Top rudder in turns
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1975 Model owners handbook (U206F)
0 - 10 deg 160MPH, 10 - 40 deg 120MPH (138 kts & 104 kts)
ASI markings flap operating range (white arc) 66-120 MPH
Check the markings adjacent to the flap control, on the Cessna they normally have the speeds marked next to the indent (on the newer types)
0 - 10 deg 160MPH, 10 - 40 deg 120MPH (138 kts & 104 kts)
ASI markings flap operating range (white arc) 66-120 MPH
Check the markings adjacent to the flap control, on the Cessna they normally have the speeds marked next to the indent (on the newer types)
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Top rudders, shock cooling etc
1. Chimbu, thanks for the comprehensive reply re shock cooling. I'll check out your method next time I fly. Mind if I PM you? (I don't wanna hijack the thread)
2. Top rudder - Aerocat's definition of top rudder, I guess, is narrower than I was thinking. I've been thinking about this quite a bit. (I guess I need a hobby
) In my Spezio, in a very steep turn, if I roll hard and pull enough back pressure to stay level, the nose definitely does not display adverse yaw - it drops towards the ground, and I can feel it's out of balance, so I need to apply top rudder - ie, by my definition, right rudder in a left steep turn - to keep the aircraft in balance. There's nothing particularly aerodynamically crazy about the Spezio, it's just an old design. It shows definite adverse yaw in shallow banks, but the opposite in steep banks. Am I hallucinating?
2. Top rudder - Aerocat's definition of top rudder, I guess, is narrower than I was thinking. I've been thinking about this quite a bit. (I guess I need a hobby
) In my Spezio, in a very steep turn, if I roll hard and pull enough back pressure to stay level, the nose definitely does not display adverse yaw - it drops towards the ground, and I can feel it's out of balance, so I need to apply top rudder - ie, by my definition, right rudder in a left steep turn - to keep the aircraft in balance. There's nothing particularly aerodynamically crazy about the Spezio, it's just an old design. It shows definite adverse yaw in shallow banks, but the opposite in steep banks. Am I hallucinating?
If the nose drops to the ground.....
A) You dont have enough back pressure or
B) The aircraft is completely out of balance as you entered the turn you have commenced the beginning of a mild spiral dive.... hence why if continue to apply back pressure but it just doesn't want to maintain height but I am pulling G's that feel normal.... so we will use a little rudder to raise that nose attitude a little....
Not really that good and I wouldn't recommend it. The control issues it exagerates in a low powered learn to fly aircraft can be bad for someone starting out.
If you really want to, trying this a climbing turn is a good start. Now just increase that angle of bank a little, try the hold the climb attitude with rudder and HOLD!!! HOLD!!!! HOLD!!! OH
!
May I suggest a C152 and an instructor with experience in aerobatics.
or
C) the aircraft is bent like most GA aircraft .....
Top rudder may just be a balance issue... Just have a look see.
A) You dont have enough back pressure or
B) The aircraft is completely out of balance as you entered the turn you have commenced the beginning of a mild spiral dive.... hence why if continue to apply back pressure but it just doesn't want to maintain height but I am pulling G's that feel normal.... so we will use a little rudder to raise that nose attitude a little....
Not really that good and I wouldn't recommend it. The control issues it exagerates in a low powered learn to fly aircraft can be bad for someone starting out.
If you really want to, trying this a climbing turn is a good start. Now just increase that angle of bank a little, try the hold the climb attitude with rudder and HOLD!!! HOLD!!!! HOLD!!! OH
! May I suggest a C152 and an instructor with experience in aerobatics.
or
C) the aircraft is bent like most GA aircraft .....
Top rudder may just be a balance issue... Just have a look see.
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Top rudder
Bula, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try both. The Spezio is out of the air right now - it'll be interesting to check it out. I am wondering if maybe I'm not applying enough back pressure, but...um...hell, I dunno. When it's ready to fly again I'll do a little experimentation.
I don't think I'm flying it out of balance, but I'll explore that possibility too. Up until now, I really did just think that for unknown reasons, it requires top rudder in a steep turn. It's not a biggie to me - I just mentioned it on this thread cos it seemed pertinent. I'm VERY interested in Chimbu's comments about about shock cooling though - the Harmon Rocket I fly - a hopped up IO540 with a CSU, can easily exceed 210 knots on descent, with low power settings, and this whams the CHT's down pretty fast, and that, unlike aircraft requiring top rudder due to design flaw/faulty construction/pilot error, could be VERY expensive!
I don't think I'm flying it out of balance, but I'll explore that possibility too. Up until now, I really did just think that for unknown reasons, it requires top rudder in a steep turn. It's not a biggie to me - I just mentioned it on this thread cos it seemed pertinent. I'm VERY interested in Chimbu's comments about about shock cooling though - the Harmon Rocket I fly - a hopped up IO540 with a CSU, can easily exceed 210 knots on descent, with low power settings, and this whams the CHT's down pretty fast, and that, unlike aircraft requiring top rudder due to design flaw/faulty construction/pilot error, could be VERY expensive!
Ahhh, roll off 20deg. No aircraft can maintain an inbalance 90deg AOB turn for long. If its for purely for aesthetic reasons then find an aircraft with AMAZING rudder authority but be prepared to have your internal organs momentarily displaced
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Can anyone tell me how to hold the nose up in a 90 degree AOB turn?
How's your theory on turning flight? Just what is a "steady state" turn anyway? To rephrase the question, are the forces in equilibrium during a turn?
To see the "forces in a turn" diagram that instructors draw on the whiteboard you would realise that these instructors do not have a grasp on the physics of turning flight; they would get the previous question wrong.
Does the aircraft yaw during a turn? Does it roll? Does it pitch?
Answers:
The forces are not in equilibrium. Turning flight is accelerated flight.
During a turn, the aircraft is continuously yawing and rolling, but there is no pitching (unless we are talking about an aerobatic aircraft doing a 90 degree AoB "turn", in which case it is all pitch with no roll or yaw).
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I use 'top' rudder in a turn everytime I fly my Bonanza...turning left onto crosswind after takeoff with full power (lots of torque) and slow speed...less than 110kts usually....If I was turning right I would be using more right or 'bottom' rudder...and actually when I use 'top'/right rudder on the left turn I am actually using less right rudder than was the case before the turn commenced...if you get my drift
Like I said above...lots of torque or strange aerodynamics...and I would be very surprised if many/any aeroplanes have flown/still fly with aerodynamic properties that strange...plenty with lots of torque/P factor at slow speed though.
AP I assume you mean 4 point roll not 4 point turn
Like I said above...lots of torque or strange aerodynamics...and I would be very surprised if many/any aeroplanes have flown/still fly with aerodynamic properties that strange...plenty with lots of torque/P factor at slow speed though.
AP I assume you mean 4 point roll not 4 point turn
Now we have people discussing shock cooling and other short cuts that will just confuse the poor bloke who started the thread!
Maybe another thread should be started on "shock cooling" and "bush tips and short cuts"
4S
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Just what is a "steady state" turn anyway? To rephrase the question, are the forces in equilibrium during a turn?
To see the "forces in a turn" diagram that instructors draw on the whiteboard you would realise that these instructors do not have a grasp on the physics of turning flight; they would get the previous question wrong.
Does the aircraft yaw during a turn? Does it roll? Does it pitch?
Answers:
The forces are not in equilibrium. Turning flight is accelerated flight.
During a turn, the aircraft is continuously yawing and rolling, but there is no pitching (unless we are talking about an aerobatic aircraft doing a 90 degree AoB "turn", in which case it is all pitch with no roll or yaw).
To see the "forces in a turn" diagram that instructors draw on the whiteboard you would realise that these instructors do not have a grasp on the physics of turning flight; they would get the previous question wrong.
Does the aircraft yaw during a turn? Does it roll? Does it pitch?
Answers:
The forces are not in equilibrium. Turning flight is accelerated flight.
During a turn, the aircraft is continuously yawing and rolling, but there is no pitching (unless we are talking about an aerobatic aircraft doing a 90 degree AoB "turn", in which case it is all pitch with no roll or yaw).
Remember centipetal and centrifugal forces
Anyway this thread kind of sucks now, im going to go to bed and get some zzzzzzs for a flight tomorrow
Safe Flying
4S
Get a model aeroplane. Make it yaw and roll in such a way that it is turning in level flight, can you do it without pitching? I can't.
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Get a model aeroplane. Make it yaw and roll in such a way that it is turning in level flight, can you do it without pitching? I can't.
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Just when you think that "Top rudder in turns" has faded into oblivion, and you think to yourself, "Good fecking riddance" - it bounces back to the top of the dung heap!
R
R
Noooo...not the treadmill!!
I don't go for the continuous rolling part, though - pitch and yaw, yes, but once the bank angle's established, it remains steady, doesn't it?
I don't go for the continuous rolling part, though - pitch and yaw, yes, but once the bank angle's established, it remains steady, doesn't it?
