFR legal), the oil drained from the magnetic compass and the AH rolled up-side-down while I was in VMC-on-top while enroute to my destination, on an IFR plan. Returning home VFR the next day, I had a total electrical failure and had to fly the last 100 nm with the gear extended and use my hand held VHF radio (bought following a previous electrical failure incident) to get back into home base. The owner was very upset when I wrote up the maintainance release, thus grounding the aeroplane.
This incident prompted me to source the BE35 that I now fly. It may still be 30 yrs old but it is well maintained, has new avionics and multiple redundancy on just about everything but the donk - and my LAME and I keep a very close watch on that.
These days I would be very reluctant to go VFR-on-top in the average VFR/NVFR GA aircraft, even though getting back down again through an overcast is much less of an issue for me than it was in my PPL days.
FTDK
In my PPL days I thought nothing of it - eg taking off from YBAF and climbing straight out to VFR on top, enroute to somewhere like YLRE, some 3 hours later. In those days you could actually private hire many near new IFR legal aircraft eg BE35, C210, M20, so chances were good that everything would keep working OK, unlike today when at best a PVT hired aircraft is likely to be 30+ years old - with systems and avionics of the same vintage.
The last time I pvt-hired an aeroplane (supposedly IFR legal), the oil drained from the magnetic compass and the AH rolled up-side-down while I was in VMC-on-top while enroute to my destination, on an IFR plan. Returning home VFR the next day, I had a total electrical failure and had to fly the last 100 nm with the gear extended and use my hand held VHF radio (bought following a previous electrical failure incident) to get back into home base. The owner was very upset when I wrote up the maintainance release, thus grounding the aeroplane.
This incident prompted me to source the BE35 that I now fly. It may still be 30 yrs old but it is well maintained, has new avionics and multiple redundancy on just about everything but the donk - and my LAME and I keep a very close watch on that.
These days I would be very reluctant to go VFR-on-top in the average VFR/NVFR GA aircraft, even though getting back down again through an overcast is much less of an issue for me than it was in my PPL days.
FTDK
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...........what FTDK said is worth contemplating to those that want to "risk" VFR on top............it's all about risk, legal or otherwise, flying itself is a risk, but mostly calculated risks, I said 'mostly' calculated, like that old saying if you don't 'have' to ........then simply don't !..............Once upon a time there was no such thing as VFR on top, well as we know it today, you either flew VFR or IFR with all it's afforded protections, some questionable these days tho with 'see & be seen', see & avoid' or whatever ya like to call it applying to both IFR & VFR (where applicable of course) being a mainstay to our survival according to the boffin rule makers. I've heard a few times over the years on the radio from VFR pilots that their not too sure where they are 'cause there's total cloud cover beneath them, play it safe guys & gals, private flying is meant to be based on fun amongst other things, caught in cloud IFR or not can at times be far from that !
Capt Wally:-)
Capt Wally:-)
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He says that VFR over the top over 4/8'ths or over is IFR no matter for how long. He also says that VFR over the top is always IFR and requires either a night rating (for the navaid's)
Whereas VFR aircraft can operate above 4/8 of cloud on VFR procedures, the actual term "VFR-on-Top" definitely only refers to IFR category aircraft undertaking this procedure as far as I am aware (refer AIP ENR 1.1-15), as there are a number of services and rules associated with this procedure for IFR category aircraft that would not be incumbent on a VFR category aircraft doing the same thing eg ATC continues to provide traffic info, position reporting is still required, continuous radio comms required etc. VFR aircraft operating above more than 4/8 are still bound to fly "VFR" in accordance with all the associated VFR requirements and restrictions and may operate without full position reporting or the communications.
