Some People Are a Worry
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OZAZTEC
Just a thought, and no I am not related to Mr/Mrs/Miss 7700, but had the rego been ###, you may well have not identified the keen student who has now benefited by your experience and his own.
I recently saw a landing, downwind (10-15kts) and a heavily load C172, I knew the a/c and who runs it, and I deliberated for a bit, and then realised, If I did something silly that could have been a threat to safety I would want to learn from it before it hurt me. So I had a quiet word to the CFI and all was sweet. Sometime being too anon. or polite can have a less than desirable outcome.
just a thought.........
Squawk6969
Just a thought, and no I am not related to Mr/Mrs/Miss 7700, but had the rego been ###, you may well have not identified the keen student who has now benefited by your experience and his own.
I recently saw a landing, downwind (10-15kts) and a heavily load C172, I knew the a/c and who runs it, and I deliberated for a bit, and then realised, If I did something silly that could have been a threat to safety I would want to learn from it before it hurt me. So I had a quiet word to the CFI and all was sweet. Sometime being too anon. or polite can have a less than desirable outcome.
just a thought.........
Squawk6969
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Jeeezuz.......
all i did was quote from another source, simply to highlight the point of my post...
if you cared to check my source, which obviously some have, i have not copied the entire post, or the entire block of text, just enough to highlight my the point of my post....
no different to others quoting newspapers, magazine articals, reports etc, and ironically enough, i didnt not disclose the location of text i quoted, by whom, or what site....which, incidently, even being heavlily moderated, has almost no negative posts regarding anyone or any organisation, and most if not all participants are willing to help their fellow aviators, and just talk flying and the issues brough about by aircraft Ownership! unlike the usual rantings and negativity here on PPrune.
for whatever reasons,other disclosed the source of my quoted text. or is it just the stereotypical response from some GA pilots with their distane, for whatever reason, of the Ultralight fraternity....(who fly faster in aircraft they own
)
ahh f**k it, why did i even bother to write all that...........
so back to my post, being a sydney based pilot, and not having experience flying in the Melbourne area, i have been surprised by the amount of issues arising from that part of the world, and am now wondering why things like this havnt been reported more often, as obviously its rapidly becoming a safety issue as more and more stories like this are recalled..
all i did was quote from another source, simply to highlight the point of my post...
if you cared to check my source, which obviously some have, i have not copied the entire post, or the entire block of text, just enough to highlight my the point of my post....
no different to others quoting newspapers, magazine articals, reports etc, and ironically enough, i didnt not disclose the location of text i quoted, by whom, or what site....which, incidently, even being heavlily moderated, has almost no negative posts regarding anyone or any organisation, and most if not all participants are willing to help their fellow aviators, and just talk flying and the issues brough about by aircraft Ownership! unlike the usual rantings and negativity here on PPrune.
for whatever reasons,other disclosed the source of my quoted text.
or is it just the stereotypical response from some GA pilots with their distane, for whatever reason, of the Ultralight fraternity....(who fly faster in aircraft they own ) ahh f**k it, why did i even bother to write all that...........
so back to my post, being a sydney based pilot, and not having experience flying in the Melbourne area, i have been surprised by the amount of issues arising from that part of the world, and am now wondering why things like this havnt been reported more often, as obviously its rapidly becoming a safety issue as more and more stories like this are recalled..
Last edited by Ultralights; 25th Oct 2006 at 08:02.
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Ultralights wrote
I have flown in both cities, and my best bet is due to the number of Asian airline trainees in Melbourne. Institutions at Point cook, Moorabbin and Essendon all have Chinese airline training contracts.
I reckon it comes down to the typical NOOBNESS of a ppl/cpl student mixed in with a bit (a lot) of language troubles...
And yes night ccts @ YMMB is a good way to put some hair on the chest, or loose some off the head!!
being a sydney based pilot, and not having experience flying in the Melbourne area, i have been surprised by the amount of issues arising from that part of the world, and am now wondering why things like this havnt been reported more often, as obviously its rapidly becoming a safety issue as more and more stories like this are recalled..
I reckon it comes down to the typical NOOBNESS of a ppl/cpl student mixed in with a bit (a lot) of language troubles...
And yes night ccts @ YMMB is a good way to put some hair on the chest, or loose some off the head!!
I've just had a discussion with a teacher of (20 years of teaching) about this. It's a two part problem.
1. The english required and taught is a six month course to whats called "Cambridge Certificate" level - it simply isn't good enough based on her experience because it doesn't go far enough. This means that students have cognitive deficiencies. As in they are obviously bright and intelligent but simply cannot always translate what you have said into meaningful concepts (as in "protect the nosewheel").
2. There is a bias towards saying "yes" even when you don't understand something. This is partly cultural and partly just dumb spoiled kid. This is sometimes remedied by going and talking to a "friend" and asking them what the teacher was talking about. Guess the results.
Solutions:
Teaching is not as easy as many people think, parter is still learning after 20 years in the profession - and she is very good at what she does (state reviewer, marks VCE, has students who top the state, etc.) People have different learning styles. Haptic (doing), Seeing, hearing, writing. People without good English language skills are at a serious disadvantage.
b. Discussions, hiring or consultation with a qualified and highly trained teacher of English as a second language (ESL) by those who train these students would be a very good idea.
The techniques she uses for getting knowledge into students for whom english is a second language involve.
1. Telling them what they need to know.
2. Getting them to write it down.
3. (This is critical) Confirming that they understand what they have just been taught as in "Show me that you understand what I have just taught you".
All this has to be done one on one, with no "friend" present if you want to succeed. The ever present "friend" is the greatest source of trouble in the known universe because they are a constant source of disinformation as well as a prop when things go wrong, as in "My friend told me that this was the way to do this".
I hope somebody is aware of this matter because its been in the back of my mind for some time. I'd like to think that trainees receive a great education here, have pleasant memories of the place, and return home in one piece.
I don't want to hear the tower at YMMB call "xxx overfly 1500, report overhead, this is the third time I have told you to do this" again.
I don't want to hear another stressed CFI (not at YMMB) somewhat forcefully debrief a foriegn student with less than good english where the words "stall" and "Spin" feature too many times.
And I'm sick of silent Cessnas.
1. The english required and taught is a six month course to whats called "Cambridge Certificate" level - it simply isn't good enough based on her experience because it doesn't go far enough. This means that students have cognitive deficiencies. As in they are obviously bright and intelligent but simply cannot always translate what you have said into meaningful concepts (as in "protect the nosewheel").
2. There is a bias towards saying "yes" even when you don't understand something. This is partly cultural and partly just dumb spoiled kid. This is sometimes remedied by going and talking to a "friend" and asking them what the teacher was talking about. Guess the results.
Solutions:
Teaching is not as easy as many people think, parter is still learning after 20 years in the profession - and she is very good at what she does (state reviewer, marks VCE, has students who top the state, etc.) People have different learning styles. Haptic (doing), Seeing, hearing, writing. People without good English language skills are at a serious disadvantage.
b. Discussions, hiring or consultation with a qualified and highly trained teacher of English as a second language (ESL) by those who train these students would be a very good idea.
The techniques she uses for getting knowledge into students for whom english is a second language involve.
1. Telling them what they need to know.
2. Getting them to write it down.
3. (This is critical) Confirming that they understand what they have just been taught as in "Show me that you understand what I have just taught you".
All this has to be done one on one, with no "friend" present if you want to succeed. The ever present "friend" is the greatest source of trouble in the known universe because they are a constant source of disinformation as well as a prop when things go wrong, as in "My friend told me that this was the way to do this".
I hope somebody is aware of this matter because its been in the back of my mind for some time. I'd like to think that trainees receive a great education here, have pleasant memories of the place, and return home in one piece.
I don't want to hear the tower at YMMB call "xxx overfly 1500, report overhead, this is the third time I have told you to do this" again.
I don't want to hear another stressed CFI (not at YMMB) somewhat forcefully debrief a foriegn student with less than good english where the words "stall" and "Spin" feature too many times.
And I'm sick of silent Cessnas.
The ATSB doesn't really have the power to change things as such... They only work out what happened after someone crashes and or dies, then they, (possibly in conjunction with the coroner), make recommendations to CASA and or Government to rectify the problems.
If you have a problem with aviation safety in Melbourne directly caused by poor english speaking pilots, you need to talk to someone at your CASA field office, probably at Moorabbin. Vent your concerns and see if you get action. Believe me, most feedback does get back one way or another and sometimes it can be nasty if you are the recipient
To the gent who "turned back." You can't let other people's radio calls dictate your flight path and or intentions to land or whatever. Much of Australia's airspace doesn't require you to even have a radio. It's all about see and be seen and see and avoid. If you suspect an aircraft is nearby, have a good look out the window(s). I can't recall the number of times I've heard an aircraft quote "east" instead of "west," in fact I've probably done it myself. 8 times out of 10 you will probably never actually see the other aircraft in the CTAF / CTAF(R) anyway, unless you are actually in the circuit with them... so chill out, look out and fly safe.
"Ladies and Gentlemen this is your captain speaking. Thank you for joining us today on Qantas Flight QF46 to Tokyo. We have begun our descent into Tokyo, however I'm having trouble understanding the air traffic controllers heavy Japanese accent, so unfortunately we have to fly back to Sydney. Sorry for the inconvenience. Oh and sorry but we don't have enough fuel to make it back."
If you have a problem with aviation safety in Melbourne directly caused by poor english speaking pilots, you need to talk to someone at your CASA field office, probably at Moorabbin. Vent your concerns and see if you get action. Believe me, most feedback does get back one way or another and sometimes it can be nasty if you are the recipient
To the gent who "turned back." You can't let other people's radio calls dictate your flight path and or intentions to land or whatever. Much of Australia's airspace doesn't require you to even have a radio. It's all about see and be seen and see and avoid. If you suspect an aircraft is nearby, have a good look out the window(s). I can't recall the number of times I've heard an aircraft quote "east" instead of "west," in fact I've probably done it myself. 8 times out of 10 you will probably never actually see the other aircraft in the CTAF / CTAF(R) anyway, unless you are actually in the circuit with them... so chill out, look out and fly safe.
"Ladies and Gentlemen this is your captain speaking. Thank you for joining us today on Qantas Flight QF46 to Tokyo. We have begun our descent into Tokyo, however I'm having trouble understanding the air traffic controllers heavy Japanese accent, so unfortunately we have to fly back to Sydney. Sorry for the inconvenience. Oh and sorry but we don't have enough fuel to make it back."
Last edited by Squawk7700; 25th Oct 2006 at 23:34. Reason: to add the sarcasm stuff
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chit chat
.....indeed we have a lot of pilots here private & otherwise concerned about radio tx's breakdowns. We sadly live & fly in a very self regulated world, good or otherwise I agree & encourage those that do experience a comms breakdown as well as a separation breakdown to report it via the correct channels, (ATSB forms) so that way we can demonstrate that even tho the boffins in their ivory towers think that it's safe to fly pretty much OCTA with the belief that "see & be seen" is the answer to all VFR problems is & very well could be sadly a potential mid air just awaiting to be had.
We are also indeed fortunate to be flying in a relatively quite airspace, (compared to most other countries) imagine what it's like flying around close to a major airport in the USA where they have VFR lanes clear over the top of some major airports!(well they used to have that might have changed by now)
capt Wally :-)
p.s.............for those that may have 2X VHF comms try listening (when safe to do so) to 121.5............the "on guard" freq monitored by the airlines & some other major operators, you want to hear the 'stuff' on there, you would think it was a private 'chit chat' freq for the specific use of the majors, intentional or otherwise !:-)
We are also indeed fortunate to be flying in a relatively quite airspace, (compared to most other countries) imagine what it's like flying around close to a major airport in the USA where they have VFR lanes clear over the top of some major airports!(well they used to have that might have changed by now)
capt Wally :-)
p.s.............for those that may have 2X VHF comms try listening (when safe to do so) to 121.5............the "on guard" freq monitored by the airlines & some other major operators, you want to hear the 'stuff' on there, you would think it was a private 'chit chat' freq for the specific use of the majors, intentional or otherwise !:-)
You mean we aren't supposed to use 121.5 ??? $#$@#? What other frequency am I supposed to use when 123.45 is busy?
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Since 121.5 has come up in this conversation, and all you "proffessional pilots" who monitor it, the absolute FARKING children that persist on making the most ridiculous and inappropriate remarks is a discrace. Yesterday on a flight, the number of times I heard someone on that frequency quoting cartoon charcters or the 12th man or whoever comes into their grade 3 mind was annoying to say the least. Pity the poor bastard who one day is in real trouble and one notices because people turn the frequency off to avoid this crap. If it is F/O`s doing it, Captain should give them a SMACK IN THE MOUTH. If it is the Captain, then wake up to yourself you infantile fool(and hope the pshyc dept don`t find out, cause they would seriously have to consider whether you are mature enough to command a jet). And if its you G.A wankers, then no wonder you are not in an airline.
Not calling GA pilots wankers, just the ones that are invovled with the above whinge.
Not calling GA pilots wankers, just the ones that are invovled with the above whinge.
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Squawk 7700,
The thread ain't about my decisions - although I appreciate your advice. You will notice in my post that he was coming from the WEST out of a lowering sun.
I may well 'be seen' - but no way am I going to 'see' him. Situations like this are precisely why radio (and radio technique/clarity) are important. And anyway, since it was a CTAF (R) AND he had a radio, he should have been intelligible.
You'd be naive to think mid-air collisions never happen and I considered there to be a collision risk (same altitude, same airport) - I'll wager most pilots in the same situation would have done the same thing or something else to reduce the risk.
And pretty sure QF46 to Tokyo isn't a VFR flight - there may even be ATC and Radar in Tokyo for traffic. Maybe they even have TCAS?
So........keep the slightly personal tone down, chill yourself out and everyone will stay happy.
The thread ain't about my decisions - although I appreciate your advice. You will notice in my post that he was coming from the WEST out of a lowering sun.
I may well 'be seen' - but no way am I going to 'see' him. Situations like this are precisely why radio (and radio technique/clarity) are important. And anyway, since it was a CTAF (R) AND he had a radio, he should have been intelligible.
You'd be naive to think mid-air collisions never happen and I considered there to be a collision risk (same altitude, same airport) - I'll wager most pilots in the same situation would have done the same thing or something else to reduce the risk.
And pretty sure QF46 to Tokyo isn't a VFR flight - there may even be ATC and Radar in Tokyo for traffic. Maybe they even have TCAS?
So........keep the slightly personal tone down, chill yourself out and everyone will stay happy.
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Rookie Plebs??
Gee you guys seem to know everything.
How about coming up to NT @ showing me @ the a boys a few things.?
Quite sure i need your advice after 11 years in the territory.!!!
Cheers M
How about coming up to NT @ showing me @ the a boys a few things.?
Quite sure i need your advice after 11 years in the territory.!!!
Cheers M
Last edited by multime; 26th Oct 2006 at 11:08.
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Little boys @there daddies money
Experience will dictate the end of this proceedings.
You Maesai have little respect for anything i guess.
Look forward to seeing you at an interview should you ever have the determination to stick it out in the real world for a while and leave mummys aprons strings at home.
While you and your little boys can rant @ rave in Melbourne.
Wet seasons approaching.
Come up.
IDENTIFY YOURSELF.
Then let your actions speak LOUDER than words.
Your comments can ,t justify your actions?.
I guess thats why i,m in the NT.(CP of some company).Cao 82.1 approval beats some rant of a little boy.?
Besides the weathers great.Fishing great.Lifestyles Great.YEP---thats why i,m in the NORTHERN TERRITORY !!!!!.
Up here its a lifestyle, not a job.
We do it proudly @ without ignorance or arrogance.
We love our country.
It,s not just a way for spoilt kids to further their way into an Airline.
But when you and others like you grow up, i hope you,ll realise that.
Cheers M: ok:
You Maesai have little respect for anything i guess.
Look forward to seeing you at an interview should you ever have the determination to stick it out in the real world for a while and leave mummys aprons strings at home.
While you and your little boys can rant @ rave in Melbourne.
Wet seasons approaching.
Come up.
IDENTIFY YOURSELF.
Then let your actions speak LOUDER than words.
Your comments can ,t justify your actions?.
I guess thats why i,m in the NT.(CP of some company).Cao 82.1 approval beats some rant of a little boy.?
Besides the weathers great.Fishing great.Lifestyles Great.YEP---thats why i,m in the NORTHERN TERRITORY !!!!!.
Up here its a lifestyle, not a job.
We do it proudly @ without ignorance or arrogance.
We love our country.
It,s not just a way for spoilt kids to further their way into an Airline.
But when you and others like you grow up, i hope you,ll realise that.
Cheers M: ok:
What's with the use of all the "@"'s, which actually mean "each at".
I suspect you may have been looking for an ampersand "&", meaning "and".
Just so you know, it's right above the 7 on the top line of your keyboard...............that's the bent looking number between 6 & 8
I suspect you may have been looking for an ampersand "&", meaning "and".
Just so you know, it's right above the 7 on the top line of your keyboard...............that's the bent looking number between 6 & 8
This thread appears to be headed for closure as they often do.
Man, if you didn't notice, I mentioned sarcasm at the end of my post. I still feel the see and avoid principles remain no matter where you are...
... which brings me to my next point on how some IFR pilots cancel their IFR seemingly far too late when flying into a CTAF and overwork the poor controller who has to constantly update them on traffic information; it's beyond a joke when he has to do 10+ traffic updates and the IFR guy responds when his attention could be better spent looking out the window....
... and don't get me started on the classic 2 mile 5 mile straight in approach. Seems many people like to establish final on 2 miles rather than 5 and they are seemingly hardly ever where they should be. I'd have to do a calculation, however in theory if the 5 mile straight in approach was done correctly, in many cases it would be shorter and quicker to overfly and do a quick circuit. At 5 miles in many places at 1,000ft without GPS reference it can be hard to actually be established on an actual 5 mile final and even with gps you'd need to set the GPS to the radial of the runway (if it even has that feature) to actually align yourself - I don't think the majority of people on 5 mile finals are even thinking about doing this.
Enough bitching for this morning from me.
Man, if you didn't notice, I mentioned sarcasm at the end of my post. I still feel the see and avoid principles remain no matter where you are...
... which brings me to my next point on how some IFR pilots cancel their IFR seemingly far too late when flying into a CTAF and overwork the poor controller who has to constantly update them on traffic information; it's beyond a joke when he has to do 10+ traffic updates and the IFR guy responds when his attention could be better spent looking out the window....
... and don't get me started on the classic 2 mile 5 mile straight in approach. Seems many people like to establish final on 2 miles rather than 5 and they are seemingly hardly ever where they should be. I'd have to do a calculation, however in theory if the 5 mile straight in approach was done correctly, in many cases it would be shorter and quicker to overfly and do a quick circuit. At 5 miles in many places at 1,000ft without GPS reference it can be hard to actually be established on an actual 5 mile final and even with gps you'd need to set the GPS to the radial of the runway (if it even has that feature) to actually align yourself - I don't think the majority of people on 5 mile finals are even thinking about doing this.
Enough bitching for this morning from me.
Now that's interesting and gives hope to many of the old threads.
This thread (I thought) finished 8 months ago!
This thread (I thought) finished 8 months ago!
