Fear of Pilots Shortage...
Join Date: May 2002
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Considering that Oz has been such a prolific exporter of pilots to the rest of the world, I fail to see how we are going to be an importer of pilots.
The rest of the world will be critically short of pilots before the Australian majors or regionals even have to advertise for them.
When they have to start advertising for them, we may, just may, see an improvement in our conditions of employment.
The rest of the world will be critically short of pilots before the Australian majors or regionals even have to advertise for them.
When they have to start advertising for them, we may, just may, see an improvement in our conditions of employment.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Dream of Flight
Pilot shortage.........Never in a million years.
If any one thinks there is ever going to be a shortage then you are very much mistaken.
The dream of flight is as old as mankind itself. The pilot recruiters know this fact only too well. The only labour shortage in the aviation (pilot) industry is that of experience. This is another fact that empoyers also know very well, as the cost of training puts a massive hole in their profits.
By the very fact that you are reading these culumns is testement that may years ago your dreams were stolen by the magic of flight (myself included). There is no hope for us. There are the lucky few that have managed to find a way to make enough money to fly as much as they like and not have to suffer working in the industry, John Travolta is a perfect example...even our own David Lowe....and not forgetting our dear Dick Smith. We are all probably secretly jealous of the above mentioned honorable gentlemen. They don't have to pilot aircraft themselves, they can afford to pay someone else to do it for them.....but do they?
What's "it" all about?..........The dream of flight!
I rest my case.
If any one thinks there is ever going to be a shortage then you are very much mistaken.
The dream of flight is as old as mankind itself. The pilot recruiters know this fact only too well. The only labour shortage in the aviation (pilot) industry is that of experience. This is another fact that empoyers also know very well, as the cost of training puts a massive hole in their profits.
By the very fact that you are reading these culumns is testement that may years ago your dreams were stolen by the magic of flight (myself included). There is no hope for us. There are the lucky few that have managed to find a way to make enough money to fly as much as they like and not have to suffer working in the industry, John Travolta is a perfect example...even our own David Lowe....and not forgetting our dear Dick Smith. We are all probably secretly jealous of the above mentioned honorable gentlemen. They don't have to pilot aircraft themselves, they can afford to pay someone else to do it for them.....but do they?
What's "it" all about?..........The dream of flight!
I rest my case.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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wondering
......................explain this to me like i'm a 6 yr old somebody!.............my work colleges (all ATPL drivers) are more than qualified to fill any right hand seat (at first) in any modern day heavy turbo jet but none of late have been able to get employment with any of the regionals or major players, some are even uni educated with various degrees in aviation etc............. yeah sure there is a shortage of pilots in Oz (there may well be in the future but not in our lifetime!) .......just let me know where this shortage exists & i'll tell at least half a doz guys here where to go for that so called pilot seat that can't be filled !
Capt Wally:-)
p.s.............and who are these guys currently employed by now?......ahhhh nobody of any importance obviously to the airlines but I think the Co. is called the RFDS !!!!........go figure !
Capt Wally:-)
p.s.............and who are these guys currently employed by now?......ahhhh nobody of any importance obviously to the airlines but I think the Co. is called the RFDS !!!!........go figure !
Join Date: May 2003
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After reading the thread on pay and conditions for a flight training school (
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244474 ) I'm starting to think that a pilot shortage would be the best thing that ever happened to this industry.
Bendo can you get me a job in the mines, I have some relevant experience.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244474 ) I'm starting to think that a pilot shortage would be the best thing that ever happened to this industry.
Bendo can you get me a job in the mines, I have some relevant experience.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Seriously...
...if you are interested in making a few bucks, PM me and I will point you in the right direction(s) for jobs in the NSW or QLD coalfields. We are crying out for arms and legs. A warning: once you start taking the cash, it is very very hard to go back!
I have often thought, as I watched the "old fashioned" miners dodge work like 14-year-olds dodging school
and stretch 30 minutes crib time out to 2 hours or more 
, that a bunch of under-employed, intelligent and motivated pilots might do well in the contracting game 
I have no knowledge or experience of hard rock (Gold etc) .. sorry. I am sure there are others out there who might help in that regard.
...if you are interested in making a few bucks, PM me and I will point you in the right direction(s) for jobs in the NSW or QLD coalfields. We are crying out for arms and legs. A warning: once you start taking the cash, it is very very hard to go back!
I have often thought, as I watched the "old fashioned" miners dodge work like 14-year-olds dodging school
and stretch 30 minutes crib time out to 2 hours or more , that a bunch of under-employed, intelligent and motivated pilots might do well in the contracting game I have no knowledge or experience of hard rock (Gold etc) .. sorry. I am sure there are others out there who might help in that regard.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Wondering........Capt W
It seems to me that the problem begins with the business plan of a low cost carrier.
Example business plan:-
Q? How much do the magority of australian citisens have to spend on air travel?
A. Very little
So. lets take very little and times it by the No. of seats on our aircraft.
Now. Take away the fuel costs.
And. not forgetting paying the share holders and board of directors.
Of whats remaining we have to pay for as little maintenance as we can get away with not forgetting compliance with the regs and a few other things.
Now. Lets see how much we have left to provide for pay, conditions and training for our employees....... This means that we can't employ any one that has experience because we have to pay them more.
How about this for the clincher! We actually save money and even make some money out of employing young inexperienced pilots that will pay for their own training.....I am a genius, I should be on the board of directors!
How am I going so far Capt W.
Example business plan:-
Q? How much do the magority of australian citisens have to spend on air travel?
A. Very little
So. lets take very little and times it by the No. of seats on our aircraft.
Now. Take away the fuel costs.
And. not forgetting paying the share holders and board of directors.
Of whats remaining we have to pay for as little maintenance as we can get away with not forgetting compliance with the regs and a few other things.
Now. Lets see how much we have left to provide for pay, conditions and training for our employees....... This means that we can't employ any one that has experience because we have to pay them more.
How about this for the clincher! We actually save money and even make some money out of employing young inexperienced pilots that will pay for their own training.....I am a genius, I should be on the board of directors!
How am I going so far Capt W.
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Look as Southwest. They only employ pilots how have college degrees for a reason. Their logic is to get the best people they can...
They have a proven profitable model over a much longer period of time than any other LCC, in the most competitive aviation market in the world. I think they might have a clue how to do it.
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N20. By experience I really meant flying experience.
My post was a generalisation, and was mainly aimed at why the abundance of mature and experienced pilots aren't being employed as FO's, RE:Capt Wallys post, againsed the claimed pilot shortage. Also the rediculous notion that pilots are forced to buy thier jobs.
Put Simply:- Why pay a highly experienced Capt to fly with a Highly experienced FO when you can employ a low experienced (low paid) FO?
But the point that experienced pilots usually save the company money is perfectly valid, and would definitely be part of my business plan should I one day make the board.
BTW. At the risk of hijaking the thread. I think that a college degree which has a pass mark of only 50% really doesn't hold up that well againsed an ATPL pass at 75%.
I suggest if you wish to reply to my last comment you may wish start a new thread
My post was a generalisation, and was mainly aimed at why the abundance of mature and experienced pilots aren't being employed as FO's, RE:Capt Wallys post, againsed the claimed pilot shortage. Also the rediculous notion that pilots are forced to buy thier jobs.
Put Simply:- Why pay a highly experienced Capt to fly with a Highly experienced FO when you can employ a low experienced (low paid) FO?
But the point that experienced pilots usually save the company money is perfectly valid, and would definitely be part of my business plan should I one day make the board.
BTW. At the risk of hijaking the thread. I think that a college degree which has a pass mark of only 50% really doesn't hold up that well againsed an ATPL pass at 75%.
I suggest if you wish to reply to my last comment you may wish start a new thread
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N20. By experience I really meant flying experience.
My post was a generalisation, and was mainly aimed at why the abundance of mature and experienced pilots aren't being employed as FO's, RE:Capt Wallys post, againsed the claimed pilot shortage. Also the rediculous notion that pilots are forced to buy thier jobs.
My post was a generalisation, and was mainly aimed at why the abundance of mature and experienced pilots aren't being employed as FO's, RE:Capt Wallys post, againsed the claimed pilot shortage. Also the rediculous notion that pilots are forced to buy thier jobs.
I wouldn't normally post on a thread such as this as I am not a professional pilot. However I am currently awaiting an offer from the RAAF to join up as a pilot for 12 odd years.
Currently I work in an extremely over paid office job for which the only joy is 1 day a month which is pay day.
I work something like 60 hours per week for a 6 fig salary but have no interest is wasting any more of my time purely for $$$.
If I do end up entering the RAAF for pilot training, it will not be so I can receive "free training", after all 12 years commitment is hardly free.
When my "time" is up I would sooner continue in defence force or use the skills I have learnt for a position within the defence industry.
I think I would rather that than be forced to be a FO with a freight company etc for about $100k per year.
Where I stand now I cant believe that there are so many willing to invest Hundreds of thousands in training where the starting salary is so low and the road to success so biased towards experience over individuals (from what I have learned).
Surely the problem is that everyone with 1500 hours and an ATPL is classed as equal when reality is far from the case. If I was forced to "wait in line" in my current career I would never have got to where I was and would have left a long time ago.
My question is, should there be more aptitude testing and team work/management assessment used before people are awarded commands and entry into the airlines?
I guess the main probem is that its about the only job people can "buy" themselves into.
Currently I work in an extremely over paid office job for which the only joy is 1 day a month which is pay day.
I work something like 60 hours per week for a 6 fig salary but have no interest is wasting any more of my time purely for $$$.
If I do end up entering the RAAF for pilot training, it will not be so I can receive "free training", after all 12 years commitment is hardly free.
When my "time" is up I would sooner continue in defence force or use the skills I have learnt for a position within the defence industry.
I think I would rather that than be forced to be a FO with a freight company etc for about $100k per year.
Where I stand now I cant believe that there are so many willing to invest Hundreds of thousands in training where the starting salary is so low and the road to success so biased towards experience over individuals (from what I have learned).
Surely the problem is that everyone with 1500 hours and an ATPL is classed as equal when reality is far from the case. If I was forced to "wait in line" in my current career I would never have got to where I was and would have left a long time ago.
My question is, should there be more aptitude testing and team work/management assessment used before people are awarded commands and entry into the airlines?
I guess the main probem is that its about the only job people can "buy" themselves into.
Last edited by Joker89; 22nd Sep 2006 at 07:04. Reason: spelling and structure
Joker89
This is exactly what they do in the airline I work for.
You can't buy yourself into the decent airlines. For them it's a matter of knowing your stuff, performing on the day and selling yourself at the interview, not how fat your wallet is.
My question is, should there be more aptitude testing and team work/management assessment used before people are awarded commands and entry into the airlines?
I guess the main probem is that its about the only job people can "buy" themselves into.
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The airlines seem to have a reasonable success rate with choosing their cadets, as do the miltary. Their selections systems could be implemented, by the privateer industry, but would they tell the truth?
Bottom line, its not in their financial interest to do so. Life would be so much easier for many if the harsh reality was faced before they spent dollar one.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Good to hear, Guess I have read to much of the J* whinging threads
I think very few in the "privateer" (non cadet/ military) training industry would tell someone that they lack "Right Stuff" to progress to an airline job. This poor sod represents cash flow for the aeroplane owner & training organisation as well as logbook experience for the instructor. He is to be milked for every penny (cynical I know).
The airlines seem to have a reasonable success rate with choosing their cadets, as do the miltary. Their selections systems could be implemented, by the privateer industry, but would they tell the truth?
Bottom line, its not in their financial interest to do so. Life would be so much easier for many if the harsh reality was faced before they spent dollar one.
Just my 2 cents worth.
The airlines seem to have a reasonable success rate with choosing their cadets, as do the miltary. Their selections systems could be implemented, by the privateer industry, but would they tell the truth?
Bottom line, its not in their financial interest to do so. Life would be so much easier for many if the harsh reality was faced before they spent dollar one.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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bottom line :-)
.............interesting how everybody here has different ideas as to what pilot shortage means & it's effects on an individual. Fair enough to all with opinions here & it's healthy to have a say & debate on all things unknown to us in the gray area of pilot shortages........but the bottom line to all of this (my opinion only) is the fact that whether yr a young pilot, old pilot or somene in between experienced or otherwise the airlines need pilots to sustain their buisness, growth is always there. Their future as in the share holders that make up a listed Co. need to constantly look at ways to reduce costs (QF's Jeff Dixon knows this very well as we all have heard of late) so in order to do just that they manipulate, trim back, the only variable thing that makes up the bottom line of any sound business plan ...................& that's the 'human' element of that bottom line, i.e.........wages & conditions etc, fuel, maintenance & other general running costs are mostly worked out (as accurately as possible) that make up the direct running costs of an aviation related business so hence we now have these days the requirment that most newby pilots pay for their own endorsements. There might seem to be a current pilot shortage but that just seems to be the case, we all educated pilots know better 'cause we've done the right thing, gone out & accumulated experience as was once the required way of doing things but now we find that the experience now works against most. These Co's can pick & choose whom they want, for now !......... these pages attest just to how many pilots are actually out there able to do their bidding for them at the pointy end of their planes just that these Co's want their cake & eat it to, (there is a wage structure in place with all these Co's, experience level or not) that comes at a cost, we shall see that cost imerge as we hear more & more in the cockpit recordings on todays modern jets..................."what's it doing now " !!!................experience is not negotiable.....
............Capt wally's personal views only guys/gals :-)
............Capt wally's personal views only guys/gals :-)
