Night VFR
Join Date: Oct 2005
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The worst fright I have had (yet) from flying was getting caught after dark shortly after getting my PPL years ago (non NVFR rated). Nothing can compare to the overwhelming sense of horror I felt when the darkness came down and realising you have made a bad mistake.
Luckily the place I was going to had an NDB & lights and the weather was fine. The experience hit home how dangerous VFR flying can really be.
I feel I was lucky to have made it out alive with my passengers & as a result enrolled in the NVFR rating the next day.
In my personal opinion there should be a night VFR componant with the PPL syllabus and holding the NVFR rating should be mandatory for the CPL if only to get you out of trouble.
Luckily the place I was going to had an NDB & lights and the weather was fine. The experience hit home how dangerous VFR flying can really be.
I feel I was lucky to have made it out alive with my passengers & as a result enrolled in the NVFR rating the next day.
In my personal opinion there should be a night VFR componant with the PPL syllabus and holding the NVFR rating should be mandatory for the CPL if only to get you out of trouble.
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by bushy
Ag pilots do sometimes do night flights, and most spectacular night spraying, at dot feet. But we must remember that ag pilots are highly skilled and highly specialised professionals who have developed their skills to a very high level.
Their are many things that ag pilots do sensibly and well that would be absolute stupidity for the rest of us to attempt.
NVFR has it's place,and can be very useful, even for cross country flying, but must be treated with caution. It is VISUAL flying, and requires VISIBILITY.
Their are many things that ag pilots do sensibly and well that would be absolute stupidity for the rest of us to attempt.
NVFR has it's place,and can be very useful, even for cross country flying, but must be treated with caution. It is VISUAL flying, and requires VISIBILITY.
takeoffs, ferrying, letdowns, and landings.
As with all flying it is a matter of practice and experience and a good cheif pilot will take account of all variables when allocating work for the night. After literally hundreds of night takeoffs it still takes a great deal of concentration on a black night. Some regular IF practice is a good Idea as it is not unknown to accidently fly into fog , low cloud or duststorms.
I recomend that all Night rated pilots regularly practice if they intend to use the rating keeping currency at a high level. Such is mandatory for night ag.
when letting down into a dark paddock I often spare a quick thought for the Navy Pilots recovering to the deck under war conditions. Another group of very skilled night operators.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I hold a MECIR , NVFR , and night AG ratings and funnily enough the only one I would feel comfortable using right now is the Night Ag .
The key word for me is "comfortable" to which I'd add currency.
I'm comfortable with night Ag in an aircraft on which I'm current and familiar but I haven't flown Night VFR since the rating test in the early nineties and my CIR is 2 years expired so wouldn't even consider entering IMC for one second and would probably sh!t myself if I did.
The line of using a NVMC rating to get home after last light simply doesn't work as you won't be legally current or competant unless you fly at night regularly.
As others have said it's the loss of emotional control that goes with unplanned night/IMC flight that often preceeds loss of aircraft control.
The key word for me is "comfortable" to which I'd add currency.
I'm comfortable with night Ag in an aircraft on which I'm current and familiar but I haven't flown Night VFR since the rating test in the early nineties and my CIR is 2 years expired so wouldn't even consider entering IMC for one second and would probably sh!t myself if I did.
The line of using a NVMC rating to get home after last light simply doesn't work as you won't be legally current or competant unless you fly at night regularly.
As others have said it's the loss of emotional control that goes with unplanned night/IMC flight that often preceeds loss of aircraft control.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Originally Posted by Chuck Ellsworth
What do you guys think about VFR over the top?
Mostly OK but I did give myself a few anxious moments - eg when a CAVOK forcast at EML turned out to be 8/8 to circuit height - fortunately I managed to find a hole about 30 nm west.
So I got a CIR - and that really didn't help - I was IFR equipped but I had trouble finding good IFR aircraft to private hire.
After I had the magnetic compass fail (oil leak), the AH fail (not vac pump) and a total electrical (alternator) all on the one flight while "on top" of 8/8, I gave all that **** away and found myself a nice, well equipped, multi-redundancy (?) (except for the donk) Bonanza.
So now I can sit back and say "DON'T DO IT - its not worth th risk"
I recently departed RK in 8/8 blue for TL, where the forcast was easy VFR. I was on an IFR plan and had requested the TL ILS for currency anyway. About half way along the flight (while "On Top") amended weather came through that indicated rapidly growing "poo" at TL. I broke out on the ILS about 300' about the minima after spending the previous 20 min in solid cloud and at times very heavy rain.
R
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Here in Canada they have a VFR on top rating.
Wonderful method for private pilots to get caught on top and not a fu.king clue of how to fly IFR.
But I understand the you Aussies have a few strange people in your CASA that dream up rules just for something to do except play with their computers at work.
Wonderful method for private pilots to get caught on top and not a fu.king clue of how to fly IFR.
But I understand the you Aussies have a few strange people in your CASA that dream up rules just for something to do except play with their computers at work.
NVFR will continue to be a killer in Aussie GA ops. The next accident is slightly over due. Factors gleaned from the above posts, and some others that may be relevant for thought:
1. The continual statement that NVFR ratings were designed for getting back or taking off just before or after last light. That statement has even been made in the Flight Safety magazine. The question then is: if the course outcome was simply that, why is there no restriction on using the rating in terms of time periods either side of civil twighlight? Is the course design inadequate for the outcomes, or are the rules not matching the intent of the course?
2. The rating is perpetual. There is never a need to demonstate profficiency once you jump through the hoops the first time. The Helicopter Association identified this as a major defficiency with the NVFR rating system with as yet no response from either the ATSB nor CASA. Note that the intention of the Part 133 reg development will see all ratings move into perpetuity in line with the USA - including the CIR.
3. IF versus VFR. Other countries mandate for NVFR a visual horizon and/or sufficient ground and celestial illumination to both control the aircraft and to navigate without reference to the instruments. If you want to fly with less than this - go get a CIR. On the other hand, as they are not supposed to do it without having ground visual, they do not generally have night LSALT, etc. It is acceptable in the USA to fly around at 300 ft AGL at night without a "NVFR Rating".
4. IF versus VFR in training. training around significant urban areas for the NVFR rating or during the qual test should be prohibited. The instrument competencies of the night qual should be reviewed and spelled out to include the requirement for "sole reference" to the flight instruments. There should be a requirement to conduct training in areas devoid of surrounding cultural lighting. In my opinion The gaining of a NVFR rating going from Bankstown to Camden to Richmond and back is not acceptable unless instrument training screens are used (not foggles).
5. The continued resistance of CASA to night vision technology will continue to force NVFR operations to operate blind.
6. Non IFR trained pilots having NVFR accidents involving Controlled Flight Into Terrain and disorientation are not unique to Australia.
How do we fix it?
1. The continual statement that NVFR ratings were designed for getting back or taking off just before or after last light. That statement has even been made in the Flight Safety magazine. The question then is: if the course outcome was simply that, why is there no restriction on using the rating in terms of time periods either side of civil twighlight? Is the course design inadequate for the outcomes, or are the rules not matching the intent of the course?
2. The rating is perpetual. There is never a need to demonstate profficiency once you jump through the hoops the first time. The Helicopter Association identified this as a major defficiency with the NVFR rating system with as yet no response from either the ATSB nor CASA. Note that the intention of the Part 133 reg development will see all ratings move into perpetuity in line with the USA - including the CIR.
3. IF versus VFR. Other countries mandate for NVFR a visual horizon and/or sufficient ground and celestial illumination to both control the aircraft and to navigate without reference to the instruments. If you want to fly with less than this - go get a CIR. On the other hand, as they are not supposed to do it without having ground visual, they do not generally have night LSALT, etc. It is acceptable in the USA to fly around at 300 ft AGL at night without a "NVFR Rating".
4. IF versus VFR in training. training around significant urban areas for the NVFR rating or during the qual test should be prohibited. The instrument competencies of the night qual should be reviewed and spelled out to include the requirement for "sole reference" to the flight instruments. There should be a requirement to conduct training in areas devoid of surrounding cultural lighting. In my opinion The gaining of a NVFR rating going from Bankstown to Camden to Richmond and back is not acceptable unless instrument training screens are used (not foggles).
5. The continued resistance of CASA to night vision technology will continue to force NVFR operations to operate blind.
6. Non IFR trained pilots having NVFR accidents involving Controlled Flight Into Terrain and disorientation are not unique to Australia.
How do we fix it?
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Why Limit Yourself
I don't understand why anyone would want to limit themselves by doing away with night vfr. With a good preflight weather breifing, flight planning etc it is a great experience. Did a lot of it night cross country in the us with just a map and a compass. Luckily I was blessed with good weather. Did some Ifr I follow roads even had my landing and taxi lights burn out. That brought up the blood pressure a little Your eye's adjust and non eventfull landing. With todays technology --full color moving map gps with terain avoidance built What do you have to worry about? Government is the same worldwide once they take something away it's almost impossible to get it back. By the way the engine really does always seem to run rough when your over open ocean at night vfr without sight of land. Didn't Lindbergh have to fly a little bit vfr at night. No radios No vor adf gps atc attitude iindicator or forward vis. Needle ball airspeed, Needle ball airspeed. Keep the greasy side down
Last edited by emailme; 29th Aug 2006 at 21:03.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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....geez Louise!
There's nothing like mooching around VFR coastal on a full moon night...magic in the right weather....
Nothing like the flexibility in the right weather of tracking overhead the field at Dead-flatsville (not at Bottom-of-the-deep-valleysville!) at LSALT and circling down rather than fly another 15NM in a 120KTAS chugger to the other side to join the only GPSRNAV instrument approach......
A safe tool in the VFR and IFR pilot's pocket if used properly, and fun at times, too.
The biggest NVFR danger is straight in approaches to "black holes" - fly at least 3 legs of the circuit at such places (if not at completion of an instrument approach with PAPI/T-VASI available).
There's nothing like mooching around VFR coastal on a full moon night...magic in the right weather....
Nothing like the flexibility in the right weather of tracking overhead the field at Dead-flatsville (not at Bottom-of-the-deep-valleysville!) at LSALT and circling down rather than fly another 15NM in a 120KTAS chugger to the other side to join the only GPSRNAV instrument approach......
A safe tool in the VFR and IFR pilot's pocket if used properly, and fun at times, too.
The biggest NVFR danger is straight in approaches to "black holes" - fly at least 3 legs of the circuit at such places (if not at completion of an instrument approach with PAPI/T-VASI available).
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Vasi
I forgot about the north cape night approach. 90 degs to the river right turn 180 degs then up over the powerlines on final to 180 1100 ft of beautiful grass strip, look for the homeade bicycle reflector vasi-set up your approach just be carefull of foggy nights. Even then if it's thin just mow the fog with your nice warm engine just stiring up things a little for the circling approach. good times
Last edited by emailme; 29th Aug 2006 at 21:04.
