Surplus of Grade3 Instructors.
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The instructing path aint for everybody but it sure was the best choice for me. Those who choose the instructing path can establish a great career in an airline providing they are prepared to give it their best effort and relocate to a school that does plenty of IFR and multi training. This path is certainly not for the whingers.
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I suppose the question is how many of these semi-employed instructors actually want to instruct? Realistically most new pilots will take on jobs like instructing as a means to reaching the airlines but there are many who get the rating only to find they don't actually enjoy instructing. I have heard people say "I just don't have the patience for instructing but what else do I do? I can't find any other flying work in Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne". If there is indeed a surplus of jnr gr.3 instructors and you aren't really getting the rating because you want to instruct then pack up your car, leave your comfort zone and try charter. It's rewarding, will generally get you on to a twin quicker than instructing, and stuffs a whole lot more experience in your logbook. I left instructing a long time ago and It always amazes me when I hear people tell me they won't leave instructing because "it's a flying job, but I can't seem to get any multi-time and the regionals won't look at me". On the other hand if you really want to teach people then go for it because instructing can also be really rewarding for those who enjoy it.
Last edited by biton; 25th Oct 2006 at 00:16. Reason: extra thoughts
Thread Starter
Sykes/Award.
I believe some of the positions advertised as paying the award are using clauses of the award to lower the actual salary ie. only paying the IR supplement when it is used, equally the META allowance being paid only when the instructor is actually carrying out twin training. So in fact if you have a bunch of students going through to MECIR one would be paid the META allowance only for that portion of the training when the META is used, the result means one would prob get the META award for a couple of months.
If the majority of the training is on singles the salary will be paid for se training as per the award. So I would suggest that if a company is saying they are paying the award make sure you get the figure in writing. I hear Tasmania are offering $41,500 for a Gr.2 with IFR. Make sure the figure quoted is in dollars.
Sykes I am not retired I was suppose to go to the 380, unfortunately its been delayed so I wont end my career flying it, but those are the breaks.
If the majority of the training is on singles the salary will be paid for se training as per the award. So I would suggest that if a company is saying they are paying the award make sure you get the figure in writing. I hear Tasmania are offering $41,500 for a Gr.2 with IFR. Make sure the figure quoted is in dollars.
Sykes I am not retired I was suppose to go to the 380, unfortunately its been delayed so I wont end my career flying it, but those are the breaks.
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In my opinion,from what I have observed the guys that:
Get off their butt and get proactive,
stay enthusiastic,
work really hard,
apply commonsense to the job,
work really hard
don't tread on any toes,
get on with the boss,
work really hard,
have a beer after work,
keep a sense of humour,
work really hard,
plan their next step the day after they land a job,
update employers constantly,
pick up a telephone and cold call,
work really hard,
don't crash,
Will be sitting in an airline job as quick as progression allows. Meanwhile the slack, whinging, pilot who feels they are owed something will still be complaining about the state of the industry while they wait for the phone to ring. It doesn't matter which path you choose, it is your ATTITUDE that gets you there.
Get off their butt and get proactive,
stay enthusiastic,
work really hard,
apply commonsense to the job,
work really hard
don't tread on any toes,
get on with the boss,
work really hard,
have a beer after work,
keep a sense of humour,
work really hard,
plan their next step the day after they land a job,
update employers constantly,
pick up a telephone and cold call,
work really hard,
don't crash,
Will be sitting in an airline job as quick as progression allows. Meanwhile the slack, whinging, pilot who feels they are owed something will still be complaining about the state of the industry while they wait for the phone to ring. It doesn't matter which path you choose, it is your ATTITUDE that gets you there.
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Iceblock.
We all work hard I would average a 50 hour week for about $20,000 a year. I am sure I'm not the only one. How much longer can I do this for is a good question, but now with a Gr.2 and MECIR hopefully things will change. I have updated CV's and cold called but with no results.
Yet operators up North reckon they can't find pilots to fly their 210. Perhaps they should look at their CV's. Going up on spec to clean hangars, take on odd jobs in the hope of getting a job is not on. No other industry treats their workers the way GA treats their pilots.
Yet operators up North reckon they can't find pilots to fly their 210. Perhaps they should look at their CV's. Going up on spec to clean hangars, take on odd jobs in the hope of getting a job is not on. No other industry treats their workers the way GA treats their pilots.
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Iceblock,
I have to agree with you. Work hard, don't winge, don't crash, operate professionally and be responsible. Six of my collegues within the last 11 months joined major internationals. They were all instructors. I think attitude has a major role in success, not just the nature of the experience.
I have to agree with you. Work hard, don't winge, don't crash, operate professionally and be responsible. Six of my collegues within the last 11 months joined major internationals. They were all instructors. I think attitude has a major role in success, not just the nature of the experience.
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Hi,
I hate to use this reference to the movie (Top Gun) but it has application not only to Tom's motives in the movie but other areas as well:
Kelly McGillis to Tom Cruise when he makes a pass at her:
"It takes a lot more than fancy flying!".
How true that is when employers look at pilots, yet it appears that some pilots don't get the message.
Tinkicker
I hate to use this reference to the movie (Top Gun) but it has application not only to Tom's motives in the movie but other areas as well:
Kelly McGillis to Tom Cruise when he makes a pass at her:
"It takes a lot more than fancy flying!".
How true that is when employers look at pilots, yet it appears that some pilots don't get the message.
Tinkicker
Thread Starter
Jimmy/Tin.
Iceblock,
I have to agree with you. Work hard, don't winge, don't crash, operate professionally and be responsible. Six of my collegues within the last 11 months joined major internationals. They were all instructors. I think attitude has a major role in success, not just the nature of the experience.
It’s interesting that the least educated in GA keeping talking about professionalism. I have never seen this word used by so many and whose fellow workers are treated so badly, in comparison to other professions. Perhaps we need to raise the education levels for entry into this industry, not only will it reduce the number of dreamers entering aviation but hopefully it might raise the caliber of owner/operator.
Six of my collegues within the last 11 months joined major internationals. They were all instructors.
There is only ONE international airline that I know of that would employ pilots with an instructor only background and that airline has a school in Jandakot that offers a career for their instructors. So lets not exaggerate the opportunities.Tinkicker.
"It takes a lot more than fancy flying!".
You are absolutely correct. Not only do you have to do the “fancy flying” but then clean hangars, toilets have a good work ethic which includes flying old, overloaded, badly maintained aircraft all for the love of flying. Salary well don’t worry about that after all we are all flying for the love of it. The bills will take care of themselves.
I do not know of any so called profession where a worker spends long hours at work carrying out all sorts of sundry duties but only gets paid when he or she flies. I hope you two guys may continue to have long hours at work and enjoy it and make sure you two maintain the right attitude; after all we fly for the fun of it.
Thank god individuals like you two are not in the airlines otherwise all of us would end up in the cesspit that you two are in.
I have to agree with you. Work hard, don't winge, don't crash, operate professionally and be responsible. Six of my collegues within the last 11 months joined major internationals. They were all instructors. I think attitude has a major role in success, not just the nature of the experience.
It’s interesting that the least educated in GA keeping talking about professionalism. I have never seen this word used by so many and whose fellow workers are treated so badly, in comparison to other professions. Perhaps we need to raise the education levels for entry into this industry, not only will it reduce the number of dreamers entering aviation but hopefully it might raise the caliber of owner/operator.
Six of my collegues within the last 11 months joined major internationals. They were all instructors.
There is only ONE international airline that I know of that would employ pilots with an instructor only background and that airline has a school in Jandakot that offers a career for their instructors. So lets not exaggerate the opportunities.Tinkicker.
"It takes a lot more than fancy flying!".
You are absolutely correct. Not only do you have to do the “fancy flying” but then clean hangars, toilets have a good work ethic which includes flying old, overloaded, badly maintained aircraft all for the love of flying. Salary well don’t worry about that after all we are all flying for the love of it. The bills will take care of themselves.
I do not know of any so called profession where a worker spends long hours at work carrying out all sorts of sundry duties but only gets paid when he or she flies. I hope you two guys may continue to have long hours at work and enjoy it and make sure you two maintain the right attitude; after all we fly for the fun of it.
Thank god individuals like you two are not in the airlines otherwise all of us would end up in the cesspit that you two are in.
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Hey MBA747,
what brought on this attack?
I was trying to point out that being a pilot is a lot more than just plain manipulative skill. It is about ATTITUDE.
I work in an area of aviation that sees a whole lot more of what you would on a day to day basis and the comments that you have directed at me could easily be directed at the sector of aviation that you are employed in.
Tinkicker (what I do for a living....)
what brought on this attack?
I was trying to point out that being a pilot is a lot more than just plain manipulative skill. It is about ATTITUDE.
I work in an area of aviation that sees a whole lot more of what you would on a day to day basis and the comments that you have directed at me could easily be directed at the sector of aviation that you are employed in.
Tinkicker (what I do for a living....)
Talking about attitude in GA is a very subjective thing.
Does someone who refuses to fly say 5kg overloaded, refuses to work over their daily limits, refuses to work unpaid, logs duty hours while working in the office, do they have the right attitude??
This kind of person would be labled as a "trouble maker" and "didn't fit into the company culture" "afraid of hard work" by some GA bosses.
However if you "tow the line" and do all the above because everyone else does, you would have a "solid work ethic" and "the right attitude".
Sometimes the "right attitude" is the "wrong attitude"
Does someone who refuses to fly say 5kg overloaded, refuses to work over their daily limits, refuses to work unpaid, logs duty hours while working in the office, do they have the right attitude??
This kind of person would be labled as a "trouble maker" and "didn't fit into the company culture" "afraid of hard work" by some GA bosses.
However if you "tow the line" and do all the above because everyone else does, you would have a "solid work ethic" and "the right attitude".
Sometimes the "right attitude" is the "wrong attitude"
MBA747,
Do you feel better now having flamed a few young grade 3 instrructors? Could you have picked a softer target???
As a senior pilot what responsibility do you take for the state aviation in this country?
Do you feel better now having flamed a few young grade 3 instrructors? Could you have picked a softer target???
As a senior pilot what responsibility do you take for the state aviation in this country?
Last edited by desmotronic; 27th Oct 2006 at 04:27. Reason: typo
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Sub standard
Most of what happens in GA today appears to have been caused by many of todays airline pilots, who started the rot by grovelling while they were in GA, in order to get the experience they needed. Are they now doing it within the airline system?
Also the obscene recruiting lottery that the airlines use to avoid training costs is doing HUGE damage to aviation in Australia generally. It is the major cause of the disaster that some parts of GA have become.
Also the obscene recruiting lottery that the airlines use to avoid training costs is doing HUGE damage to aviation in Australia generally. It is the major cause of the disaster that some parts of GA have become.
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Mba747..
Sorry mate but I don't believe a word your saying. If you are seriously a content airline pilot you would not be so involved in giving these young pilots a hard time.
For starters why would you start this thread and then continue to give these young pilots a hard time.
"There is only ONE international airline that I know of that would employ pilots with an instructor only background and that airline has a school in Jandakot that offers a career for their instructors. So lets not exaggerate the opportunities."
Ok.. So which airline do you work for??? You obviously dont talk to the pilots you work with. Having flown in the airlines for over 26 years I have flown with more "Instructor only" pilots than I can remember. Just yesterday I flew with an FO that worked at a small flying school out of Moorabbin airport ONLY. Having a son also working in GA as an instructor I make an effort to ask my FO's their flying backgrounds. The school which my son works at has had more than 6 direct entry airline pilots in the last 3 years. 4 Qantas, 1 Cathay Pacific and 1 Dragonair. 5 years ago they lost 6 to Qantas, 2 to Cathay and earlier 4 to Virgin Blue.
Clearly I dont believe you know what you are talking about???
Did you have a bad experience MBA. Are you an instructor yourself?
So did your flying daughter do any other flying to get her A320 gig?
"Sykes I am not retired I was suppose to go to the 380, unfortunately its been delayed so I wont end my career flying it, but those are the breaks."
And I see you are at a Perth location.. Interesting mate. 380 out of Perth. Im going to have to ask around as to which airline was planning to have Perth based 380 pilots. Sure thats the story!
I am imagining you to be a washed up GA pilot. If it is true Im wondering which airline was unfortunate enough to employ a sad case like yourself.
What aircraft are you currently flying?
My advise for all you young blokes out there.
DONT BELIEVE A WORD MBA747 HAS TO SAY. I'd almost guarentee you he is lying.
ISNT THIS YOUR FIRST EVER POST ON PPRUNE
Snr.Grade3 requires NAVEX for GR.2
Senior Grade 3 wanting NAVEX time to obtain a Grade2. All abinitio hours required have been obtained. All proposals considered. Would appreciate honest replies.
Get a life mate.
For starters why would you start this thread and then continue to give these young pilots a hard time.
"There is only ONE international airline that I know of that would employ pilots with an instructor only background and that airline has a school in Jandakot that offers a career for their instructors. So lets not exaggerate the opportunities."
Ok.. So which airline do you work for??? You obviously dont talk to the pilots you work with. Having flown in the airlines for over 26 years I have flown with more "Instructor only" pilots than I can remember. Just yesterday I flew with an FO that worked at a small flying school out of Moorabbin airport ONLY. Having a son also working in GA as an instructor I make an effort to ask my FO's their flying backgrounds. The school which my son works at has had more than 6 direct entry airline pilots in the last 3 years. 4 Qantas, 1 Cathay Pacific and 1 Dragonair. 5 years ago they lost 6 to Qantas, 2 to Cathay and earlier 4 to Virgin Blue.
Clearly I dont believe you know what you are talking about???
Did you have a bad experience MBA. Are you an instructor yourself?
So did your flying daughter do any other flying to get her A320 gig?
"Sykes I am not retired I was suppose to go to the 380, unfortunately its been delayed so I wont end my career flying it, but those are the breaks."
And I see you are at a Perth location.. Interesting mate. 380 out of Perth. Im going to have to ask around as to which airline was planning to have Perth based 380 pilots. Sure thats the story!
I am imagining you to be a washed up GA pilot. If it is true Im wondering which airline was unfortunate enough to employ a sad case like yourself.
What aircraft are you currently flying?
My advise for all you young blokes out there.
DONT BELIEVE A WORD MBA747 HAS TO SAY. I'd almost guarentee you he is lying.
ISNT THIS YOUR FIRST EVER POST ON PPRUNE
Snr.Grade3 requires NAVEX for GR.2
Senior Grade 3 wanting NAVEX time to obtain a Grade2. All abinitio hours required have been obtained. All proposals considered. Would appreciate honest replies.
Get a life mate.
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iceblock
The C210 operators have no trouble getting pilots to fly their 210's out bush. Unless of course you are fussy about who flies the machine that their life savings are tied up in.
The better operators know that if they want GOOD reliable pilots they have to pay them a liveable wage and keep them happy.
But it seems that there are some operators who put young inexperienced pilots in their aeroplanes and pay them very little, so they do not stay very long. This of course is not sustainable, unless there is a huge supply of wannabies they can exploit. And there is.
Sure, the young pilots have to start somewhere, and they do. But this is not the purpose of GA. If you were a charter passenger would you like to fly with a company that has only inexperienced, underpaid pilots?. Would you like to fly with a pilot who works for lower than normal wages?
It's still happening.
That's why some operators require minimum experience to meet the demands of their contract clients.
The better operators know that if they want GOOD reliable pilots they have to pay them a liveable wage and keep them happy.
But it seems that there are some operators who put young inexperienced pilots in their aeroplanes and pay them very little, so they do not stay very long. This of course is not sustainable, unless there is a huge supply of wannabies they can exploit. And there is.
Sure, the young pilots have to start somewhere, and they do. But this is not the purpose of GA. If you were a charter passenger would you like to fly with a company that has only inexperienced, underpaid pilots?. Would you like to fly with a pilot who works for lower than normal wages?
It's still happening.
That's why some operators require minimum experience to meet the demands of their contract clients.
