"Upwind Join"?

[Aussie Andy]

Hi one and all, I have what will probably seem a dumb question to you guys flying in Australia: I will be renting an a/c while at home in Sydney in a couple of weeks time for local, mountain and coastal (up to Taree and back) flights. Perusing the various Visual Pilot Guides (http://www.casa.gov.au/pilots/pilotgde.htm) etc. to re-familiarise myself with Australian procedures (yes, and reading the various NAS-related publications), I see references to "JOIN UPWIND" which confuses me slightly, as its not something you hear here in the UK much... Referring to the following handy diagram for reference:



An UPWIND DEPARTURE is obvious, i.e. straight out. I guess an UPWIND JOIN would be a bit like joining overhead, i.e. fly above circuit height on the runway centreline - but when would you descend? I am not crazy about the idea of descending to circuit height on the upwind leg, as that would potentially mean descending into someone who is climbing straightout on an UPWIND DEPARTURE... so I guess then that is not what is intended, so I must be misunderstanding what is meant by an UPWIND JOIN!?

Of course I will simply clarify local practice with the chaps I rent the a/c from out at Camden... but if someone can help clear up my confusion in advance, then that'd be appreciated!

Thanks,

Andy

[DeltaSix]

Andy, firstly - you don't descend to circuit height in the circuit not unless instructed by the tower ( e.g. join downwind). If you intend to land at an uncontrolled aerodrome you descend to circuit height on the "dead side" of the circuit. The "dead side" is the otherside of the circuit. Eg. If the runway has a left hand circuit as your drawing indicates, you descend to circuit height on the righthand side of final and upwind and when clear of traffic, you join crosswind or mid crosswind. I have never done an "Upwind Join". I'm not sure if anyone has not unless you are doing a go around I guess. Personally I wouldn't do it just in case I missed seeing an aircraft joining crosswind or taking off (upwind). If the tower instructs you to, then so be it. I would like to think that if this is the tower's instruction, they have already taken into account the traffic situation.

Hope this helps

D6

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks -- OK, from what you say then sounds like when you guys say "join upwind" it really means something more akin to our "overhead join", i.e. overhaed above circuit height (check out windsock etc) then descend on the dead-side and join crosswind. I have looked in the AIP for a definition of "upwind join" and not found it...

I have never done a "Upwind Join".

So why do they talk about it in the VPGs? I get the feeling I am missing some context?

Andy

[scrambler]

And Page ENR 1.1-82 explains the uncontrolled aerodrome procedures

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks!

Direct, Scambler - thanks! Yes I have the big PDF, but hadn't been able to spot the right pages so thats a big help mate... have printed it and its clear, so now I understand what I will do if told to "JOIN UPWIND" by ATC..

And I now also understand that it would only make sense in the GAAP context, as you need ATC to provide the cue to know when to descend - although I think its a bit weird doing this by merely giving a sequence number, and would prefer a "descend to circuit height" type command... In other words, this bit (AIP ENR 1.1, par 32.1) will be a big surprise to many foreign pilots I think:

32. ENTRY TO THE CIRCUIT
32.1 A circuit entry instruction constitutes a clearance to descend to the circuit altitude specified in ERSA, except where: a. ATC issues an instruction to “OVERFLY AT (level)”, “JOIN UPWIND AT (level)”, or “MAINTAIN (level); or b. an alternative procedure is specified in ERSA.

(Obviously, the MAINTAIN LEVEL instruction would be undertsood)...

But on the other hand, you have such good VPG's (I don't think anyone anywhere else has anything to rival these!) that its all a doddle anyway really.

But hey "when in Rome..."

Thanks again guys for clearing this one up for me!

Andy

[andrew495]

I believe you can join upwind at a CTAF.

Taken straight from Flight Safety Australia magazine Nov/Dec issue:

"Aircraft must join the circuit on upwind, crosswind or downwind leg: All aircraft approaching an aerodrome to land must join the circuit pattern for the aerodrome on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg of the circuit, unless the pilot is conducting a straight-in visual approach to landing, or an instrument approach in IMC, in accordance with the regulatory requirements."

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2005/dec/64-65.pdf

It makes it sound like a standard circuit join, so I imagine you should be at circuit height by the time you join upwind, just as you should be at circuit height for a downwind join or another join that you make. I've been in an aircraft (not flying myself) that has joined upwind before, and although it is generally unusual to join upwind, it worked well because it permitted us to be overhead and check the windsock (we already presumed this particular runway would be used from the forecast), and there were also parallel runways so it prevented confusion descending to circuit height with both sides live after doing an overfly. Fortunately due to the direction we came from and minimal traffic there was no problem in relation to flying through a circuit leg at circuit height which I guess is possible (like flying through downwind or base or something to get over the top and join upwind), but rather than speculating over all of this it is probably easiest and also most practicle to do what seems best at the time. And look out the window and use the radio and traffic should be okay.

I think most of the time its easiest to overfly and join midfield crosswind or join downwind anyway.

Hope this can put your mind to rest for the time being.

Andrew

[Andy_RR]

join upwind?

I may be being dumb, but I thought that a GAAP instruction to join up/downwind was basically a clearance to descend to circuit height and that it was usually proceeded with a follow instruction or a "number 1, cleared to land" or something similar.

For example, at YPJT you would report at say Forrestdale Lake and be given an overfly 1500 instruction. The next instruction would typically be a 'join mid/early/late downwind - follow the blah'. I guess if the downwind leg was chock-a's then it might be expected for tower to give you a 'join upwind', which I would take to imply the same descent clearance as a downwind join instruction.

Do I have it all screwed up?

A

[Awol57]

No you are correct, the join is a clearance to descend. Unless ATC specifies a height to maintain. To use JT as an example, on a busy day, inbound from ADWD, with 06's as the duty runways, with a lot of outbound traffic you may be told to join upwind at 1500'. This obviously does not constitute a descent. You typically get an instruction to join late downwind once the tower gives you traffic to follow so you will not conflict with any aircraft overflying from FDL.

[kookabat]

Camden is a little weird because of the glider circuit to the south...