Light aircraft down north of Bathurst
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RIP and condolences to all family and friends.
Di
RIP and condolences to all family and friends.
Di
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Hmmm sad news indeed.
This
was turned into this;
which was turned into the BAC Strikemaster see below.
BAC represents the accumulation of all the British Manufacturers past.
This
was turned into this;
which was turned into the BAC Strikemaster see below.
BAC represents the accumulation of all the British Manufacturers past.
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Firstly my deepest and sincerest condolences to the family and friends.
Secondly, as someone who has worked on and around bang seats (and even gotten a few rides in them!) I agree that they are indeed a great safety device, but if not maintained and used to the strictest standards they are more hazardous than not having one fitted.In particular the Explosive Ordnance in the seats does not get an easy life and most cartridges and rocket motors have very short lives once installed on aircraft. In saying this it is just another expense that an operator would have to fork out for as part of the maintenance of his aircraft.
I do not believe CASA has banned ejection seats in these aircraft. I believe it is just the fact that no one has come up with an appropriate logistics, maintenance and servicing schedule for the seats along with a training and experience program for the people maintaining the seats to ensure they are initially competent, and then maintain their currency, on the seats. This is where the real cost lies and the fact that there are very few gunnies out there that would now be current or competent to maintain these older style seats, that are invariably fitted to these aircraft, means it is unlikely that anyone would get one installed. Mind you to get a rocket motor and cartridges that are in life for these seats would be nigh on impossible.
Additionally to get the small batches made would also be very very expensive.
Note that it would need to be a very small, but continual supply in order to rotate time expired EO and replace with new serviceable stuff.Mind you the Sabre at Temora might have one fitted and if and when they get a Mirage I believe it would be very necessary to have one fitted in order to enable the safe egress of a pilot in the event of an engine failure....CheersCB
Secondly, as someone who has worked on and around bang seats (and even gotten a few rides in them!) I agree that they are indeed a great safety device, but if not maintained and used to the strictest standards they are more hazardous than not having one fitted.In particular the Explosive Ordnance in the seats does not get an easy life and most cartridges and rocket motors have very short lives once installed on aircraft. In saying this it is just another expense that an operator would have to fork out for as part of the maintenance of his aircraft.
I do not believe CASA has banned ejection seats in these aircraft. I believe it is just the fact that no one has come up with an appropriate logistics, maintenance and servicing schedule for the seats along with a training and experience program for the people maintaining the seats to ensure they are initially competent, and then maintain their currency, on the seats. This is where the real cost lies and the fact that there are very few gunnies out there that would now be current or competent to maintain these older style seats, that are invariably fitted to these aircraft, means it is unlikely that anyone would get one installed. Mind you to get a rocket motor and cartridges that are in life for these seats would be nigh on impossible.
Additionally to get the small batches made would also be very very expensive.
Note that it would need to be a very small, but continual supply in order to rotate time expired EO and replace with new serviceable stuff.Mind you the Sabre at Temora might have one fitted and if and when they get a Mirage I believe it would be very necessary to have one fitted in order to enable the safe egress of a pilot in the event of an engine failure....CheersCB
Last edited by Cloud Basher; 6th Oct 2006 at 03:58.
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Condolences to the crew's family.
CB: From the Age:
In Australia, Temora Aviation Museum already operate a number of aircraft fitted with active ejection seats, and the chief engineer is Martin Baker qualified on maintaining them. However all the people in those seats are highly trained and experienced aircrew (or ocasionaly VIP guests) and are not paying passengers.
CB: From the Age:
...But CASA had ruled the ejector seats should be disarmed for safety reasons because the firing mechanism uses explosive charges, the spokesman said...
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i know of a few guys working at Willie that are qualified by Martin Baker, to work on their seats, and those gunnies have been in the game quite a while. so the trained experts are out there.
There is only ONE company in the world who is authorised by Martin Baker to supply cartridges for bang seats used in civvy aircraft, and that is Seatstar in the UK. Get hold of them if you want a quote, he can supply cartridges for pretty much any MB bang seat. Be aware that lead times can be very long, and a deposit is required up front.
Martin Baker cannot and will not supply cartridges to Joe Public directly.
Easy to do, just that most people can't be bothered.
Hawker Hunters must have a working bang seat, no matter where they are being operated.
Martin Baker cannot and will not supply cartridges to Joe Public directly.
Easy to do, just that most people can't be bothered.
Hawker Hunters must have a working bang seat, no matter where they are being operated.
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Seems they are selling the business because one of the team has moved on to Martin baker. .....
Due to one half of the Directorship taking employment with Martin-Baker in the USA, it will be impossible to carry on maintenance and product/customer support as we have done in the past. To maintain the continuity of correct working practices, at least two people are required to carry out seat maintenance, no question!
Therefore, after 15 years of being the ONLY Martin-Baker authorised, ex-military aircraft ejection seat maintenance facility, we have decided to move on.
It would seem you can't believe everything you read I'm afraid. The present owner of Seatstar is not Mick Cameron. He sold the business a couple of years ago. How do I know?? The present owner of Seatstar is sitting next to me 
Despite numerous requests, that particular website has not updated their webpage to reflect the fact the business was sold many moons ago.
It is, and has been, work as usual at Seatstar, and will continue as such for the forseeable future.
Cost of making good Strikemaster seats live, about £1000. That will give you 5 years before having to replace the cartridges. £200/year for the cartridge cost.
The MDC (Miniature Detonation Cord) as used in Stikemaster canopies is not allowed anymore, but there is a relatively simple mod, whereby the MDC is removed, and a compressed gas system is installed to jettison the canopy. It would seem this particular Strikemaster already had that part of the ejection system installed, but not the live seats.
Condolences to all involved in this tragedy.
All I can hope for is that other jet warbird operators have a long hard look at the costs associated with making their seats live.
I'm not saying that live seats would have made a difference in this case, I don't know enough about Ejection seats, or this accident to make be able to make that sort of statement. But I for one would like to have the chance to get out if it all turned to custard.
Despite numerous requests, that particular website has not updated their webpage to reflect the fact the business was sold many moons ago.
It is, and has been, work as usual at Seatstar, and will continue as such for the forseeable future.
Cost of making good Strikemaster seats live, about £1000. That will give you 5 years before having to replace the cartridges. £200/year for the cartridge cost.
The MDC (Miniature Detonation Cord) as used in Stikemaster canopies is not allowed anymore, but there is a relatively simple mod, whereby the MDC is removed, and a compressed gas system is installed to jettison the canopy. It would seem this particular Strikemaster already had that part of the ejection system installed, but not the live seats.
Condolences to all involved in this tragedy.
All I can hope for is that other jet warbird operators have a long hard look at the costs associated with making their seats live.
I'm not saying that live seats would have made a difference in this case, I don't know enough about Ejection seats, or this accident to make be able to make that sort of statement. But I for one would like to have the chance to get out if it all turned to custard.
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I too would like to be able to get out in case of an incident - I just wonder how one can quantify the risks involved in haved armed seats with untrained punters against thier availabilty (and obvious advantages) in a real incident such as the one that occurred.
I'm not sure what risks you are talking about. Risks associated with being injured if you have to use the seat, or the risk of somebody pulling the handle just to see if the seat works??
Wouldn't be too difficult to introduce a seat briefing as part of the whole flight experience. Discussion about what will be said prior to ejection, and what seating posture is recommended. Of course, in some cases, there won't be time to discuss the ejection before pulling the handle, it will be a Command Ejection, and you get what you are given. Still better than riding it down though.
As for any risk of a punter pulling the handle just to see if the seat works, I would rate the risk of that happening as the same as, or less than, the risk of said punter pulling the canopy open handle in flight.
After the seat briefing, you could even hand them a certificate stating that they had taken part in training for the Martin Baker Mk xxx seat, as per CASA regulations (if they existed).
Something for the punters wall, and proof that the punter should know what to do and what not to do.
Wouldn't be too difficult to introduce a seat briefing as part of the whole flight experience. Discussion about what will be said prior to ejection, and what seating posture is recommended. Of course, in some cases, there won't be time to discuss the ejection before pulling the handle, it will be a Command Ejection, and you get what you are given. Still better than riding it down though.
As for any risk of a punter pulling the handle just to see if the seat works, I would rate the risk of that happening as the same as, or less than, the risk of said punter pulling the canopy open handle in flight.
After the seat briefing, you could even hand them a certificate stating that they had taken part in training for the Martin Baker Mk xxx seat, as per CASA regulations (if they existed).
Something for the punters wall, and proof that the punter should know what to do and what not to do.
My understanding is that the main issue with bang-seats is the maintenance, and the only civilian to ever complete the Martin-Baker course on maintenance is the Temora Air Museum Chief Engineer.
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RIP Nick Costin. A geniunely passionate aviator whose marketing skills were an example many adventure tourism companies would do well to follow.
IMO the potential problems with live seats are many.
How do you operate? With the pins in? With the pins stowed? (In a Strikey the stowage is on the right hand coaming i.e the pax side).
I'm not suggesting that this following scenario is what happened, but how much time would you have if your wing fell off at low level (500ft) at 360kts? I don't believe that with pins in (with live seats) there would be any possible way this accident would have been survivable if the aircraft was at 500ft/360kts and the wing separated.
In this situation (perfectly legal under CASA regulations) would a Mk4 MB (0ft-90kts double cartridge) seat save you even if you pulled the handle straight away? Remember you have to wait for the canopy to go as the MDC's been removed. Would even a Mk10 MB (0-0 rocket) seat or later do the job? Would you get out at 3000ft in similar circumstances?
The real answer to these questions is who knows? The only answer we get from this tragedy is that without the seats, the result was a foregone conclusion and a very sad one at that.
IMO the potential problems with live seats are many.
How do you operate? With the pins in? With the pins stowed? (In a Strikey the stowage is on the right hand coaming i.e the pax side).
I'm not suggesting that this following scenario is what happened, but how much time would you have if your wing fell off at low level (500ft) at 360kts? I don't believe that with pins in (with live seats) there would be any possible way this accident would have been survivable if the aircraft was at 500ft/360kts and the wing separated.
In this situation (perfectly legal under CASA regulations) would a Mk4 MB (0ft-90kts double cartridge) seat save you even if you pulled the handle straight away? Remember you have to wait for the canopy to go as the MDC's been removed. Would even a Mk10 MB (0-0 rocket) seat or later do the job? Would you get out at 3000ft in similar circumstances?
The real answer to these questions is who knows? The only answer we get from this tragedy is that without the seats, the result was a foregone conclusion and a very sad one at that.
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ABC radio said this afternoon that "the right wing came off". They also said the ATSB investigators were delayed getting to the site due to a 700 hectare fire and the preliminary report would be available in a month.
Wouldn't take the statement "the right wing came off" too seriously just yet. Until the preliminary report is published anything else can only be conjecture.
I have no military experience but I would think bang seats may be far too dangerous in the hands of unqualified commercial passengers and no substitute for maintenance and reasonable operational restrictions? Perhaps consideration should be given to the fact these aircraft are not built to commercial specifications, are complex and maintenance intensive and may have unknown stress in their previous military roles?
Wouldn't take the statement "the right wing came off" too seriously just yet. Until the preliminary report is published anything else can only be conjecture.
I have no military experience but I would think bang seats may be far too dangerous in the hands of unqualified commercial passengers and no substitute for maintenance and reasonable operational restrictions? Perhaps consideration should be given to the fact these aircraft are not built to commercial specifications, are complex and maintenance intensive and may have unknown stress in their previous military roles?
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The report that the wing separated has come from the ATSB website. See http://www.atsb.gov.au/newsroom/2006...e/2006_43.aspx
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I would think that with proper fatigue monitoring, reasonable operational limitations there should be no problem with structural failure. Simplistically it comes down to physics / mechanics - there is a certain strength and a large enough force will break it - keep the force down and it won't break.
Not suggesting it broke but ...
Not suggesting it broke but ...
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Not built to commercial specifications - yes - but does that mean they are better or worse. My guess better - look at the environment they are designed to operate in. In all manner of things military sepcs are higher than civil specs.
Just my view
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Sad news, RIP Nick, condolences to your family and friends.
I had the pleasure of meeting Nick Costin in South Africa 2 weeks ago when he was here to visit Africa's largets air show. Nick also visited a number of operators, including Thunder City (a local civvie outfit that offers supersonic and subsonic flights to the public using Hunters, Buccaneers and Lightnings).
Naturally the Thunder City aircraft all have active and fully serviced bang seats. Their pax spend more time on bang seat training than in the air, but they have good record with over 1000 sorties (see their website ), so it can be done safely.
I hope some good can come out of this tragedy and also that someone with Nicks very deep passion runs with the jetwarbird torch.
I had the pleasure of meeting Nick Costin in South Africa 2 weeks ago when he was here to visit Africa's largets air show. Nick also visited a number of operators, including Thunder City (a local civvie outfit that offers supersonic and subsonic flights to the public using Hunters, Buccaneers and Lightnings).
Naturally the Thunder City aircraft all have active and fully serviced bang seats. Their pax spend more time on bang seat training than in the air, but they have good record with over 1000 sorties (see their website ), so it can be done safely.
I hope some good can come out of this tragedy and also that someone with Nicks very deep passion runs with the jetwarbird torch.
Last edited by 118.9; 9th Oct 2006 at 12:13. Reason: bracket missing
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"There are formula's based on those meter readings that establishes the fatigue life of the aircraft."
Those nice graphs you see of stress vs no of cycles for fatigue life have been somewhat massaged - a real graph looks not unlike a shotgun pattern. IIRC the usual fatigue life is the experimental life (from a test airframe) divided by 5 to account for this and there are still problems.
Those nice graphs you see of stress vs no of cycles for fatigue life have been somewhat massaged - a real graph looks not unlike a shotgun pattern. IIRC the usual fatigue life is the experimental life (from a test airframe) divided by 5 to account for this and there are still problems.