Crosswind competency before or after the first solo - your comments.
Thread Starter
Crosswind competency before or after the first solo - your comments.
Food for thought. Teenage student goes with parents to careers seminar at school at which flying school reps give their speil on learning to fly and being an airline pilot. Student eventually decides to give it a go and starts flying lessons. Due financial constraints (his parents are battlers) he only flies ten lessons in nine months with his log book showing five different grade three instructors. Books in for a lesson of circuits at Point Cook which requires two hours faxed notice of arrival in Point Cook circuit.
On arrival to fly, student discovers his instructor has omitted to fax Point Cook so rather than cancel the session, the instructor says no problem, we will fly to Moorabbin and teach you crosswind circuits and landings. Cost of exercise in region of $320 for trip to and from MB.
Whether or not this is a true story or not is immaterial. It may or may not have actually happened. Let's leave it at that.
The CASA Flight Instructor's Manual reveals that crosswind instruction is scheduled after first solo not before. This is because experience dictates ab-initio pre-solo circuits should be done into wind for ease of learning and advanced circuits including crosswind work is left until the student gains further solo experience and thus more confidence.
The flying school syllabus however apparently shows crosswind landings must be taught to a competent standard before first solo which in this theoretical case is what happened to the student although he seemed to have little idea of the mechanics of flying crosswind circuits and landings after the event. After all, would you expect a student to handle crosswinds competently with less than 12 hours in the log book? And yet not considered competent for first solo in good weather conditions?
The question arises of the wisdom/commonsense aspect of disregard of a long standing CASA documentary advice that crosswind landings should be scheduled after first solo and not before.
While it is understandable that new instructors wish to hour build in order to earn money - especially as they probably are only paid for hours flown rather than weekly wages, it is important they consider the student's side of things and not fly for the sake of flying. It is encumbent on CFI's to closely observe the conduct of every junior instructor who by legislation also requires close CFI supervision.
The common habit of allowing junior instructors to grab at the first student coming through the door of the flying school without first being allotted that student by the CFI, often leads to hours being racked up by the student that are not necessarily in his best interests and worse still, he may not even have ever flown with the CFI at any stage of his time with that flying school. Junior instructors must never allow their own enthusiasm for flying and hours building to disadvantage their students who rely on the integrity of their instructor and the CFI, to avoid unecessary flying training costs.
Unfortunately there is no shortage of anecdotal evidence from students that ripping off the student is not uncommon.
On arrival to fly, student discovers his instructor has omitted to fax Point Cook so rather than cancel the session, the instructor says no problem, we will fly to Moorabbin and teach you crosswind circuits and landings. Cost of exercise in region of $320 for trip to and from MB.
Whether or not this is a true story or not is immaterial. It may or may not have actually happened. Let's leave it at that.
The CASA Flight Instructor's Manual reveals that crosswind instruction is scheduled after first solo not before. This is because experience dictates ab-initio pre-solo circuits should be done into wind for ease of learning and advanced circuits including crosswind work is left until the student gains further solo experience and thus more confidence.
The flying school syllabus however apparently shows crosswind landings must be taught to a competent standard before first solo which in this theoretical case is what happened to the student although he seemed to have little idea of the mechanics of flying crosswind circuits and landings after the event. After all, would you expect a student to handle crosswinds competently with less than 12 hours in the log book? And yet not considered competent for first solo in good weather conditions?
The question arises of the wisdom/commonsense aspect of disregard of a long standing CASA documentary advice that crosswind landings should be scheduled after first solo and not before.
While it is understandable that new instructors wish to hour build in order to earn money - especially as they probably are only paid for hours flown rather than weekly wages, it is important they consider the student's side of things and not fly for the sake of flying. It is encumbent on CFI's to closely observe the conduct of every junior instructor who by legislation also requires close CFI supervision.
The common habit of allowing junior instructors to grab at the first student coming through the door of the flying school without first being allotted that student by the CFI, often leads to hours being racked up by the student that are not necessarily in his best interests and worse still, he may not even have ever flown with the CFI at any stage of his time with that flying school. Junior instructors must never allow their own enthusiasm for flying and hours building to disadvantage their students who rely on the integrity of their instructor and the CFI, to avoid unecessary flying training costs.
Unfortunately there is no shortage of anecdotal evidence from students that ripping off the student is not uncommon.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
personal opinion
In some ways it depends on the prevailing conditions. Is the student likely to experience crosswind BEFORE he gets to the scheduled lesson?
I'm not sure what Oz conditions are like, but I would encourage the handling skills of a cross-wind landing. In the many months that he has learned over - is there a greater chance of hitting a cross-wind?
However, if a student is learning over a short space of time with stable wind direction straight down the runway, then the chance of hitting a cross-wind on or near to first solo are smaller, and the lesson can be put into the "usual" place.
I would chat to the Big Chief and folllow his advice, after all, that's what the Big Chief is there for eh?
Safe Flying,
ECT?
I'm not sure what Oz conditions are like, but I would encourage the handling skills of a cross-wind landing. In the many months that he has learned over - is there a greater chance of hitting a cross-wind?
However, if a student is learning over a short space of time with stable wind direction straight down the runway, then the chance of hitting a cross-wind on or near to first solo are smaller, and the lesson can be put into the "usual" place.
I would chat to the Big Chief and folllow his advice, after all, that's what the Big Chief is there for eh?
Safe Flying,
ECT?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
not being an instructor, i cant comment from that perspective, but i can comment from the student side as we have all been there!
it would be very rare for a student to experience absolutely no degree of crosswind in the ~10 lessons before going solo.
there is a difference between learning circuits, and learning crosswind circuits- you might not do the latter before your solo, but you will cop some beforehand and should be taught how to deal with it.
afterall, i doubt the instructor would send a student solo when theres a crosswind above what they have seen the student competent with at their current stage.
from memory, i didnt do any "crosswind circuits" before my solo, but i did have varying degrees of crosswind in the initial training and was taught how to deal with it. it is a judgement and common sense issue in my mind.
being taught "crosswind circuits" is going out intentionally on a day with near max-demonstrated crosswind to become 'fully' competent, not just partially like you would be before pre solo.
i would cringe at the thought of instructors coming back from the training area or during a session of circuits when the wind is shifting slightly across the runway and saying "no, its not down the runway so i cannot let you land"
sometimes it is better to get partially thrown into the deep end.
it would be very rare for a student to experience absolutely no degree of crosswind in the ~10 lessons before going solo.
there is a difference between learning circuits, and learning crosswind circuits- you might not do the latter before your solo, but you will cop some beforehand and should be taught how to deal with it.
afterall, i doubt the instructor would send a student solo when theres a crosswind above what they have seen the student competent with at their current stage.
from memory, i didnt do any "crosswind circuits" before my solo, but i did have varying degrees of crosswind in the initial training and was taught how to deal with it. it is a judgement and common sense issue in my mind.
being taught "crosswind circuits" is going out intentionally on a day with near max-demonstrated crosswind to become 'fully' competent, not just partially like you would be before pre solo.
i would cringe at the thought of instructors coming back from the training area or during a session of circuits when the wind is shifting slightly across the runway and saying "no, its not down the runway so i cannot let you land"
sometimes it is better to get partially thrown into the deep end.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: sYDNEY
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a bit of a grey area sometimes but....
In my experience as an instructor, the sessions leading up to the first solo are a delicate time. Each session should slowly build upon the lessons learnt in the previous. therefore, shooting of to do crosswinds, PFL, Inst flight etc just upsets that balance and on return to the circuits, needs some remedial work to get back to the standard they were at. Usually seen as a way of flying schools getting a hour of revenue they might have lost otherwise.
However, students vary and an instructor may be able to make productive time of the session on some occasions.
Training programs have been in place for a long time and don't have crosswinds etc before the first solo. Best not to mess with that. If you feel your school is just flying for they're profits and not your learning...vote with your feet.
In my experience as an instructor, the sessions leading up to the first solo are a delicate time. Each session should slowly build upon the lessons learnt in the previous. therefore, shooting of to do crosswinds, PFL, Inst flight etc just upsets that balance and on return to the circuits, needs some remedial work to get back to the standard they were at. Usually seen as a way of flying schools getting a hour of revenue they might have lost otherwise.
However, students vary and an instructor may be able to make productive time of the session on some occasions.
Training programs have been in place for a long time and don't have crosswinds etc before the first solo. Best not to mess with that. If you feel your school is just flying for they're profits and not your learning...vote with your feet.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the point Centaurus was alluding to was the ethics of an instructor that succumbs to the temptation of rationalising that any flying hour is valuable experience to a new student regardless of the sequence to be taught. The fact that the sequence may be inappropriate for the student's general progress at the time, is disregarded by the instructor who may be tremendously enthusiastic to get airborne and earn a buck for the day. The instructor may think why waste the availibility of an instructor and an aircraft - after all the money is not coming out of his pocket...
This is especially so when the training field is some distance from the home aerodrome such as for example Essendon in Melbourne and Baccus Marsh/ Point Cook/ Moorabbin - all of which costs additional flight time and more hard earned parent's dollars. The instructor still gets paid for the travel time even though relevant dual instruction may not really take place until the circuit is joined and the aim of the excercise is achieved.
There are few new flying instructors who turn up to fly and who would not be disappointed if they hang around all day and not get a student. In any case crosswind landings are a challenge that rarely presents itself and from the instructors point of view are good experience especially if he gets to demonstrate one. All the time the VDO ticks over at over $4 a minute out of the pocket of the student.
Few instructors will deliberately send off a ab-initio student pilot on his first solo with any sort of crosswind. If he pranged, the lawyers would crucify the instructor for recklessness and other awful crimes against humanity. CASA would also look hard at the CFI for lack of supervision. I have observed lack of supervision used as a telling weapon against CFI and chief pilots at Coroners Inquiries.
That being so, what is the point of teaching competency at crosswind take off and landings when these conditions would prevent a student being sent on first solo, anyway. First learn to crawl before you learn to walk, and in our context this means first be shepherded to a safe first solo into wind before the confusion of crossed controls in crosswind landings. To me this is straight forward airmanship mixed with commonsense. Others obviously have different agendas which include making a living by the flying hour flown.
This is especially so when the training field is some distance from the home aerodrome such as for example Essendon in Melbourne and Baccus Marsh/ Point Cook/ Moorabbin - all of which costs additional flight time and more hard earned parent's dollars. The instructor still gets paid for the travel time even though relevant dual instruction may not really take place until the circuit is joined and the aim of the excercise is achieved.
There are few new flying instructors who turn up to fly and who would not be disappointed if they hang around all day and not get a student. In any case crosswind landings are a challenge that rarely presents itself and from the instructors point of view are good experience especially if he gets to demonstrate one. All the time the VDO ticks over at over $4 a minute out of the pocket of the student.
Few instructors will deliberately send off a ab-initio student pilot on his first solo with any sort of crosswind. If he pranged, the lawyers would crucify the instructor for recklessness and other awful crimes against humanity. CASA would also look hard at the CFI for lack of supervision. I have observed lack of supervision used as a telling weapon against CFI and chief pilots at Coroners Inquiries.
That being so, what is the point of teaching competency at crosswind take off and landings when these conditions would prevent a student being sent on first solo, anyway. First learn to crawl before you learn to walk, and in our context this means first be shepherded to a safe first solo into wind before the confusion of crossed controls in crosswind landings. To me this is straight forward airmanship mixed with commonsense. Others obviously have different agendas which include making a living by the flying hour flown.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: -28.1494 / 151.943
Age: 68
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From our CFI's Anecdotal memories after some 60+ years of flying, from starting in an instructional capacity teaching students to fly Mustangs in 1946 to currently instructing in a Jabiru (yes he is that old) "The problem of training students to handle crosswind landings only occurs after you have informed same of the fact that there is a crosswind. In previous landings by same student performed in a crosswind, said landings were executed with aplomb" .... Food for thought there!
cheers
A172
cheers
A172
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mayday???
One of only two or three mayday calls I have heard was from a young student in a warrior, who got some turbulence and crosswind on short final. I don't know what he thought a mayday call would do. He should have been concentrating on flying the aircraft. He pranged it, and discontinued his flying training. (yes, he survived ok)
Something was not right there.
Something was not right there.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Deep South
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with you A172!!
On one of my first circuit sessions I remember I was on final and the instructor said to me "well look at that, your already doing crosswind technique and I haven't even briefed you yet". I was thinking, what the hell is he talkign about? To me I was just unhappy that the nose pointing off to the side so I lined it up with the centreline, then was even more fired up as that C152 started drifting off to the other side, better use some aileron. Once I had the crosswind brief and started thinking about it, the landings have never been the same. Thats my story why my landings are so bad and I'm sticking to it
.
On one of my first circuit sessions I remember I was on final and the instructor said to me "well look at that, your already doing crosswind technique and I haven't even briefed you yet". I was thinking, what the hell is he talkign about? To me I was just unhappy that the nose pointing off to the side so I lined it up with the centreline, then was even more fired up as that C152 started drifting off to the other side, better use some aileron. Once I had the crosswind brief and started thinking about it, the landings have never been the same. Thats my story why my landings are so bad and I'm sticking to it
.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Aust
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my experience from instructing the average student can handle up to around 10 kts of crosswind doing normal landings. The moment you teach the correct technique, it all goes out the window
A good instructor will know how much crosswind a student can handle before he sends them 1st solo, and a considerate instructor will try and book a first solo 'pre-flt' for first thing in the morning if the field is known to have increased wind throughout the day (eg. sea breeze).
As for Centaurus question, I have no personal opinion on teaching crosswind before or after pre-solo. I do have a very strong opinion on instructors taking a student out because it's "good practice". Unfortunately, thats the culture you breed when you have young people struggling to pay rent because the weather has been ****e or lack of students hence the instructor does not get paid that week
. However if the training school syllabus (which needs to be approved by CASA), says crosswind training prior to first solo, well then that is what it has to be.Mono
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Usually Australia
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ab-initio flying training is very much ‘under supervision’ through to the completion of the three required hours of solo experience. Therefore any good CFI will monitor both the low-time instructors and the students during those early periods, certainly from revision onwards.
I would have no problems with low-time instructors teaching the first two or three hours of circuits but the student should then be passed on to a Grade 2 or higher for solo check and first solo.
Formal crosswinds should not be taught until advanced circuit training. For early training choose the conditions (early morning) and allow the student to consolidate. Observe the students’ solo periods (those first three hours) from the edge of the runway and provide feedback to the student on how each stage of the each circuit was flown. To fly an early student in crosswinds is just value-adding … to the school coffers or the instructors log book.
I would have no problems with low-time instructors teaching the first two or three hours of circuits but the student should then be passed on to a Grade 2 or higher for solo check and first solo.
Formal crosswinds should not be taught until advanced circuit training. For early training choose the conditions (early morning) and allow the student to consolidate. Observe the students’ solo periods (those first three hours) from the edge of the runway and provide feedback to the student on how each stage of the each circuit was flown. To fly an early student in crosswinds is just value-adding … to the school coffers or the instructors log book.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Central Aust
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think crosswind techniques should be taught before first solo.
Why?
I think back to my first few solo circuit sessions. Wind was nil at the time of being sent out, and about 15 minutes into the solo circuits the wind was around about a 10kt crosswind. I hit the dirt on a wide bitty runway on the following 4 curcuits - each time convincing myself that the next T&G would be better!
The 4th crosswind landing was supposed to be a touch and go but the landing was that bad it spooked me and I decided not to persist - and for the life of me I couldn't work out what I was doing wrong.
Now - bare in mind at the time many years ago at around 15 hours experience - I wasn't even sure what a crosswind landing was, nor had I even been given theoretical instruction!!
Had I have stacked it that day my career would have been over before it started (and perhaps the instructor's), and had I have been in a Cessna I might have been in a bit more grief!
Why?
I think back to my first few solo circuit sessions. Wind was nil at the time of being sent out, and about 15 minutes into the solo circuits the wind was around about a 10kt crosswind. I hit the dirt on a wide bitty runway on the following 4 curcuits - each time convincing myself that the next T&G would be better!
The 4th crosswind landing was supposed to be a touch and go but the landing was that bad it spooked me and I decided not to persist - and for the life of me I couldn't work out what I was doing wrong.
Now - bare in mind at the time many years ago at around 15 hours experience - I wasn't even sure what a crosswind landing was, nor had I even been given theoretical instruction!!
Had I have stacked it that day my career would have been over before it started (and perhaps the instructor's), and had I have been in a Cessna I might have been in a bit more grief!
Very impt to have some x/w skills prior to 1st solo.
Most JT schools used to have 5-7 kts x/w 'ability' before solo
CASA Instructors Manual, 12-4, appears to say that x/w is part of what you teach pre-solo, and thats what I've always done.
On another pprune thread, there's an interesting discussion about using rudder during the flare - and that's worth a read. See Flight Instructors & Examiners - it's still on p1.
happy days,
Most JT schools used to have 5-7 kts x/w 'ability' before solo
CASA Instructors Manual, 12-4, appears to say that x/w is part of what you teach pre-solo, and thats what I've always done.
On another pprune thread, there's an interesting discussion about using rudder during the flare - and that's worth a read. See Flight Instructors & Examiners - it's still on p1.
happy days,
crosswind before first solo
I can only report from my own observations, but i believe it extremely rare that any instructor would place a student into an aircraft primarily motivated by revenue, or hour building. If that situation did ever occur, the training organisation management should bear a large portion of the responsibility for creating such a poor learning environment for their students. If that situation does occur where the planned lesson is not going to proceed, the instructor should however consider an alternative. That alternative could well be one hour on the ground going through radio failure procedures, going through the poh with the instructor, re visiting weight and balance, fuel calculations, etc.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, China
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
glenb.
I would like to believe that but there is no shortage of anecdotal evidence that the practice is more common than you know about.
Poteroo.
The CASA manual you refer to may be a draft edition only that was sent to selected operators for their comment. It has no authority and it is most surprising your flying school chooses to use its contents which were purely suggestions as a starting point. Already a host of amendments to that publication you referred to have been forwarded to CASA. The revised Flight Instructors Manual revision is still undergoing work on it by CASA and has been for the past two years. Various project officers were assigned to its publication, but so many staff changes have taken place that final publication is some months away.
Meanwhile the CASA Publication DA 2342 - Rev5/88 Flight Instructors Manual is a good read and contains none of the myths and gimmicks that have unfortunately crept into the industry. Among other things it includes introduction to crosswind landings as an exercise to be conducted several periods after first solo. And that is how it has been since flying training in the 1940 era if only because there is no valid reason to change that policy.
but i believe it extremely rare that any instructor would place a student into an aircraft primarily motivated by revenue, or hour building. If that situation did ever occur, the training
Poteroo.
The CASA manual you refer to may be a draft edition only that was sent to selected operators for their comment. It has no authority and it is most surprising your flying school chooses to use its contents which were purely suggestions as a starting point. Already a host of amendments to that publication you referred to have been forwarded to CASA. The revised Flight Instructors Manual revision is still undergoing work on it by CASA and has been for the past two years. Various project officers were assigned to its publication, but so many staff changes have taken place that final publication is some months away.
Meanwhile the CASA Publication DA 2342 - Rev5/88 Flight Instructors Manual is a good read and contains none of the myths and gimmicks that have unfortunately crept into the industry. Among other things it includes introduction to crosswind landings as an exercise to be conducted several periods after first solo. And that is how it has been since flying training in the 1940 era if only because there is no valid reason to change that policy.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Xwind before first solo?
I will be doing my first solo next weekend, and crosswind is one thing that does concern me. Oh, and engine failure of course!
I have experience in light crosswinds that I appear to be able to handle now but nothing too severe, so I hope the weather stays kind during my single circuit when the FI bales out and I'm sent up on my own!
I will be doing my first solo next weekend, and crosswind is one thing that does concern me. Oh, and engine failure of course!
I have experience in light crosswinds that I appear to be able to handle now but nothing too severe, so I hope the weather stays kind during my single circuit when the FI bales out and I'm sent up on my own!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Auckland
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting.
See I wouldn't teach crosswind landings, as first solo should be conducted in ideal conditions with nil wind.
I believe that you have to reduce the variables, a student at that stage is going to be a bit nervous as the guy above admitted so why add the pressure at that stage?
To that end I would also ensure the minimum amount of traffic by getting out early.
It's a funny thing and I realise that everyone has an opinion however, I'm really careful exactly when I send guys up for their first tailwheel solo as it’s my aircraft.
I'd rather cancel if the weather is going to show signs of dodgy winds.
See I wouldn't teach crosswind landings, as first solo should be conducted in ideal conditions with nil wind.
I believe that you have to reduce the variables, a student at that stage is going to be a bit nervous as the guy above admitted so why add the pressure at that stage?
To that end I would also ensure the minimum amount of traffic by getting out early.
It's a funny thing and I realise that everyone has an opinion however, I'm really careful exactly when I send guys up for their first tailwheel solo as it’s my aircraft.
I'd rather cancel if the weather is going to show signs of dodgy winds.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bit of wind....
Sorry to hijack thread but I'm still buzzing after completing my first solo yesterday. 
Got out nice and early to do it and it all went fine. Well, sort of! My first two touch-and-gos turned into go-rounds... and after that I doubted if the session was going to end with a solo at all, but my performance improved after that.
I had absolutely perfect conditions the previous morning and my FI told me to go solo then but I declined - only because the family weren't there to watch! (They started me flying as a present, so thought it was only fair they should witness the occasion). I was beginning to wonder yesterday if declining the opportunity the previous morning was a good one after all!
Anyway, in the end all went well. Conditions were a little weird on my solo; hardly any wind on ground but pretty blowy up there in the circuit. Obviously FI made sure I could cope before making me venture out alone.
I'm as happy for him as I am for me because this was his first solo send-off (just gained Grade 2)....good on him!!! And thankfully there was no incident on landing, so he's still in with a job!
For anyone else who's reading this who is soon to go solo, stay focused, do everything as you did before (talking out loud through all your tasks like you may do with your FI proves to be very calming), try to forget he's not sitting alongside you...but not everything else you're supposed to do.
It's a huge kick and once you're on crosswind, it's not as scary as you'd think!
Happy Soloing!
Got out nice and early to do it and it all went fine. Well, sort of! My first two touch-and-gos turned into go-rounds... and after that I doubted if the session was going to end with a solo at all, but my performance improved after that.
I had absolutely perfect conditions the previous morning and my FI told me to go solo then but I declined - only because the family weren't there to watch! (They started me flying as a present, so thought it was only fair they should witness the occasion). I was beginning to wonder yesterday if declining the opportunity the previous morning was a good one after all!
Anyway, in the end all went well. Conditions were a little weird on my solo; hardly any wind on ground but pretty blowy up there in the circuit. Obviously FI made sure I could cope before making me venture out alone.
I'm as happy for him as I am for me because this was his first solo send-off (just gained Grade 2)....good on him!!! And thankfully there was no incident on landing, so he's still in with a job!
For anyone else who's reading this who is soon to go solo, stay focused, do everything as you did before (talking out loud through all your tasks like you may do with your FI proves to be very calming), try to forget he's not sitting alongside you...but not everything else you're supposed to do.
It's a huge kick and once you're on crosswind, it's not as scary as you'd think!
Happy Soloing!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ist solo
echo-ing wombat's words - fantastic effort, keep it up
welcome to the big world of "joy n' frustration"...!!!!!!!
I'm the first to admit that it is a constant challenge to
make all landingsl better than the one before.
Welcome to the not so secret brotherhood of "Oh s#@t
I got away with another one...!!
the skies big and blue - enjoy
NNB 
welcome to the big world of "joy n' frustration"...!!!!!!!
I'm the first to admit that it is a constant challenge to
make all landingsl better than the one before.
Welcome to the not so secret brotherhood of "Oh s#@t
I got away with another one...!!
the skies big and blue - enjoy
NNB