POB Onboad Requirement ?!?!
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POB Onboad Requirement ?!?!
Heyho,
A mate of mine who's skilled in asking notoriously complicated questions raised a question on the requirement to mention the POB on the initial contact with the Approach.
I've been through the books and can't find it but have been doing it over the years....
Perhaps, I should look more closer at the books and may have missed it in the first round, and am taking the easy way out by raising it here
Any comments on this requirement much appreciated
Smoothie
A mate of mine who's skilled in asking notoriously complicated questions raised a question on the requirement to mention the POB on the initial contact with the Approach.
I've been through the books and can't find it but have been doing it over the years....
Perhaps, I should look more closer at the books and may have missed it in the first round, and am taking the easy way out by raising it here
Any comments on this requirement much appreciated
Smoothie
I wouldn't complain about having to let ATC know. I suspect it's so they know how many people to look for when something goes wrong.
That being said though, I've done the same flight probably 50 times to one location and probably only been asked for POB perhaps 50% of the time.
I have noticed that if I'm conducting a significant over-water flight or DRA they seem to always religiously ask.
That being said though, I've done the same flight probably 50 times to one location and probably only been asked for POB perhaps 50% of the time.
I have noticed that if I'm conducting a significant over-water flight or DRA they seem to always religiously ask.
I was referring to a Military Control zone with my comments about 50% of the time; however Mel Centre does ask for DRA, short over water-routes and over-water skeds.
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The answer is all flights except scheduled RPT should advise POB on taxi, and also when entering CTA from OCTA (if you stay in CTA, you generally don't need to advise POB because it can be obtained from the previous sector).
The reference is AIP ENR 1.1 4.3.2
Military don't have different rules to the civvies - we all play by the same rules. We just interpret them differently!
My thoughts are all aircraft should advise POB - we had a situation once where there was a MAYDAY called by a metro (smoke in cockpit) and the POB given by the company did not match the POB advised by the pilot. It was scheduled RPT.
The reference is AIP ENR 1.1 4.3.2
Military don't have different rules to the civvies - we all play by the same rules. We just interpret them differently!
My thoughts are all aircraft should advise POB - we had a situation once where there was a MAYDAY called by a metro (smoke in cockpit) and the POB given by the company did not match the POB advised by the pilot. It was scheduled RPT.
First time I heard "souls on board" was from Doug McGraw, an Anglican priest who flew for Talair in Papua New Guinea. I thought he invented the term.
The reason ATC require POB probably comes from an accident in Ireland a number of years ago when a Cessna 172 crashed in a cemetary. I believe in the following days they receovered over 300 bodies.
The reason ATC require POB probably comes from an accident in Ireland a number of years ago when a Cessna 172 crashed in a cemetary. I believe in the following days they receovered over 300 bodies.
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You SOB
Queeg. SOB is exactly that Souls, or living thinking People.
POB is persons on board, living or DEAD.
The Yanks use SOB as the standard and will add on for bodies.
ie 34 SOB and 2 POB.
Once herad a "Nightingale", US Navy DC-9 medical aircraft give a call similar to this.
As for the POB thing, it IS a Milirtary thing, if you don't belive me check out the RAPAC minutes for many an argument on this subject.
PS Hay Bob if it was one of you C172's that POB sounds about right.
Richo
POB is persons on board, living or DEAD.
The Yanks use SOB as the standard and will add on for bodies.
ie 34 SOB and 2 POB.
Once herad a "Nightingale", US Navy DC-9 medical aircraft give a call similar to this.
As for the POB thing, it IS a Milirtary thing, if you don't belive me check out the RAPAC minutes for many an argument on this subject.
PS Hay Bob if it was one of you C172's that POB sounds about right.
Richo
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The requirement to tell the tower on arriaval i understand came into force after an Air NZ Fokker crashed into the Manukau some years back. There was some discripency as to how many bodies needed to be recovered (from poor memory the flight plan showed just the crew, but an engineer jumped on at the last minute; however i stand to be corrected).
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AIP ENR 1.1-8 para 4.3.2 "For IFR flights operating other than RPT, the pilot in command must provide ATC with the number of POB when requesting taxi clearance" (this is referring to controlled aerodromes).
AIP ENR 1.1-78 para 58.2 refers to Class G airspace ops and includes the requirement for IFR flights to report POB (for flights other than RPT) with the taxiing report.
As stated by others previously, Souls on Board is generally used by american drivers or by others when identifying deceased persons.
P-W
AIP ENR 1.1-78 para 58.2 refers to Class G airspace ops and includes the requirement for IFR flights to report POB (for flights other than RPT) with the taxiing report.
As stated by others previously, Souls on Board is generally used by american drivers or by others when identifying deceased persons.
P-W
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If issuing a clearance where a flight plan has not been previously submitted (more and more common), I will ask for POB for VFR flights.
The books are one thing - the duty of care issue is quite another.
The books are one thing - the duty of care issue is quite another.
When you live....
On the same subject, I have often been asked for POB after cancelling IFR and lodging a VFR SARTIME.
I have assumed that this is just laziness by the controller? Or are you concerned I may have picked someone up along the way? <g>
UTR
I have assumed that this is just laziness by the controller? Or are you concerned I may have picked someone up along the way? <g>
UTR
Is that all!
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What if you don't believe in a soul?
I'm surprised the yank system hasn't been hauled into the courts on some kind of religious discrimination beat-up. I might try it on myself. Might be able to retire early.
Anyway, for me, giving a "souls on board" count would be mis-leading info because most of the punters I haul around are godless and soul-less. When asked for "souls" I just tell them the POB.
I'm surprised the yank system hasn't been hauled into the courts on some kind of religious discrimination beat-up. I might try it on myself. Might be able to retire early.
Anyway, for me, giving a "souls on board" count would be mis-leading info because most of the punters I haul around are godless and soul-less. When asked for "souls" I just tell them the POB.