Is my question "too strange"!!!
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Is my question "too strange"!!!
i'm going to start my training in an aviation school.
Before applying, i've asked that aviation school about the "insurance details".....
1) do i need to pay the insurance for the aircraft?
2) what does the insurance cover for?
3) If i died/ injured during training, how much can i/my family claim from the insurance?
There are the answers i've got:
1) the school has already paid for the insurance once the aircraft flying....
2) the insurance will cover the "whole aircraft" --> included the pilot and passengers.....
3) they don't like to provide me the details!!!
Is my question "too strange"!!!
Before applying, i've asked that aviation school about the "insurance details".....
1) do i need to pay the insurance for the aircraft?
2) what does the insurance cover for?
3) If i died/ injured during training, how much can i/my family claim from the insurance?
There are the answers i've got:
1) the school has already paid for the insurance once the aircraft flying....
2) the insurance will cover the "whole aircraft" --> included the pilot and passengers.....
3) they don't like to provide me the details!!!
Is my question "too strange"!!!
This might be a bit harsh, but have a go at this...
I'm no lawyer, just a pilot. And if a potential student asked me that last question, I'd honestly reply "I don't know..." whilst mentally reminding myself NOT to fly with you. Truthfully! I'd be concerned that you were possibly on a money raising venture, conveniantly paired with a suicide wish.
Really, there are many more important things to think about before taking up flying. The hours, hard work, enjoyment, study, school, instructors, money etc - but don't waste your time contemplating death and injury and life insurance.
I'm no lawyer, just a pilot. And if a potential student asked me that last question, I'd honestly reply "I don't know..." whilst mentally reminding myself NOT to fly with you. Truthfully! I'd be concerned that you were possibly on a money raising venture, conveniantly paired with a suicide wish.
Really, there are many more important things to think about before taking up flying. The hours, hard work, enjoyment, study, school, instructors, money etc - but don't waste your time contemplating death and injury and life insurance.
Last edited by Runaway Gun; 2nd Dec 2006 at 14:35. Reason: I carnt spel
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Thanks for your comment, Runaway Gun.
But in my point of view, i have to think about my family.
i don't want to bring any "trouble" to my family if any accident happened!!
(i'm not a sad person, but i have to think about the worst case)
Frankly, i just want to clear my rights before i pay the money!!
(and i really don't want any accident happen
)
But in my point of view, i have to think about my family.
i don't want to bring any "trouble" to my family if any accident happened!!
(i'm not a sad person, but i have to think about the worst case)
Frankly, i just want to clear my rights before i pay the money!!
(and i really don't want any accident happen
)
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It's a perfectly fair question. In the airline world, that information is printed on the ticket.
The simple answer is that the aircraft (hull) is insured, through a broker, by the Aero Club. The passengers may be insured for some nominal amount, but in the end it will come down to the issue of fault and liability. The instructor should be insured by the club against third-party liabilities (ie you).
Therefore, if you were killed in an accident that was your fault, your family will get nothing unless you carry personal life insurance WITH AN AVIATION WAIVER. If you are killed in an aircraft accident and it isn't your fault (ie mechanical failure or instructor error, or something similar), you are at liberty to sue the Aero Club and/or the instructor (in other words, their insurance company) for damages. If you were in the USA you could expect a multi-million dollar payout if blame could be pinned on another party, however in OZ or NZ you are a lot less likely to get a massive payout. People still try, though.
The moral of the story is to have your own personal life insurance, and don't forget to get an aviation waiver if your insurance company requires one (normally costs a bit extra).
The Aero Club are probably not telling you because they don't know - try writing them a letter.
The simple answer is that the aircraft (hull) is insured, through a broker, by the Aero Club. The passengers may be insured for some nominal amount, but in the end it will come down to the issue of fault and liability. The instructor should be insured by the club against third-party liabilities (ie you).
Therefore, if you were killed in an accident that was your fault, your family will get nothing unless you carry personal life insurance WITH AN AVIATION WAIVER. If you are killed in an aircraft accident and it isn't your fault (ie mechanical failure or instructor error, or something similar), you are at liberty to sue the Aero Club and/or the instructor (in other words, their insurance company) for damages. If you were in the USA you could expect a multi-million dollar payout if blame could be pinned on another party, however in OZ or NZ you are a lot less likely to get a massive payout. People still try, though.
The moral of the story is to have your own personal life insurance, and don't forget to get an aviation waiver if your insurance company requires one (normally costs a bit extra).
The Aero Club are probably not telling you because they don't know - try writing them a letter.
Is my question too strange ?
It is not a strange question at all. It is an uncommon question. It certainly is a reasonable question. My advice to you would be ask the training organisation if you can have contact details of their insurance broker/ company. I do not believe any organisation would deliberately mislead you, but because it is such a rare question the personnel may not know all the details. Avoid the risk of chinese whispers and get it straight from the horses mouth. Enjoy your flying and all the best with it. Cheers.
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I can fly
Its a perfectly reasonable question to ask and I suggest of a flying school can't (or won't ) answer it to your satisfaction - go elsewhere.
Remoak is pretty much on the money.
The other thing you should look into is carrying your own insurance against having an insurance company coming after you to recover their costs if the prang was your fault.
I mostly fly on private operations for my employer and carry such insurance through my employer.
R
Its a perfectly reasonable question to ask and I suggest of a flying school can't (or won't ) answer it to your satisfaction - go elsewhere.
Remoak is pretty much on the money.
The other thing you should look into is carrying your own insurance against having an insurance company coming after you to recover their costs if the prang was your fault.
I mostly fly on private operations for my employer and carry such insurance through my employer.
R
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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With many organizations, you will be liable for the insurance excess regardless of fault, for the time the aircraft is under your control. Not just engine running time. That is, from the time you take the keys until you bring them back. We had a case recently where a hirer completed a daily inspecton, signed a maintenance release to the effect that the aircraft was airworthy then proceded to break a perspex side window. Tried to tell us the window was broken when he did the daily. Court found in our favour 
Pretty similar to most hire car agreements these days.
Pretty similar to most hire car agreements these days.
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Insurance Questions
i'm going to start my training in an aviation school.
Before applying, i've asked that aviation school about the "insurance details".....
1) do i need to pay the insurance for the aircraft?
2) what does the insurance cover for?
3) If i died/ injured during training, how much can i/my family claim from the insurance?
There are the answers i've got:
1) the school has already paid for the insurance once the aircraft flying....
2) the insurance will cover the "whole aircraft" --> included the pilot and passengers.....
3) they don't like to provide me the details!!!
Is my question "too strange"!!!
Before applying, i've asked that aviation school about the "insurance details".....
1) do i need to pay the insurance for the aircraft?
2) what does the insurance cover for?
3) If i died/ injured during training, how much can i/my family claim from the insurance?
There are the answers i've got:
1) the school has already paid for the insurance once the aircraft flying....
2) the insurance will cover the "whole aircraft" --> included the pilot and passengers.....
3) they don't like to provide me the details!!!
Is my question "too strange"!!!
1.You dont need to pay insurance separately. It is included in the rate the school is charging you for the training.
2.The coverage varies but is for the ACFT and the pilot & passenges. The key coverage for you is third party cover to cover you for crashing into something expensive. This should limit the exposure of your family to have the pay for anything in your absence.
3.Usually nothing without suing the operator or some other entity for negligence (if that were a factor). You would need separate life, disability, income protection insurance etc. You will usually (but not always) need to disclose your flying activities on a life insurance policy (as per remoak's comments).
If you are really concerned I would suggest you speak to an aviation insurance broker, or better still the broker that wrote the business for your school.
I can point you to some policy boilerplate if you want to see what a typical policy looks like - PM me if you want some more info.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Or another way to calculate your excess will normally be 1% of hull value or cost for repairs, which ever is the lesser.
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The manager of the organisation should be able to answer #3, they're not much of a manager if they can't, seeing as they arrange the insurance.
Regarding the excess liability, where I was it was decided to establish an excess fund for the fleet by charging an extra $1 per hour on each aircraft. This followed a number of minor incidents that required insurance payouts, including solo students- nominally under supervision of instructors while doing PIC training. The ill will and hassle created by attempts to appropriate blame were not helpful. A similiar organisation locally requires/allows its members to pay $50 annually into an excess fund.
Regarding the excess liability, where I was it was decided to establish an excess fund for the fleet by charging an extra $1 per hour on each aircraft. This followed a number of minor incidents that required insurance payouts, including solo students- nominally under supervision of instructors while doing PIC training. The ill will and hassle created by attempts to appropriate blame were not helpful. A similiar organisation locally requires/allows its members to pay $50 annually into an excess fund.
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ALWAYS ask about insurance on the aircraft that you fly.
Without reading the fine print at many schools or perhaps when you sign the "sign-out" sheet, you may in fact agree to be paying the aircraft's insurance excess of around $2k - $5k if you crash it for them.
Many recreational aircraft aren't insured at all and it's not a requirement for them to even have Public Liability insurance, so be wary of that too!
Without reading the fine print at many schools or perhaps when you sign the "sign-out" sheet, you may in fact agree to be paying the aircraft's insurance excess of around $2k - $5k if you crash it for them.
Many recreational aircraft aren't insured at all and it's not a requirement for them to even have Public Liability insurance, so be wary of that too!
Nunc est bibendum
It IS a strange question because the truthful answer from anyone with half a decent knowledge of the law would always be 'it depends'. The nature of the accident will have a large impact on the issue as will the nature of any 'negligence' and the reasonable person test.
If the engine failed (and it was over hauled and maintained IAW the manufacturers instructions) and the instructor or you make the right decisions IAW the training you have received and the SOPs and you still die (due to being over tiger country) then you're going to have a hard time getting cash out of anyone. Your estate would have to prove that being over tiger country (and thus not having a suitable place to conduct a forced landing) is negligent or that it wouldn't be done by a 'reasonable person'. You're going to be hard pressed to find anyone who will be able to make a case on that basis- especially given the large number of SE IFR flights that flog around Australia at various times.
A more effective question to ask would be 'under what circumstances would my family be eligible to claim damages in the event of an accident'. The obvious answer to that is any circumstance in which negligence is involved and whatever else is covered in the insurance policy (if any). In that respect you'll find that the school will have 'liability insurance' and so that is how much you are after. However the amount of money your family can claim will depend on many factors also- how much you currently earn, how much you could reasonably be expected to earn in the future, the nature of your disabilities and so on.
So in short you shouldn't be asking the school questions like this at all. You want to be asking what their insurance is and taking THAT to YOUR solicitor who for a fee will be prepared to discuss with you ad infinitum exactly what you can claim in the unlikely event that you meet your demise in the air.
Finally, you do realise that you're at greater risk of being killed on the drive to the airfield than in the air learning to fly! You don't ask every other driver on the road about their insurance do you? If you're concerned about the issue then perhaps personal life insurance (which won't cover aviation unless you get a waiver and then watch the amount sky rocket) is the way for you to go!
If the engine failed (and it was over hauled and maintained IAW the manufacturers instructions) and the instructor or you make the right decisions IAW the training you have received and the SOPs and you still die (due to being over tiger country) then you're going to have a hard time getting cash out of anyone. Your estate would have to prove that being over tiger country (and thus not having a suitable place to conduct a forced landing) is negligent or that it wouldn't be done by a 'reasonable person'. You're going to be hard pressed to find anyone who will be able to make a case on that basis- especially given the large number of SE IFR flights that flog around Australia at various times.
A more effective question to ask would be 'under what circumstances would my family be eligible to claim damages in the event of an accident'. The obvious answer to that is any circumstance in which negligence is involved and whatever else is covered in the insurance policy (if any). In that respect you'll find that the school will have 'liability insurance' and so that is how much you are after. However the amount of money your family can claim will depend on many factors also- how much you currently earn, how much you could reasonably be expected to earn in the future, the nature of your disabilities and so on.
So in short you shouldn't be asking the school questions like this at all. You want to be asking what their insurance is and taking THAT to YOUR solicitor who for a fee will be prepared to discuss with you ad infinitum exactly what you can claim in the unlikely event that you meet your demise in the air.
Finally, you do realise that you're at greater risk of being killed on the drive to the airfield than in the air learning to fly! You don't ask every other driver on the road about their insurance do you? If you're concerned about the issue then perhaps personal life insurance (which won't cover aviation unless you get a waiver and then watch the amount sky rocket) is the way for you to go!
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If the aircraft is in charter category CASA requires it to carry $1M per passenger in liability. Have a look at the maintenance release, it'll tell you if the plane is in charter category - then you will know that (if the owner/operator has done the right thing) the plane has that level of cover. There is no requirement for any cover for the pilot.
Certainly, if another pilot crashed my plane and was found to be at fault, I would expect them to pay the excess. (again 1% - 2% of hull value).
Occasionally I get a pilot with less than the precribed number of total hours required by my insurance company wanting to fly the plane. I get them indivually listed on the policy as "insured". The insurance company stipulate that if the plane is damaged while they are flying, the excess is doubled. I make sure that these pilots are aware of this fact before they fly the plane.
I'm happy to show any (potential) customer a copy of my certificate of insurance.
Certainly, if another pilot crashed my plane and was found to be at fault, I would expect them to pay the excess. (again 1% - 2% of hull value).
Occasionally I get a pilot with less than the precribed number of total hours required by my insurance company wanting to fly the plane. I get them indivually listed on the policy as "insured". The insurance company stipulate that if the plane is damaged while they are flying, the excess is doubled. I make sure that these pilots are aware of this fact before they fly the plane.
I'm happy to show any (potential) customer a copy of my certificate of insurance.
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Insurance.
The public liability insurance that is mandatory for charter aircraft is less than 1 million, per pax, about 600,000 I think.
An interesting point is that sometimes operators have to make special aviation insurance arrangements for young commercial pilots. These young pilots are not able to rent a car because of insurance requirements.
This is one of the reasons that operators often look for a bit of maturity.
It gets them lower premiums/excess.
An interesting point is that sometimes operators have to make special aviation insurance arrangements for young commercial pilots. These young pilots are not able to rent a car because of insurance requirements.
This is one of the reasons that operators often look for a bit of maturity.
It gets them lower premiums/excess.
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sorry to hijack,
if i personally pranged one of the bosses aircraft as a cpl, i wouldnt be hit with an excess would i?
Something i never really thought about!! i knew when i did my flight training i would be hit up with any excess if i did something silly, but i never thought about it at a commercial level!
Thanks to anyone who can reply!
if i personally pranged one of the bosses aircraft as a cpl, i wouldnt be hit with an excess would i?
Something i never really thought about!! i knew when i did my flight training i would be hit up with any excess if i did something silly, but i never thought about it at a commercial level!
Thanks to anyone who can reply!
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excess
The excess is normally paid to the insurance company by the holder of the insurance policy.
He, or the insurance company may decide to try to recover some of the money by legal action if they think they have a good case.
He, or the insurance company may decide to try to recover some of the money by legal action if they think they have a good case.
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Runaway Gun, harsh indeed! What a proposterous statement to make.
Just because a diligent student wants to know the ins-and-outs of insurance and liability doesn't make him any more a suicide risk and gold-digger than the next pilot.
I'd be happy he showed the responsibility of foresight to protect himself/his club/his family under such circumstances. It simply highlights their maturity and yours to the contrary. Sorry if that's a bit harsh! After reading your comment that you wouldn't fly with him, I'd say you'd be doing him a favour. Given the choice I'd certainly know who I'd rather fly with.
Your 'there are more important things to think about', forget about it, bury your head in the sand attitude is not one to promote. I'd rather see more level-headed future pilots like him in this field than chancers like yourself.
How presumptuous and cynical you are for being suspicious of someone who poses a perfectly reasonable question that deserves nothing less than a perfectly reasonable response.
And tell me, if 'money' is one of the things you deem 'more important to think about' as stated in your post, surely the event of an accident is directly related to finance?!
I do sincerely hope you never come to grief at the controls of an aircraft because I seriously doubt with such an arrogant attitude as this you've had the foresight to have left a written will to help the people you leave behind. Is death and it's direct effect on family really a 'waste of time' and not important enough for you to consider? Do us all a favour and keep your wisdom to yourself mate.
Just because a diligent student wants to know the ins-and-outs of insurance and liability doesn't make him any more a suicide risk and gold-digger than the next pilot.
I'd be happy he showed the responsibility of foresight to protect himself/his club/his family under such circumstances. It simply highlights their maturity and yours to the contrary. Sorry if that's a bit harsh! After reading your comment that you wouldn't fly with him, I'd say you'd be doing him a favour. Given the choice I'd certainly know who I'd rather fly with.
Your 'there are more important things to think about', forget about it, bury your head in the sand attitude is not one to promote. I'd rather see more level-headed future pilots like him in this field than chancers like yourself.
How presumptuous and cynical you are for being suspicious of someone who poses a perfectly reasonable question that deserves nothing less than a perfectly reasonable response.
And tell me, if 'money' is one of the things you deem 'more important to think about' as stated in your post, surely the event of an accident is directly related to finance?!
I do sincerely hope you never come to grief at the controls of an aircraft because I seriously doubt with such an arrogant attitude as this you've had the foresight to have left a written will to help the people you leave behind. Is death and it's direct effect on family really a 'waste of time' and not important enough for you to consider? Do us all a favour and keep your wisdom to yourself mate.
Last edited by Nil Flaps; 5th Dec 2006 at 04:35.
Hey Nil,
I'm only giving my opinion. His first two questions seemed innocent enough, but if someone asked me "If i died/ injured during training, how much can i/my family claim from the insurance?" then I WOULD tell him that I didn't know the answer.
It's just something that I never asked anyone when I learnt to fly, and to me it's a strange question. Yes, I was aware of my personal risks when I started flying, and I have since lost a few buddies in this game. But I fly because I love it - and not for the annoying lifestyle.
And I WOULD seriously check the customer out. There is a small chance that one person may try to kill himself in my aircraft because:
1. He is suicidal
2. He is terminally ill
3. He is in huge debt
4. He might want to plow into the Sydney Harbour Bridge during rush hour.
Check it out, these things do happen.
By the way, I'm not insinuating that Mr i-can-fly has any of these problems.
I'm only giving my opinion. His first two questions seemed innocent enough, but if someone asked me "If i died/ injured during training, how much can i/my family claim from the insurance?" then I WOULD tell him that I didn't know the answer.
It's just something that I never asked anyone when I learnt to fly, and to me it's a strange question. Yes, I was aware of my personal risks when I started flying, and I have since lost a few buddies in this game. But I fly because I love it - and not for the annoying lifestyle.
And I WOULD seriously check the customer out. There is a small chance that one person may try to kill himself in my aircraft because:
1. He is suicidal
2. He is terminally ill
3. He is in huge debt
4. He might want to plow into the Sydney Harbour Bridge during rush hour.
Check it out, these things do happen.
By the way, I'm not insinuating that Mr i-can-fly has any of these problems.