light Plane Down ARCHERFIELD
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Look out the window
A rule that EVERYONE should follow is
WHEN YOU SEE A RUNWAY AHEAD--CHECK WHEELS
Checklists do not always work, and it is possible to forget the whole pre landing checklist altogether!!!
It makes sense to have something totally separate from the normal checklist to trigger a gear check. And use it regardless of what type of aeroplane you are flying at the time. Make it a habit. And that habit will save you on the day when you are tired, the weather is bad, traffic is high, and the tower operator is cranky. Habits are powerful, and automatic.
And the man who has just landed wheels up does not need anyone to tell him. He is probably totally devastated, and considering his future in aviation, thoroughly disgusted with himself.
The fact is, this painful experience has probably made him a better pilot. He now knows that it CAN happen to him, if he lets it.
Criticism is inappropriate, and un necessary.
WHEN YOU SEE A RUNWAY AHEAD--CHECK WHEELS
Checklists do not always work, and it is possible to forget the whole pre landing checklist altogether!!!
It makes sense to have something totally separate from the normal checklist to trigger a gear check. And use it regardless of what type of aeroplane you are flying at the time. Make it a habit. And that habit will save you on the day when you are tired, the weather is bad, traffic is high, and the tower operator is cranky. Habits are powerful, and automatic.
And the man who has just landed wheels up does not need anyone to tell him. He is probably totally devastated, and considering his future in aviation, thoroughly disgusted with himself.
The fact is, this painful experience has probably made him a better pilot. He now knows that it CAN happen to him, if he lets it.
Criticism is inappropriate, and un necessary.
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I'm with Rat**** here.
The glibness of 'those who have and those who will' makes for an easy and oft repeated throwaway line......but it does NOT stand up to logical scrutiny.
There are plenty of pilots who never have, and have retired from flying, never having done.....ergo the failure of the popular fallacy.
Granted that human error can/does occur (ref. inthefluffystuff). That's why we use INhuman checklists. When was the last time you saw an RPT land gear-up from pilot error?
If GA private/single pilots (like me) adhere, as RS suggests, to RIGID and REPEATED checklists (be they mental or written), this sort of insurance-inflating, reputation-damaging and media-fodder incidence CAN be much reduced if not avoided entirely.
It's a sad fact (and one that I'm becoming increasingly aware of) that a number of GA pilots are slack/lazy/arrogant in the belief that THEY (who, MOI?) are beyond making errors.......These are the ones who indeed are careless enough to make mistakes.
"Red leader to Gold Leader.......STAY ON TARGET"..............
The glibness of 'those who have and those who will' makes for an easy and oft repeated throwaway line......but it does NOT stand up to logical scrutiny.
There are plenty of pilots who never have, and have retired from flying, never having done.....ergo the failure of the popular fallacy.
Granted that human error can/does occur (ref. inthefluffystuff). That's why we use INhuman checklists. When was the last time you saw an RPT land gear-up from pilot error?
If GA private/single pilots (like me) adhere, as RS suggests, to RIGID and REPEATED checklists (be they mental or written), this sort of insurance-inflating, reputation-damaging and media-fodder incidence CAN be much reduced if not avoided entirely.
It's a sad fact (and one that I'm becoming increasingly aware of) that a number of GA pilots are slack/lazy/arrogant in the belief that THEY (who, MOI?) are beyond making errors.......These are the ones who indeed are careless enough to make mistakes.
"Red leader to Gold Leader.......STAY ON TARGET"..............
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Bushy - I disagree. Criticism is both appropriate and necessary if we are to learn from the mistakes of others.
Every pilot (particularly the inexperienced) should look at this accident and clarify in their mind what went wrong - and determine what they are going to do to ensure that they do not make the same mistake(s).
1) Either burn simple straight forward downwind and finals check lists into your brain or similar trigger points for written check lists.
I like your "if you see a runway ahead - check wheels" as a final safety net.
2) Get it clear in your mind - "if I strike a prop on the runway - I WILL NOT TRY TO GO AROUND" (I know of 2 other aircraft destroyed this way - fortunately no fatalities)
I have done this with every accident I have read about in the last 35 years - and it has kept me safe through a broad range of flying experiences in two countries, on 34 aircraft types.
It is a lot easier to make decisions when under stress if you have worked through the senario in your mind, in the comfort and safety of your lounge.
I have a whole bunch of them filed away in the back of my head, ready to be quickly pulled up if required.
Fortunately I have only had to trot a few out:
Some examples
1) Door pops open with a bang and lots of noise just after take-off in a Baron - THINK "OH SH*T" and then FLY THE AEROPLANE for a normal circuit and landing
2) Moonie makes strange banging noise after take-off but flies OK - THINK "WHAT THE F*CK IS THAT" and then FLY THE AEROPLANE AROUND FOR CIRCUIT AND LANDING - and retrieve the end of the seatbelt from outside the door
3) EFATO on a loaded C402 - THINK "OH SH*T" then DO THE DRILLS and CLIMB OUT ON ONE ENGINE TO A SAFE HEIGHT before turning back
4) After second missed approach into YBPN at night - think "OK THAT WAS FUN AND NOW I"M OFF TO TOWNSVILLE"
5) Fuel guages getting close to empty in a C210 although you are sure you had enough fuel on departure - THINK "WHAT THE F*CK" and LAND ASAP ON THE SAFEST LOOKING BIT OF DIRT AVAILABLE - in this case a road. Fuel was pissing out from under the aeroplane from a loose fuel line.
Similar incidents to all of the above have resulted in fatalities!
R
Every pilot (particularly the inexperienced) should look at this accident and clarify in their mind what went wrong - and determine what they are going to do to ensure that they do not make the same mistake(s).
1) Either burn simple straight forward downwind and finals check lists into your brain or similar trigger points for written check lists.
I like your "if you see a runway ahead - check wheels" as a final safety net.
2) Get it clear in your mind - "if I strike a prop on the runway - I WILL NOT TRY TO GO AROUND" (I know of 2 other aircraft destroyed this way - fortunately no fatalities)
I have done this with every accident I have read about in the last 35 years - and it has kept me safe through a broad range of flying experiences in two countries, on 34 aircraft types.
It is a lot easier to make decisions when under stress if you have worked through the senario in your mind, in the comfort and safety of your lounge.
I have a whole bunch of them filed away in the back of my head, ready to be quickly pulled up if required.
Fortunately I have only had to trot a few out:
Some examples
1) Door pops open with a bang and lots of noise just after take-off in a Baron - THINK "OH SH*T" and then FLY THE AEROPLANE for a normal circuit and landing
2) Moonie makes strange banging noise after take-off but flies OK - THINK "WHAT THE F*CK IS THAT" and then FLY THE AEROPLANE AROUND FOR CIRCUIT AND LANDING - and retrieve the end of the seatbelt from outside the door
3) EFATO on a loaded C402 - THINK "OH SH*T" then DO THE DRILLS and CLIMB OUT ON ONE ENGINE TO A SAFE HEIGHT before turning back
4) After second missed approach into YBPN at night - think "OK THAT WAS FUN AND NOW I"M OFF TO TOWNSVILLE"
5) Fuel guages getting close to empty in a C210 although you are sure you had enough fuel on departure - THINK "WHAT THE F*CK" and LAND ASAP ON THE SAFEST LOOKING BIT OF DIRT AVAILABLE - in this case a road. Fuel was pissing out from under the aeroplane from a loose fuel line.
Similar incidents to all of the above have resulted in fatalities!
R
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Described on the tele as an "expert piece of flying"!
Yeah, right!
1) Almost lands with wheels retracted
2) Reduces the prop diameter by >50% on the runway
3) Tries to take off again
4) Crashes into a tree
Expert piece of flying!!!!!
Given that the gear does not retract fully in the Yak 52, I suspect substantially less damage would have been done by leaving the throttle closed following the prop strike!
R
Yeah, right!
1) Almost lands with wheels retracted
2) Reduces the prop diameter by >50% on the runway
3) Tries to take off again
4) Crashes into a tree
Expert piece of flying!!!!!
Given that the gear does not retract fully in the Yak 52, I suspect substantially less damage would have been done by leaving the throttle closed following the prop strike!
R
seems to have been some procedure failure here
having flown with Cam in this Yak, its a sad end to a beautiful machine,however good to see the crash didn't hurt anyone physically,
financially probably all of us.
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RS.
My point being that there is no need to criticise in this instance. There is nothing served by standing on the sidelines and pointing fingers about for self gratification that you have not done so. I bet the pilot in this instance is feeling as low as possible and doesnt need anyone else to comment.
You have confused criticism with learning. Learn from his mistake, grow from it, but dont put the boot in when he is on the ground.
These 3 sound like very poor airmanship for not doing your checks properly.
1) Mate, how could you not secure the door properly. Its in pre take off checks.
2) I have never known anyone to not check that the seatbelts are not in the aircraft..pretty basic mistake there...
5) Did you not check fuel enroute and have a concern before you got to critical level? What a mistake!
I have learnt from your mistakes. Thank you.
Dog
My point being that there is no need to criticise in this instance. There is nothing served by standing on the sidelines and pointing fingers about for self gratification that you have not done so. I bet the pilot in this instance is feeling as low as possible and doesnt need anyone else to comment.
You have confused criticism with learning. Learn from his mistake, grow from it, but dont put the boot in when he is on the ground.
1) Door pops open with a bang and lots of noise just after take-off in a Baron - THINK "OH SH*T" and then FLY THE AEROPLANE for a normal circuit and landing
2) Moonie makes strange banging noise after take-off but flies OK - THINK "WHAT THE F*CK IS THAT" and then FLY THE AEROPLANE AROUND FOR CIRCUIT AND LANDING - and retrieve the end of the seatbelt from outside the door
5) Fuel guages getting close to empty in a C210 although you are sure you had enough fuel on departure - THINK "WHAT THE F*CK" and LAND ASAP ON THE SAFEST LOOKING BIT OF DIRT AVAILABLE - in this case a road. Fuel was pissing out from under the aeroplane from a loose fuel line.
2) Moonie makes strange banging noise after take-off but flies OK - THINK "WHAT THE F*CK IS THAT" and then FLY THE AEROPLANE AROUND FOR CIRCUIT AND LANDING - and retrieve the end of the seatbelt from outside the door
5) Fuel guages getting close to empty in a C210 although you are sure you had enough fuel on departure - THINK "WHAT THE F*CK" and LAND ASAP ON THE SAFEST LOOKING BIT OF DIRT AVAILABLE - in this case a road. Fuel was pissing out from under the aeroplane from a loose fuel line.
1) Mate, how could you not secure the door properly. Its in pre take off checks.
2) I have never known anyone to not check that the seatbelts are not in the aircraft..pretty basic mistake there...
5) Did you not check fuel enroute and have a concern before you got to critical level? What a mistake!
I have learnt from your mistakes. Thank you.
Dog
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Rich, Fine and Green - Cowl flaps
Anyway you can bet that opening cowl flaps before landing is not in any manufacturer´s POH!
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These 3 sound like very poor airmanship for not doing your checks properly.
1) Mate, how could you not secure the door properly. Its in pre take off checks.
2) I have never known anyone to not check that the seatbelts are not in the aircraft..pretty basic mistake there...
5) Did you not check fuel enroute and have a concern before you got to critical level? What a mistake!
1) Mate, how could you not secure the door properly. Its in pre take off checks.
2) I have never known anyone to not check that the seatbelts are not in the aircraft..pretty basic mistake there...
5) Did you not check fuel enroute and have a concern before you got to critical level? What a mistake!
1) Mate, how could you not secure the door properly. Its in pre take off checks
Case of 2 pilots/no pilot - the other guy shut the door and it seemed OK when I checked it pre-takeoff. I wonder how many high time Bonanza/Baron pilots in here have had a door pop?
2) I have never known anyone to not check that the seatbelts are not in the aircraft..pretty basic mistake there...
Yeah right - you always reach over your front seat pax to check where the loose end of the seat belt is. I only do it when she is a good looker!
5) Did you not check fuel enroute and have a concern before you got to critical level? What a mistake!
and maybe it depends where you are on your flight plan when the leak starts - durrr!
R
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What on earth has cowl flaps got to do with final approach? And please don´t offer the feeble excuse that is just in case you may have to go-around and the engine will overheat like crazy seconds after going around...
Anyway you can bet that opening cowl flaps before landing is not in any manufacturer´s POH!
Anyway you can bet that opening cowl flaps before landing is not in any manufacturer´s POH!
You can't win in this forum, but you will note that I didn't say to do anything with the cowl flaps!
Personally I leave them closed and pick them up in a climb check.
R
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Checklists
I once attended a lecture given by an aviation psychologist (psychiatarist?) from the english aviation research organisation at Farnborough. It was most interesting. One story he told was about a phantom crew who were flying at night and had an electrical failure. The pilot fumbled around in the dark to activate the emergency power system, and ended up putting the flaps down instead. The flaps were damaged, and he had much difficulty controlling the aeroplane, but did manage to get it back to base. They had it almost on the ground but were losing control, so went to full power, with afterburners to go around, but it was still out of control so they used their bang seats, leaving the aeroplane with full power, and no-one in it. They had to do a lot of rebuilding after that.
Back to the subject.
He also told us about his investigations of gear up landings. He said that in EVERY case the crew went through the checklist, and called "gear down three greens". After landing, one captain said " there is something wrong with the brakes". Another looked out the window and remarked about how tall the fireman was.
Strange things happen when people are under stress.
Checklists can be good, or they can be a danger, in single pilot aeroplanes. I remember having a great big long checklist ("to do list") that had you winding the checklist on short final, if you did it the way you were supposed to. Very soon people were commencing that part of the checklist much sooner and getting it completed sooner. It was eventually changed. Checklists can very easily get far too complicated and become a hindrance, rather than a safety aid. Too often they are there to protect people who are not in the aeroplane.
Having said that, I acknowledge that good checklists work well (but are not infallible) and are an essential part of aviation. They should be a simple, short list of essential items. And as a backup, pilots should cultivate habits that are triggered by something other than the checklist. (like "check wheels when you see a runway in front") Habits are automatic.
He who is without sin can cast the first stone. We should study and learn from accidents and incidents. The "punishing of the offender" has already been well and truly done. He now needs support.
Back to the subject.
He also told us about his investigations of gear up landings. He said that in EVERY case the crew went through the checklist, and called "gear down three greens". After landing, one captain said " there is something wrong with the brakes". Another looked out the window and remarked about how tall the fireman was.
Strange things happen when people are under stress.
Checklists can be good, or they can be a danger, in single pilot aeroplanes. I remember having a great big long checklist ("to do list") that had you winding the checklist on short final, if you did it the way you were supposed to. Very soon people were commencing that part of the checklist much sooner and getting it completed sooner. It was eventually changed. Checklists can very easily get far too complicated and become a hindrance, rather than a safety aid. Too often they are there to protect people who are not in the aeroplane.
Having said that, I acknowledge that good checklists work well (but are not infallible) and are an essential part of aviation. They should be a simple, short list of essential items. And as a backup, pilots should cultivate habits that are triggered by something other than the checklist. (like "check wheels when you see a runway in front") Habits are automatic.
He who is without sin can cast the first stone. We should study and learn from accidents and incidents. The "punishing of the offender" has already been well and truly done. He now needs support.
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If you want to read a humbling story of "How I Nearly Landed Gear Up - (in a 747)" see
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/188536-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/188536-1.html
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and having f*cked up and run your prop down the runway - I think trying to climb out is really, really DUMB!
His first inkling that something was wrong was when he felt a little lower then normal, then as he 'went around' he heard the ticks of the props on the runway. He held for 40 mins waiting for emergency services after which he made a landing. It turned out that all 6 blades of his aerostar had bent precisely 90 degrees at about 10 cm in. There was not so much as a slight vibration while he was holding
Anyway, not saying you are wrong. I'm just sharing a good ending story
Mono
What? It had a back prop as well?
Yes, there's them that haven't & them that will - then there's them that have done it one more than one occasion like someone I know! I have seen two incidences of prop strikes over the years, the first in a C210 & the second in a Seneca. Both were followed by go arounds. In both cases the pilots were not aware they had damaged the prop until it was pointed out to them. The guy in the Seneca actually wanted to borrow a hacksaw so he could cut the bent tips off & keep on going! DF.
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i remember hearin a story of a fella in an MU2 doing the cooly bank run outta sydney, he landed at coffs wheels up, noticed when touched he applied power went around re landed. then contiuned the run, back at sydney casa were waiting. :-) DOH
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The big insurance issue regarding the Yak was it insured for training ,if not no payout !Most warbirds that are insured generaly do so with nomonated pilots in doing that the premiums will stay much lower ...
I'm wondering if the fact that there is a "cutting" with a road in it that is about 10 metres deep just off the end of R/way 28 in the over shoot area prompted the pilot to attempt the "go round"?
I fly out of AF regularly and have been concerned that there could be an overshoot/undershoot incident at the western end of 10/28 if a landing or rejected takeoff went awry. Falling over the edge of a 10 metre drop at 30-40knots on the roll out is not an enticing thought in my opinion.
That thought may also have occurred to this pilot and he chose to try and clear the cutting and take his chances in the relatively open area beyond the fence. The resulting safe exit of both pilots would seem to vindicate this sort of decision.
I fly out of AF regularly and have been concerned that there could be an overshoot/undershoot incident at the western end of 10/28 if a landing or rejected takeoff went awry. Falling over the edge of a 10 metre drop at 30-40knots on the roll out is not an enticing thought in my opinion.
That thought may also have occurred to this pilot and he chose to try and clear the cutting and take his chances in the relatively open area beyond the fence. The resulting safe exit of both pilots would seem to vindicate this sort of decision.
