Multi-Engine runups
Thread Starter
Multi-Engine runups
Gday all,
Just a quick question for all the twin charter pilots out there (Baron's, Cheiftains, 402's)
If you have minimal notice for a flight which is also the first flight of the day- what do you do with engine runups?
Do you
1. Do them very quickly while taxiing on the brakes(both at the same time or asymetrically?)
2. Do them quickly at the hold point
3. Try and get them done before pax arrive.
4. Jump into the runup bay with pax loaded.
The reason I ask is that I'm currently combining an initial twin and MECIR in a Baron and doing the runups in the runup bay takes A WHILE. Do charter ME checks get done properly? Or is it a case of "it flew alright yesterday-it should be right today"?
Cheers
Just a quick question for all the twin charter pilots out there (Baron's, Cheiftains, 402's)
If you have minimal notice for a flight which is also the first flight of the day- what do you do with engine runups?
Do you
1. Do them very quickly while taxiing on the brakes(both at the same time or asymetrically?)
2. Do them quickly at the hold point
3. Try and get them done before pax arrive.
4. Jump into the runup bay with pax loaded.
The reason I ask is that I'm currently combining an initial twin and MECIR in a Baron and doing the runups in the runup bay takes A WHILE. Do charter ME checks get done properly? Or is it a case of "it flew alright yesterday-it should be right today"?
Cheers
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Think about it
I only PIC a 4 seat single, and if I had to do my run ups twice, for whatever reason, i would do them regardless of time constraints.
There are plenty of folk here who would say.....read about this accident, what about when......
Maybe your PAX dont have much to live for, but if you do.....dont stress over them being a few minutes late. If its that desperate for time, and you have the fuel, do a few more knots, fly a straight in approach at the other end. The few minutes it takes to do your checks is not time wasted in my opinion.
Better to be late to your destination than on time for your funeral!
J
There are plenty of folk here who would say.....read about this accident, what about when......
Maybe your PAX dont have much to live for, but if you do.....dont stress over them being a few minutes late. If its that desperate for time, and you have the fuel, do a few more knots, fly a straight in approach at the other end. The few minutes it takes to do your checks is not time wasted in my opinion.
Better to be late to your destination than on time for your funeral!
J
Chadzat
I am sure your post will get replies from guys with heaps more operational experience than I have, but for what its worth, I have always done what the CFI/CP has required. For training and renewals I have generally used a check list and done pre-TO checkes and run-ups in the run-up bay or at the holding point, or even on the end of the runway.
Operationally, I have thrown away the checklist (see other Threads in this forum), and done most of the checks in the parking bay and the run-ups while taxying (has also been discussed in some detail elsewhere in here).
FTDK
I am sure your post will get replies from guys with heaps more operational experience than I have, but for what its worth, I have always done what the CFI/CP has required. For training and renewals I have generally used a check list and done pre-TO checkes and run-ups in the run-up bay or at the holding point, or even on the end of the runway.
Operationally, I have thrown away the checklist (see other Threads in this forum), and done most of the checks in the parking bay and the run-ups while taxying (has also been discussed in some detail elsewhere in here).
FTDK
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 20th Jan 2007 at 02:33.
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Chadzat
To Answer your question.
1.Doing runups on the run (while taxying) is poor airmanship, plain and simple. You cannot keep an adequate lookout and do a thorough runup simaltaneously, one or the other will suffer with potentially dire consequenses. Even more so at night. Pull into the runupbay, pull the parkbrake on, and take your time.
2.Full runups are not something that should be done quickly. Runups at the hold point will just hold up other traffic. At a controlled aerodrome you could potentially embarrass yourself by finding a fouled plug then have to return to the parking area via the runway.
3.Getting them done before pax arrive may be an option for you but never ever takeoff without doing at least a Mag check prior to each and every departure.
4. Whats wrong with runups with pax on board? A seasoned GA passenger would certainly think it odd if you taxied out without doing runups.
Mate, the speed at which you complete a task is not a demonstration of competency.
Hope this helps
Cheers
5L&R
To Answer your question.
1.Doing runups on the run (while taxying) is poor airmanship, plain and simple. You cannot keep an adequate lookout and do a thorough runup simaltaneously, one or the other will suffer with potentially dire consequenses. Even more so at night. Pull into the runupbay, pull the parkbrake on, and take your time.
2.Full runups are not something that should be done quickly. Runups at the hold point will just hold up other traffic. At a controlled aerodrome you could potentially embarrass yourself by finding a fouled plug then have to return to the parking area via the runway.
3.Getting them done before pax arrive may be an option for you but never ever takeoff without doing at least a Mag check prior to each and every departure.
4. Whats wrong with runups with pax on board? A seasoned GA passenger would certainly think it odd if you taxied out without doing runups.
Mate, the speed at which you complete a task is not a demonstration of competency.
Hope this helps
Cheers
5L&R
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I'm with you bushy,
We did preflight, engine warm and runups prior to pax arrival (finishing about 5-10mins to their eta) and then they could be seated, briefed and on their way in no time
S2K
We did preflight, engine warm and runups prior to pax arrival (finishing about 5-10mins to their eta) and then they could be seated, briefed and on their way in no time
S2K
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Single or twin, piston or turbine, it doesn't matter.
1. Who put the idea into your head that in order to be a charter pilot you need to cut corners? Punch that person in the nose, they nearly gave you an attitude that put you out of a job before you started. You need to be efficient, yes. That does not mean you leave things out!
2. The idea of a daily inspection and runup is to find out if there is anything wrong with the aeroplane. It is your duty to be ready to can the flight if all is not working as it should.
Also, noisy runups have pax wondering what you are doing. When people board an aeroplane they expect to go somewhere. It is also psychologically harder for some new pilots to 'pull the pin' when a runup reveals a niggling discrepancy if there are pax on board. You could be influenced to play down your concerns about something a little out of the ordinary. It is much easier to turn around and taxi to the hangar for attention if the pax are not aboard, but comfortably waiting in the charter office.
3. If you are rostered on for the day, one of two things will happen. One, there will be a charter notified. Or, there is the possibility of a charter.
If it is the second, turn up at your nominated or self-determined sign-on time.
Whether it is a GAAP aerodrome, YAYE scenics, or a bush airstrip, do a daily inspection, run it up, and park it. Go inside and look up the weather and NOTAMS for the ports you are likely to fly to. Have a flight plan form with the captain and callsign filled in if you are IFR.
Now all you have to do is wait for a charter. Coffee, white and one. Read picture magazine or ATPL theory book depending on your mood. Hurry up and wait. Welcome to charter. Or Aeromed. Or polair. Or aero rescue
4. When you get into bigger and bigger aeroplanes in professional aviation, there are two phases. Endorsement (Type Rating) and Line Training. Endorsement/TR is all about learning how to fly the beastie. Line Training is all about flying it effectively in the operational environment. Your Baron checkout is an Endorsement.
Once you have done your Endorsement, try this game.
Turn up at the aerodrome and note the time on your watch. Go out to the aeroplane and do a thorough preflight, start, taxi out, runup, taxi back, shut down. Note the time on your watch. Write down how long it takes you to do a preflight.
Walk into your flight planning room. Get a briefing and do a flight plan for a three stage IFR flight. Work out your fuel, submit a flight plan as NOSEND and staple it all together just as though you were about to go flying. Note the time on your watch. Write down how long it takes you to do a full flightplan and submit it.
Go back out to the aeroplane. Taxi it to the bowser if thats whats at your 'drome. See how long it takes to refuel it and taxi back ready for pax. Do a practice pax brief out loud to the empty seats. Note the time on your watch.
Get the idea?
Add those times up. Add 15 minutes to allow for farkups, refueller not available, NAIPS offline, etc. That is how long you need from office door to airborne.
If a television news crew rings you up to say -- there's one thousand naked swiss backpackers picketing Ayers Rock Resort, how soon can you get us there, tell them the flight time plus your prep time plus a farkup factor.
Never attempt to short cut it until you have 500-1000hrs. You will get more efficient, but you have to be alive and still holding down a job to get that far.
Good luck!
1. Who put the idea into your head that in order to be a charter pilot you need to cut corners? Punch that person in the nose, they nearly gave you an attitude that put you out of a job before you started. You need to be efficient, yes. That does not mean you leave things out!
2. The idea of a daily inspection and runup is to find out if there is anything wrong with the aeroplane. It is your duty to be ready to can the flight if all is not working as it should.
Also, noisy runups have pax wondering what you are doing. When people board an aeroplane they expect to go somewhere. It is also psychologically harder for some new pilots to 'pull the pin' when a runup reveals a niggling discrepancy if there are pax on board. You could be influenced to play down your concerns about something a little out of the ordinary. It is much easier to turn around and taxi to the hangar for attention if the pax are not aboard, but comfortably waiting in the charter office.
3. If you are rostered on for the day, one of two things will happen. One, there will be a charter notified. Or, there is the possibility of a charter.
If it is the second, turn up at your nominated or self-determined sign-on time.
Whether it is a GAAP aerodrome, YAYE scenics, or a bush airstrip, do a daily inspection, run it up, and park it. Go inside and look up the weather and NOTAMS for the ports you are likely to fly to. Have a flight plan form with the captain and callsign filled in if you are IFR.
Now all you have to do is wait for a charter. Coffee, white and one. Read picture magazine or ATPL theory book depending on your mood. Hurry up and wait. Welcome to charter. Or Aeromed. Or polair. Or aero rescue
4. When you get into bigger and bigger aeroplanes in professional aviation, there are two phases. Endorsement (Type Rating) and Line Training. Endorsement/TR is all about learning how to fly the beastie. Line Training is all about flying it effectively in the operational environment. Your Baron checkout is an Endorsement.
Once you have done your Endorsement, try this game.
Turn up at the aerodrome and note the time on your watch. Go out to the aeroplane and do a thorough preflight, start, taxi out, runup, taxi back, shut down. Note the time on your watch. Write down how long it takes you to do a preflight.
Walk into your flight planning room. Get a briefing and do a flight plan for a three stage IFR flight. Work out your fuel, submit a flight plan as NOSEND and staple it all together just as though you were about to go flying. Note the time on your watch. Write down how long it takes you to do a full flightplan and submit it.
Go back out to the aeroplane. Taxi it to the bowser if thats whats at your 'drome. See how long it takes to refuel it and taxi back ready for pax. Do a practice pax brief out loud to the empty seats. Note the time on your watch.
Get the idea?
Add those times up. Add 15 minutes to allow for farkups, refueller not available, NAIPS offline, etc. That is how long you need from office door to airborne.
If a television news crew rings you up to say -- there's one thousand naked swiss backpackers picketing Ayers Rock Resort, how soon can you get us there, tell them the flight time plus your prep time plus a farkup factor.
Never attempt to short cut it until you have 500-1000hrs. You will get more efficient, but you have to be alive and still holding down a job to get that far.
Good luck!
Last edited by ITCZ; 19th Jan 2007 at 01:45.
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What if there's a problem
Very good posts so far, especially ITCZ.
Do the pre-flight, engine warm and runups first, then if you have any defects or problems, there is time to get an engineer to fix the problem, sign off the defect or source another aircraft.
You want the most recent weather report, so wait for the top of the hour before requesting. Remember, you aren't an aeroclub pilot now. The standard answer from flight request to airborne is one hour.
Fly professionally,
ECT?
Do the pre-flight, engine warm and runups first, then if you have any defects or problems, there is time to get an engineer to fix the problem, sign off the defect or source another aircraft.
You want the most recent weather report, so wait for the top of the hour before requesting. Remember, you aren't an aeroclub pilot now. The standard answer from flight request to airborne is one hour.
Fly professionally,
ECT?
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Cheers ECT, we were all boggies once, eh? I was lucky to have some good people around me to guide me. Just passing on their advice.
Another way to put it.
PPL -> CPL is not much different from: good home cook -> chef, or diy painter -> professional painter.
A chef at a city hotel is not necessarily better at cooking than a good home cook.
A professional painter and decorator does not necessarily do a better job of painting than the homeowner. But the painter sizes up the job and says, ok, I will undercoat this room and sand the next one while that is drying, apply top coat to room 1 then undercoat 2 and 3, etc. Thats why they can paint a whole 4 bedroom house in 3 days or less, when it takes you a month!
They achieve this by knowing how long each task takes, so many minutes if things are going well, so many minutes if things are going not so well.
Thats what our mate has to learn.
Example, do your daily and runup before your plan. Because fixing an aeroplane takes longer than putting paper in the NAIPS printer. You can identify a minor problem and maybe have it being fixed by the LAME while you are attending to something else that needs doing. Might not even delay your departure.
Another way to put it.
PPL -> CPL is not much different from: good home cook -> chef, or diy painter -> professional painter.
A chef at a city hotel is not necessarily better at cooking than a good home cook.
A professional painter and decorator does not necessarily do a better job of painting than the homeowner. But the painter sizes up the job and says, ok, I will undercoat this room and sand the next one while that is drying, apply top coat to room 1 then undercoat 2 and 3, etc. Thats why they can paint a whole 4 bedroom house in 3 days or less, when it takes you a month!
They achieve this by knowing how long each task takes, so many minutes if things are going well, so many minutes if things are going not so well.
Thats what our mate has to learn.
Example, do your daily and runup before your plan. Because fixing an aeroplane takes longer than putting paper in the NAIPS printer. You can identify a minor problem and maybe have it being fixed by the LAME while you are attending to something else that needs doing. Might not even delay your departure.
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Gday,
Well done JetA
'tis just as important as the preflight in a commercial op
as is a walk around at each stop along the way, fuel caps, cowl fasteners, wing locker catches, roos hiding in the shade of the aeroplane.......
Do as ITCZ says and you will become more efficient with time
Enjoy,
Cheers,
Con
Well done JetA
'tis just as important as the preflight in a commercial op
as is a walk around at each stop along the way, fuel caps, cowl fasteners, wing locker catches, roos hiding in the shade of the aeroplane.......
Do as ITCZ says and you will become more efficient with time
Enjoy,
Cheers,
Con
I think there are pills you can get for Oldtimers Disease these days.
Sorry, but there is no bitumen apron at Karumba, just a square of concrete for the RPT to park their props over and a couple of bits of conveyor belting, if there is not already an aeroplane parked over them.
FTDK
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5 Left & Right
Let me get this correct!
You think it is not possible to safely conduct an effective run-up in a Baron while taxing ("poor airmanship"), cause it requires doing a few things at once - but having done your run-ups while stationary somewhere you are happy to launch into single-pilot IFR in a light twin, probably the most demanding multi-tasking environment in GA.
Yeah, right!
BC
Let me get this correct!
You think it is not possible to safely conduct an effective run-up in a Baron while taxing ("poor airmanship"), cause it requires doing a few things at once - but having done your run-ups while stationary somewhere you are happy to launch into single-pilot IFR in a light twin, probably the most demanding multi-tasking environment in GA.
Yeah, right!
BC
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I'll bet 50% of you haven't ever even SEEN a full run-up on a Chieftain or similar. It takes time and is not something you'd do on the way down the runway or taxiway. Find some grass, concrete or bitumen. If you can't, write a letter to the council or aerodrome operator and tell them as a matter of safety they need a block of concrete.
X
X
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Great post ITCZ
Until the last sentence.
What makes you think its OK to shortcut things once you have 500-1000hrs. You shouldn't shortcut anything no matter what your experience level is. And what makes you think 500-1000hrs is experienced anyway.
Until the last sentence.
What makes you think its OK to shortcut things once you have 500-1000hrs. You shouldn't shortcut anything no matter what your experience level is. And what makes you think 500-1000hrs is experienced anyway.
Last edited by barondriver; 19th Jan 2007 at 04:51.
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Gawd, this has opened a can of worms hasnt it!!? 
Couldnt agree more ITCZ.
But depending on the experience of the pilot i believe it better to always do stationary runups before takeoff, doing full runups on the move can take a bit of time so you dont want to be riding the brakes for that long, wearing them out quicker than necessary.
Theres usually always somewhere on an airfield to safely conduct runups without damaging the props, do it on the runway if there is little traffic around (unless its a nasty gravel one)
Sure you can warm up the engines and do other checks like fuel X-feeds, Autopilot etc etc before the pax get there, but there is always the odd chance that the overly rich mixture may cause fouling if you have a long taxi to the runway, therefore a Mag check should always be done before take off.
Chadzat, imho you should try and do them stationary where possible, assymetric runups on the move would be a nightmare, at the same time produces unnecessary wear and tear, if you do your long checks prior to pax arriving then you should always do another mag check before you take off (probably the best option) and adding the pitch checks doesnt take long either...
Its good airmanship, it adds negligable time to the trip, and im sure the passengers will get over it due to the fact that is for their SAFETY...
Turbz
1. Who put the idea into your head that in order to be a charter pilot you need to cut corners? Punch that person in the nose, they nearly gave you an attitude that put you out of a job before you started. You need to be efficient, yes. That does not mean you leave things out!
But depending on the experience of the pilot i believe it better to always do stationary runups before takeoff, doing full runups on the move can take a bit of time so you dont want to be riding the brakes for that long, wearing them out quicker than necessary.
Theres usually always somewhere on an airfield to safely conduct runups without damaging the props, do it on the runway if there is little traffic around (unless its a nasty gravel one)
Sure you can warm up the engines and do other checks like fuel X-feeds, Autopilot etc etc before the pax get there, but there is always the odd chance that the overly rich mixture may cause fouling if you have a long taxi to the runway, therefore a Mag check should always be done before take off.
Chadzat, imho you should try and do them stationary where possible, assymetric runups on the move would be a nightmare, at the same time produces unnecessary wear and tear, if you do your long checks prior to pax arriving then you should always do another mag check before you take off (probably the best option) and adding the pitch checks doesnt take long either...
Its good airmanship, it adds negligable time to the trip, and im sure the passengers will get over it due to the fact that is for their SAFETY...
Turbz
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Funny how an opinion can get people so revved up.
Forktailed
I have been to Karumba more times than you have had hot dinners. That's what the concrete pads are for. Of course runups on loose stones require some different techniques to preserve the props.
Broken Conrod
The human brain is a single channel processor. It is only capable of doing one thing at once. Sometimes it can do different things in very quick succession giving the illusion of doing multiple tasks at once, but its just an illusion.
Go-ahead and do runups while you taxi if you want to, but remember your Co-pilot Murphy. One day you will either miss something on the runup, or taxi into something.
Cheers
Forktailed
I have been to Karumba more times than you have had hot dinners. That's what the concrete pads are for. Of course runups on loose stones require some different techniques to preserve the props.
Broken Conrod
The human brain is a single channel processor. It is only capable of doing one thing at once. Sometimes it can do different things in very quick succession giving the illusion of doing multiple tasks at once, but its just an illusion.
Go-ahead and do runups while you taxi if you want to, but remember your Co-pilot Murphy. One day you will either miss something on the runup, or taxi into something.
Cheers