Multi-Engine runups
AustralianMade
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Great posts ITCZ, I think they show a lot of common sense.
However, I doubt this part:
Please tell me the last time a painter sanded!
Just had the house done (repaint) 80% of painters wouldn't sand. Period. I had to ask them due to their being a couple of rough spots.
A couple wouldn't quote on the job if there was sanding involved. They said that most of the work these days is new houses that don't need sanding and they "couldn't be bothered with the old stuff."
Finally accepted a quote from a guy who said he would do it and he simply painted over most of it without sanding.
Anyways, if you see a painter sanding take a pic and post it here for the sake of history please.
Major thread drift.
However, I doubt this part:
But the painter sizes up the job and says, ok, I will undercoat this room and sand the next one ...
Just had the house done (repaint) 80% of painters wouldn't sand. Period. I had to ask them due to their being a couple of rough spots.
A couple wouldn't quote on the job if there was sanding involved. They said that most of the work these days is new houses that don't need sanding and they "couldn't be bothered with the old stuff."
Finally accepted a quote from a guy who said he would do it and he simply painted over most of it without sanding.
Anyways, if you see a painter sanding take a pic and post it here for the sake of history please.
Major thread drift.
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Broken Conrod
There are 2 concrete pads, the one further from the terminal is frequently used for runups, leaving the parking pad free.
We are diverging somewhat however. The purpose of this forum is to give PROFESSIONAL input.
I am only giving my opinion, based on my experience. You don't have to agree, in fact you are free to disagree if that is your want.
Cheers
5L&R
There are 2 concrete pads, the one further from the terminal is frequently used for runups, leaving the parking pad free.
We are diverging somewhat however. The purpose of this forum is to give PROFESSIONAL input.
I am only giving my opinion, based on my experience. You don't have to agree, in fact you are free to disagree if that is your want.
Cheers
5L&R
Last edited by 5 Left & Right; 19th Jan 2007 at 07:49.
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Twin Runups
I have just finished working for a charter company where I was flying an Islander. It was standard practice to do the run ups first thing in the morning before any flights that may be planned.
This gave us plenty of time to warm the engines up properly and then do the run ups.
If we had pax come in off the street that required the plane asap and it had not been run up, we would make the departure time with enough time spare to do warm ups, run ups and gas up if required. This was a way to make sure we were not rushed through and had covered everything required.
ARPs.
This gave us plenty of time to warm the engines up properly and then do the run ups.
If we had pax come in off the street that required the plane asap and it had not been run up, we would make the departure time with enough time spare to do warm ups, run ups and gas up if required. This was a way to make sure we were not rushed through and had covered everything required.
ARPs.
Thread Starter
Thanks ARP's, 777WakeTurbz, ITCZ and others with their advice and opinions. As usual PPrune throws up all sorts.
I currently do scenics and charter in singles and 'usually' do runups at the start of the day otherwise if its a very short notice scenic and I have flown the aircraft recently I will do them quickly with pax on board.
I was just wondering about twin runups not just because of having 2 of everything to check but usually because there are more systems/avionics to check as well- hence more time needed. It's hard to tell sometimes when you see a charter twin taxiing out if they do runups or not.
Heres another question- what about small-medium turboprops, conquests, metro's and the like. Is there a need for power checks above high idle in turbines? Or is the performance just monitored during the takeoff roll.
Thanks for the replies
I currently do scenics and charter in singles and 'usually' do runups at the start of the day otherwise if its a very short notice scenic and I have flown the aircraft recently I will do them quickly with pax on board.
I was just wondering about twin runups not just because of having 2 of everything to check but usually because there are more systems/avionics to check as well- hence more time needed. It's hard to tell sometimes when you see a charter twin taxiing out if they do runups or not.
Heres another question- what about small-medium turboprops, conquests, metro's and the like. Is there a need for power checks above high idle in turbines? Or is the performance just monitored during the takeoff roll.
Thanks for the replies
I figure that I have had about 19,000+ hot dinners!
How many times have you been to Karumba?
FTDK
ForkTailedDrKiller
I think his comment was a little tong in cheek don’t you. I consider 5L&R a good mate and flew with him for many years. I can vouch for the fact that he has been into Karumba more times than you can count. While I will admit I did my share of run-up’s in the bush on the run, I never did it when there was a safe place to do them stationary, and this includes Karumba. Infact our SOP’s had clear guidelines for our pilots to follow when out in the bush. Run up’s on the move were only to be done when it was considered unsafe or unwise to do them stationary.
5 Left & Right
How is the Isa treating you? I always keep an ear out for you when I am heading to or from Hong Kong but never hear you.
I think his comment was a little tong in cheek don’t you. I consider 5L&R a good mate and flew with him for many years. I can vouch for the fact that he has been into Karumba more times than you can count. While I will admit I did my share of run-up’s in the bush on the run, I never did it when there was a safe place to do them stationary, and this includes Karumba. Infact our SOP’s had clear guidelines for our pilots to follow when out in the bush. Run up’s on the move were only to be done when it was considered unsafe or unwise to do them stationary.
5 Left & Right
How is the Isa treating you? I always keep an ear out for you when I am heading to or from Hong Kong but never hear you.
Towering Q
I don’t think the aircraft he flies now needs the same type of run up you currently do. Let’s just say though that if you have the habit of doing your run ups always on the move, the day you f**k it up is the day he will probably come and rescue you, literally.
ForkTailedDrKiller
After your first reply to 5L&R who knows. All I can say is the ForkTailedDrKiller speaks with a forked tong.
I don’t think the aircraft he flies now needs the same type of run up you currently do. Let’s just say though that if you have the habit of doing your run ups always on the move, the day you f**k it up is the day he will probably come and rescue you, literally.
ForkTailedDrKiller
After your first reply to 5L&R who knows. All I can say is the ForkTailedDrKiller speaks with a forked tong.
You should be monitoring performance on all take-offs in all aircraft, lest they try and kill you.
On other things, the last three times I've been to Karumba, a certain TBM-700 has been parked on either pad, so it is academic really when the RPT pad is also occupied. The TBM owner is rumoured to be very courteous, friendly, never taxys everywhere at night with both landing lights on and strobes running, never taxys out onto the runway in front of landing aircraft on short final without making radio calls and never generally causes havoc with his argumantative personality over the radio. Did I say that out loud again? - My bad.
I heard that one day recently someone (from up that way) took such exception to something that happened that a large amount of Karumba's shell grit ended-up going somewhere it shouldn't have gone.....
I'm not a huge fan of twin engine rolling run-ups, but sometimes the aerodrome you are operating out of does not provide a safe area of which to utilise to conduct a run-up. In that instance only will I (or any of the guys working with me) conduct what amounts to a rolling run-up, which may involve several trips up and back down the runway (as they are not done against brakes). That said, when you need to use 2200 or so RPM in something like a Pa31 or even 1500 RPM in a C404 then you'd better have your attention more outside than inside 'coz you wont stay too straight for long.
Piston run-ups (IMHO) should be done before the pax get there before the first flight of the day, a taxying low RPM mag check is then more than sufficient for subsequent flight.
TQ wrote:
That's probably because he is too busy doing his stationary run-ups.
Oh, stop it.
Oh, stop it.
And then C404 wrote:
.....the day you f**k it up is the day he.....
5L+R. Did my wife and I sit opposite you (at the end of the table) at a dinner just before Christmas? If so I'll take you up on the offer you made....
Regards,
OpsN.
Last edited by OpsNormal; 19th Jan 2007 at 21:25.
I have been shown 2 differing ideas on this topic, I used to do run-ups before the pax arrived, then the new boss came out and very politely asked why I was cooking his Starter motors in the cowls if I was intending to use them again in the next 5 min. Then again I have jumped in an aircraft with pax only to find out in the run-up bay that it was U/S.
As for checks on the roll... I used to do them when I was in the NT, on gravel strips, in a single engine. However where I fly now has an abundance of sealed run-up bays and it is expected that all checks be done stationary and in those bays (except if no one else is around or its night in which case the hold point is ok). Have only ever done rolling run-up’s in a twin once, and that was at Mascot, and it took me 15min to get to my runway anyway.
Some bush strips offer you no choice but to rolling run-up. However if you have the option (e.g. a run-up bay) then why load your self up? I’m not sure what kind of operation requires you to save the 1min it takes to do a run-up properly. The only thing that makes a run-up take so long is if your reading of a checklist, simple solution: learn it.
As for checks on the roll... I used to do them when I was in the NT, on gravel strips, in a single engine. However where I fly now has an abundance of sealed run-up bays and it is expected that all checks be done stationary and in those bays (except if no one else is around or its night in which case the hold point is ok). Have only ever done rolling run-up’s in a twin once, and that was at Mascot, and it took me 15min to get to my runway anyway.
Some bush strips offer you no choice but to rolling run-up. However if you have the option (e.g. a run-up bay) then why load your self up? I’m not sure what kind of operation requires you to save the 1min it takes to do a run-up properly. The only thing that makes a run-up take so long is if your reading of a checklist, simple solution: learn it.
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Ever tried to find the park brake in a floatplane they have a habit of moving once the engine is started. We can't even ride the brakes to slow us down while cycling the prop...... but with all that extra training 
we seem to avoid boats and river banks most of the time 
they have a habit of moving once the engine is started. We can't even ride the brakes to slow us down while cycling the prop...... but with all that extra training we seem to avoid boats and river banks most of the time
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Always without pax and in any light twin you must do a snap feather check which might scare the crap out of them, but if there is just no time then tell them what you are going to do so they are ready for it.
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Operationally, I have thrown away the checklist (see other Threads in this forum), and done most of the checks in the parking bay and the run-ups in while taxying (has also been discussed in some detail elsewhere in here.
Yerse - I agree. This works well in my Microsoft PC simulator. Saves time on account I like to fly my Microsoft just like REAL GA pwofessional pilots in Orstralia does
....
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Chadzat
Turboprop engines don't require the same set of run-up procedures as pistons (because their operation is a lot simpler, and less prone to failure, and they are already running at a decent speed at idle). We would normally not go above low idle until applying takeoff power. As OpsNormal said, the PT6 has a set of 'periodic checks' relating to all sorts of systems. They are normally done prior to the first flight of the day, but an operator can specify an acceptable alternative checking schedule (we do them once a week).
As for runups while taxiing, apart from the obvious safety and airmanship issues that have been mentioned, it's a very bad idea to make excessive use of brakes prior to takeoff. At best you'll get a reduction in braking performance (brake fade), at worst a wheel-well fire. Granted, these are not that much of an issue in a light piston twin, but if carried on to a bigger aircraft, can be a recipe for disaster (remember the caravel that tried to clear the fog with a high power taxi against brakes?). I guess the point about stationary runups over gravel is a valid one, and you make do with what you've got. It's not ideal though.
As a few have said. Do the runups (in whatever time it takes you to do them properly) after the daily preflight, before the first flight. ITCZ's point about pax on board making it harder to pull the pin is probably the most useful piece of advise in this thread. The comment about waiting till 500-1000 hrs before cutting corners is less helpful, that is in fact the time you must be MOST careful not to get complacent as you're confidence level increases. It's often said that 1000 hour pilots are the most dangerous.
Turboprop engines don't require the same set of run-up procedures as pistons (because their operation is a lot simpler, and less prone to failure, and they are already running at a decent speed at idle). We would normally not go above low idle until applying takeoff power. As OpsNormal said, the PT6 has a set of 'periodic checks' relating to all sorts of systems. They are normally done prior to the first flight of the day, but an operator can specify an acceptable alternative checking schedule (we do them once a week).
As for runups while taxiing, apart from the obvious safety and airmanship issues that have been mentioned, it's a very bad idea to make excessive use of brakes prior to takeoff. At best you'll get a reduction in braking performance (brake fade), at worst a wheel-well fire. Granted, these are not that much of an issue in a light piston twin, but if carried on to a bigger aircraft, can be a recipe for disaster (remember the caravel that tried to clear the fog with a high power taxi against brakes?). I guess the point about stationary runups over gravel is a valid one, and you make do with what you've got. It's not ideal though.
As a few have said. Do the runups (in whatever time it takes you to do them properly) after the daily preflight, before the first flight. ITCZ's point about pax on board making it harder to pull the pin is probably the most useful piece of advise in this thread. The comment about waiting till 500-1000 hrs before cutting corners is less helpful, that is in fact the time you must be MOST careful not to get complacent as you're confidence level increases. It's often said that 1000 hour pilots are the most dangerous.
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CC...yeah mate,..that too got a raise of the eyebrows......never heard of it,and certainly never done it...
....I think he forgot to mention that after 20 of these ,...the prop snaps,....and pulls the engine completely out of the cowling....to where you do a single engine taxi back to the gate.....and explain to the boss how these "snap feather checks".....dont work......
..... now ya know why we have mechanics.....PB
....I think he forgot to mention that after 20 of these ,...the prop snaps,....and pulls the engine completely out of the cowling....to where you do a single engine taxi back to the gate.....and explain to the boss how these "snap feather checks".....dont work......
..... now ya know why we have mechanics.....PB
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Hence the reason that I always carry out this check before every flight, regardless of whether or not there are pax on board.
I have done this some 1262 times now - and each time, to date, it has only bent in half - hence my lack of success with the ladies of the north.
It also explains the appearance of a new "disease" among the black-tailed cockatoos - Stumpy-tail Syndrome.
I believe it also holds true for the tail feather from a Bird of Paradise, and I am surprised that a man of your experience in PNG was not aware of this!
BC
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I am PA31 endorsed, with a grand total of about 10 hr on type, but I have peddled a C402 around northern Oz for more than a few hours. As far as I can recall there is not a lot of difference between them
