Single Engine Endorsement Approval.
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Single Engine Endorsement Approval.
I have looked at the CAO’s however it does not explictly say that a Grade3 or Grade 2 instructor can endorse pilots on single engine aircraft. All it does say is that they can carry out the training for an endorsement if they themselves are endorsed on type. Could somebody in the know advise. My CFI says only a Grade1 can do the endorsement. Ie. sign out the pilot.
Doesn’t say that in the CAO’s.
Doesn’t say that in the CAO’s.
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My licence says "S/E aircraft up to 5700KG" - which I have always taken to mean I can (and I do) fly any S/E aircraft up to 5700kg (subject to CSU/Retractable Undercarriage etc).
That would make any S/E endorsement unneccessary.
That would make any S/E endorsement unneccessary.
There is no such thing as a single engine endorsement, apart from the one you obtain when you do your GFPT. Which is, as above, S/E Aircraft below 5700Kg's, provided you hold the other nessecary endorsements required to fly the aircraft (eg. CSU, Retrac). So I can go and jump into any old s/e aircraft, that I've never flown before, that doesn't require any specific endorsement that I don't already have, and fly it.
Turbines are an exception though.
morno
Turbines are an exception though.
morno
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My CFI says only a Grade1 can do the endorsement
I's this the level of our CFIs Know how.From my understanding (and it has been a long time since I looked), even our 'ol mate Sunfish armed with his PPL, Retract and CSU rating can teach someone the finer points of a PA28R or C172
.And not even being shown by a PPL holder is required. Maybe your school will only allow a Grade 1 to check.
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Possibly an insurance requirement for that particular company - whilst there may be no legal requirement in the CAO'S for a grade 1 check, their insurance provider may have stipulated as part of the insurance policy to have a grade 1 check ride before renting out an aircraft.
Or it could be part of their op's manual as part of the flying schools sign out process for students in which case it would be as legally binding as the CAO's etc.
O&G
Or it could be part of their op's manual as part of the flying schools sign out process for students in which case it would be as legally binding as the CAO's etc.
O&G
Last edited by Over and gout; 24th Jul 2006 at 04:13.
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Confirm.
So if there is no limit in the Ops Manual preventing me from doing so . I as a Grade2. can send a person solo and endorse his log book and if another pilot comes along to fly lets say an Arrow. Because I am Arrow endorsed I can train him/her and endorse his log book. No need for a Gr.1 signature??
When you live....
Novicef, methinks you're still not quite looking at this properly.
A PPL/CPL comes with regulatory approval to fly any single engine a/c up to 5700kg that doesn't have complex features (CSU, retract, turbine to name a few). There is no requirement to endorse in a logbook each additional type - I could legally get into, say, a TB10 never having flown one before and fly it. Likewise, as I have a CSU and retract endorsements, I could legally get into a Bonanza and fly it.
However, you (and I) need to get this aircraft from somewhere and presumably you would want it insured. The owner and the insurance company will then specify what experience and what oversight you need before you can fly that specific aircraft. They might require a grade one or cfi signoff. They may require a systems 'exam'. They might not require anything. For your school, the Ops manual may (should) be the document for spelling this out but it may not be either. Remember the Ops manual is a company specific document that we don't have access to - you will have to read it yourself and make sure your company doesn't have any other conditions (which it sounds like your CFI may).
From CASAs perspective, there is no requirement for anyone to sign off anything as long as the prospective pilot has any necessary endorsements (CSU, retract etc) - and 'single engine' endorsement does not exist in the context you are saying - as Morno says, once you get your GFPT you're set from then on.
Try and separate the CAOs from your company/owners/insurance company requirements and you'll be able to work out where the objection your CFI has comes from.
UTR
PS To answer your specific question in your last post, you can send someone solo as a Gr 2 but you can't endorse their logbook because no endorsement is needed (post GFPT person assumed). Likewise, you can train someone in an Arrow (who has a CSU/retract) and give them the keys but again you can't endorse their logbook with 'Arrow' because it's not an endorsement, just like you don't have an 'Arrow' endorsement - you have your SE up to 5700kg endoresment and a CSU endorsment and a retract endorsement.
PPS Am I the only one who is suprised you don't know this?
A PPL/CPL comes with regulatory approval to fly any single engine a/c up to 5700kg that doesn't have complex features (CSU, retract, turbine to name a few). There is no requirement to endorse in a logbook each additional type - I could legally get into, say, a TB10 never having flown one before and fly it. Likewise, as I have a CSU and retract endorsements, I could legally get into a Bonanza and fly it.
However, you (and I) need to get this aircraft from somewhere and presumably you would want it insured. The owner and the insurance company will then specify what experience and what oversight you need before you can fly that specific aircraft. They might require a grade one or cfi signoff. They may require a systems 'exam'. They might not require anything. For your school, the Ops manual may (should) be the document for spelling this out but it may not be either. Remember the Ops manual is a company specific document that we don't have access to - you will have to read it yourself and make sure your company doesn't have any other conditions (which it sounds like your CFI may).
From CASAs perspective, there is no requirement for anyone to sign off anything as long as the prospective pilot has any necessary endorsements (CSU, retract etc) - and 'single engine' endorsement does not exist in the context you are saying - as Morno says, once you get your GFPT you're set from then on.
Try and separate the CAOs from your company/owners/insurance company requirements and you'll be able to work out where the objection your CFI has comes from.
UTR
PS To answer your specific question in your last post, you can send someone solo as a Gr 2 but you can't endorse their logbook because no endorsement is needed (post GFPT person assumed). Likewise, you can train someone in an Arrow (who has a CSU/retract) and give them the keys but again you can't endorse their logbook with 'Arrow' because it's not an endorsement, just like you don't have an 'Arrow' endorsement - you have your SE up to 5700kg endoresment and a CSU endorsment and a retract endorsement.
PPS Am I the only one who is suprised you don't know this?
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novicef
With due respect, I think you may be getting a little confused
.
Yes. As a Grade 2, you can send people first solo, but from memory this is not 'endorsed' in the Logbook.
You are not "Arrow endorsed". You are endorsed to fly a single engine aeroplane under 5,700kg (and probably fixed pitch and fixed undercarriage. Depending on what a/c you did your GFPT in).
You then gain a CSU and/or Retract design feature (usually written up in the page of Endorsment on A/C type, Classes and Design Feature, if you have the ATC logbook). I believe design features need to be taught buy a qualified Flight Instructor, but without the appropriate docs in front of me, don't take this as gosspil just yet (can anyone confirm)
Well except for what is mentioned above, Yes you can, and No you don't 
As already mentioned by Over and gout, any restrictions would be company specific and more then likely an insurance issue, where the policy may state something along the lines of any person hiring an a/c from the school, must first be checked by a Grade 1 instructor.
If this post is due to you doing an upgrade, then I would suggest you know both the CASA and company requirements.
eg.
ATO: As a Grade Two, are you permitted to check somebody on an Arrow
novicef: Yes, but as an employee of XYZ Aviation, it is company policy that G1s only, are permitted to carry out such checks.
ATO: Good, but I don't really care about company proceedures. I'm looking only at what is required by CASA to certify you as a Grade 2.
(and know you know where you stand as far as the
ATO is concerned)
Hope this helps
Mono
With due respect, I think you may be getting a little confused
.
I as a Grade2. can send a person solo and endorse his log book
Because I am Arrow endorsed I can train him/her and endorse his log book
You then gain a CSU and/or Retract design feature (usually written up in the page of Endorsment on A/C type, Classes and Design Feature, if you have the ATC logbook). I believe design features need to be taught buy a qualified Flight Instructor, but without the appropriate docs in front of me, don't take this as gosspil just yet (can anyone confirm)
Because I am Arrow endorsed I can train him/her and endorse his log book. No need for a Gr.1 signature??
As already mentioned by Over and gout, any restrictions would be company specific and more then likely an insurance issue, where the policy may state something along the lines of any person hiring an a/c from the school, must first be checked by a Grade 1 instructor.
If this post is due to you doing an upgrade, then I would suggest you know both the CASA and company requirements.
eg.
ATO: As a Grade Two, are you permitted to check somebody on an Arrow
novicef: Yes, but as an employee of XYZ Aviation, it is company policy that G1s only, are permitted to carry out such checks.
ATO: Good, but I don't really care about company proceedures. I'm looking only at what is required by CASA to certify you as a Grade 2.
(and know you know where you stand as far as the
ATO is concerned)
Hope this helps
Mono
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PPS Am I the only one who is suprised you don't know this?
I shake my head when flying instructors use the term 'Single Engine Endorsement', hands up all those who have flown a single they are not endorsed on!
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Yes lots of schools use the old "you need to be endorsed on that aircraft". To which I normally reply "Oh I am endorsed on it as it fits into the SE <5700 kg class and I have a TW/CSU/Retract Endorsement!" Oh BTW I am happy to do a company check flight thourgh"
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Originally Posted by Howard Hughes
Nope...
I shake my head when flying instructors use the term 'Single Engine Endorsement', hands up all those who have flown a single they are not endorsed on!
I shake my head when flying instructors use the term 'Single Engine Endorsement', hands up all those who have flown a single they are not endorsed on!
1. Types of aeroplanes holder is authorised to pilot:-
CESSNA; PA28; C180/182/185; FR172/C177B; PA28 ARROW ...
There was a time when instructors did use the term 'Single Engine Endorsement'.
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This ain't 1972, I too have a single engine endorsement in my logbook, but it ain't 1982 either...
CSU/Retrac requires a sticky label, so ATO or CASA FOI.
SEA <5700kg is GFPT (again stickl label so ATO/FOI). As has been pointed out most companies (read insurance) require a CHECK flight. Generally you might get a CHECK FLIGHT stamp or something along those lines.
SEA <5700kg is GFPT (again stickl label so ATO/FOI). As has been pointed out most companies (read insurance) require a CHECK flight. Generally you might get a CHECK FLIGHT stamp or something along those lines.
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Awol57
Thanks. If anything at least my question has been answered 
I believe design features need to be taught buy a qualified Flight Instructor, but without the appropriate docs in front of me, don't take this as gosspil just yet (can anyone confirm)
Monopole, to explain a bit further. I do believe for the sticky label to be issued for CSU/Retrac the training needs to be given by a QFI. I believe it is GII or higher can recommend to the ATO that the sticky label be given. No check flight is required for that sticker, just the recommendation of the instructor.
The GFPT obviously requires a flight test, but any other flight does not unless its for insurance reasons.
Hopefully I am not telling porky pies, just did this the other day so fingers crossed eh
EDIT: Just had a look in CAO's found this as a type endorsement (as has been mentioned previously)
SINGLE ENGINE
AEROPLANES NOT
EXCEEDING
5 700KG MAXIMUM
TAKE-OFF WEIGHT
All single engine aeroplanes not exceeding 5 700 kg
maximum take-off weight, except for those listed
elsewhere in an Appendix to this Order as requiring a
specific type or class endorsement
For special design features, it just states you must have recieved training, but does not specify who from. I could also find no reference in the instructor area, so not sure in that regard.
There were a few areas where it said training from a Flying Instructor, or approved person, but could find no reference similar to that in the design features area.
The GFPT obviously requires a flight test, but any other flight does not unless its for insurance reasons.
Hopefully I am not telling porky pies, just did this the other day so fingers crossed eh
EDIT: Just had a look in CAO's found this as a type endorsement (as has been mentioned previously)
SINGLE ENGINE
AEROPLANES NOT
EXCEEDING
5 700KG MAXIMUM
TAKE-OFF WEIGHT
All single engine aeroplanes not exceeding 5 700 kg
maximum take-off weight, except for those listed
elsewhere in an Appendix to this Order as requiring a
specific type or class endorsement
For special design features, it just states you must have recieved training, but does not specify who from. I could also find no reference in the instructor area, so not sure in that regard.
There were a few areas where it said training from a Flying Instructor, or approved person, but could find no reference similar to that in the design features area.
Last edited by Awol57; 24th Jul 2006 at 14:51.
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Paperwork.
Quote:
My licence says "S/E aircraft up to 5700KG" - which I have always taken to mean I can (and I do) fly any S/E aircraft up to 5700kg (subject to CSU/Retractable Undercarriage etc).
That would make any S/E endorsement unneccessary.
Quote:
There is no such thing as a single engine endorsement, apart from the one you obtain when you do your GFPT. Which is, as above, S/E Aircraft below 5700Kg's, provided you hold the other nessecary endorsements required to fly the aircraft (eg. CSU, Retrac). So I can go and jump into any old s/e aircraft, that I've never flown before, that doesn't require any specific endorsement that I don't already have, and fly it.
I know about the "S/E aircraft up to 5700KG. All I want to know is, can a Gr.2. stamp and sign a students log book after a Gr.2 instructor sends that student solo. In addition when that student then upgrades the type of aircraft he can fly ie. CSU/Retractable can the Gr.2 again sign and stamp his log book. I am asking about the paper work nothing else. Also this question is directed at CAO’s that may or may not allow this not any Ops Manual that may override it.
Quote:
I do believe for the sticky label to be issued for CSU/Retrac the training needs to be given by a QFI. I believe it is GII or higher can recommend to the ATO that the sticky label be given. No check flight is required for that sticker, just the recommendation of the instructor.
If somebody does know the answer to this I would appreciate a response.
My licence says "S/E aircraft up to 5700KG" - which I have always taken to mean I can (and I do) fly any S/E aircraft up to 5700kg (subject to CSU/Retractable Undercarriage etc).
That would make any S/E endorsement unneccessary.
Quote:
There is no such thing as a single engine endorsement, apart from the one you obtain when you do your GFPT. Which is, as above, S/E Aircraft below 5700Kg's, provided you hold the other nessecary endorsements required to fly the aircraft (eg. CSU, Retrac). So I can go and jump into any old s/e aircraft, that I've never flown before, that doesn't require any specific endorsement that I don't already have, and fly it.
I know about the "S/E aircraft up to 5700KG. All I want to know is, can a Gr.2. stamp and sign a students log book after a Gr.2 instructor sends that student solo. In addition when that student then upgrades the type of aircraft he can fly ie. CSU/Retractable can the Gr.2 again sign and stamp his log book. I am asking about the paper work nothing else. Also this question is directed at CAO’s that may or may not allow this not any Ops Manual that may override it.
Quote:
I do believe for the sticky label to be issued for CSU/Retrac the training needs to be given by a QFI. I believe it is GII or higher can recommend to the ATO that the sticky label be given. No check flight is required for that sticker, just the recommendation of the instructor.
If somebody does know the answer to this I would appreciate a response.
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novicef
Your original post does not actually mention anything about solo, however subsequent post do and they seem to be infering to 'First Solo'.
Could you please clarify this so everyone could possibly jump onto the same wave lenght as you
Either way, as a G2 you are permitted to stamp and sign a students logbook for First Solo as per CAO 40.1.7 section 9 onwards. The little stamp that you get to sign as a G2 is in CAO 40.1.7 Appendix III
I could not find anything that states whom may sign off on 'Special Design Features'.
Besides, I got side tracked on something I found more interesting while looking in the CAOs for your answer
Maybe you should pick up your copy again and 'ave another look. It will either be in there, or you are trying to look too deep into something that is not there
Mono
Your original post does not actually mention anything about solo, however subsequent post do and they seem to be infering to 'First Solo'.
Could you please clarify this so everyone could possibly jump onto the same wave lenght as you
Either way, as a G2 you are permitted to stamp and sign a students logbook for First Solo as per CAO 40.1.7 section 9 onwards. The little stamp that you get to sign as a G2 is in CAO 40.1.7 Appendix III
I could not find anything that states whom may sign off on 'Special Design Features'.
Besides, I got side tracked on something I found more interesting while looking in the CAOs for your answer
Maybe you should pick up your copy again and 'ave another look. It will either be in there, or you are trying to look too deep into something that is not there
Mono
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My licence says "S/E aircraft up to 5700KG" - which I have always taken to mean I can (and I do) fly any S/E aircraft up to 5700kg (subject to CSU/Retractable Undercarriage etc).
That would make any S/E endorsement unneccessary.
That would make any S/E endorsement unneccessary.
Must admit it does draw a strange expression when you ask for a S/E up to 5700kg endorsement at a flying school
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You guys sure know how to complicate things.
1. Aeroplane conversion training means training undertaken by the holder of an aeroplane pilot licence for the purpose of qualifying for an aircraft endorsement for an aeroplane.
2. Aircraft endorsement means (a) type; (b) class; (c) special design feature … endorsement.
3. To receive conversion or endorsement training the person must be the holder of a student pilot licence, an aeroplane pilot licence, a special pilot licence etc, undertake prescribed training (theory and flight), satisfy the person who conducted the training that he/she can safely fly that aeroplane.
4. CASA may approve a person who holds an aeroplane pilot licence to give aeroplane conversion training.
5. CASA may permit the holder of a pilot licence, a special pilot licence or a certificate of validation to fly a single place aircraft as pilot in command and without holding an aircraft endorsement for the aircraft if the flight is for the purpose of satisfying the requirements for the issue of an aircraft endorsement for the aircraft.
6. Commercial purposes are prescribed in the regulations but exclude conversion training. So conversion / endorsement training may be considered as a PVT operation and may be conducted by a person other than an instructor if approved by CASA.
7. CASA may give directions in CAO’s setting out the requirements for issue of an aircraft endorsement.
8. CASA must issue an aircraft endorsement to the holder of a flight crew licence etc by entry in the holder’s personal log book if the holder satisfies the requirements for the issue of the endorsement.
9. The Director may, in writing, delegate to a person all or any of CASA’s powers and functions under CAR. (ATO for example).
Student pilots bear special mention.
10. Pre-GFPT an authorised flight instructor may permit a student pilot to fly an aircraft as pilot in command only if the aircraft is of a type in which the student received flying training and the student can safely fly as pilot in command. (This does not constitute an endorsement).
11. Post-GFPT the student holds a type endorsement or a class endorsement for the aircraft and if the aircraft has a special design feature the student holds a special design feature endorsement for the aircraft.
12. An SPL authorises the holder to fly a flying training aircraft as pilot in command provided an authorised flight instructor gives permission and, the student conducts flight in accordance with that permission.
13. The holder of a G2 or higher FSI may check and send students solo in all sequences required for the issue of a PPL or CPL.
1. Aeroplane conversion training means training undertaken by the holder of an aeroplane pilot licence for the purpose of qualifying for an aircraft endorsement for an aeroplane.
2. Aircraft endorsement means (a) type; (b) class; (c) special design feature … endorsement.
3. To receive conversion or endorsement training the person must be the holder of a student pilot licence, an aeroplane pilot licence, a special pilot licence etc, undertake prescribed training (theory and flight), satisfy the person who conducted the training that he/she can safely fly that aeroplane.
4. CASA may approve a person who holds an aeroplane pilot licence to give aeroplane conversion training.
5. CASA may permit the holder of a pilot licence, a special pilot licence or a certificate of validation to fly a single place aircraft as pilot in command and without holding an aircraft endorsement for the aircraft if the flight is for the purpose of satisfying the requirements for the issue of an aircraft endorsement for the aircraft.
6. Commercial purposes are prescribed in the regulations but exclude conversion training. So conversion / endorsement training may be considered as a PVT operation and may be conducted by a person other than an instructor if approved by CASA.
7. CASA may give directions in CAO’s setting out the requirements for issue of an aircraft endorsement.
8. CASA must issue an aircraft endorsement to the holder of a flight crew licence etc by entry in the holder’s personal log book if the holder satisfies the requirements for the issue of the endorsement.
9. The Director may, in writing, delegate to a person all or any of CASA’s powers and functions under CAR. (ATO for example).
Student pilots bear special mention.
10. Pre-GFPT an authorised flight instructor may permit a student pilot to fly an aircraft as pilot in command only if the aircraft is of a type in which the student received flying training and the student can safely fly as pilot in command. (This does not constitute an endorsement).
11. Post-GFPT the student holds a type endorsement or a class endorsement for the aircraft and if the aircraft has a special design feature the student holds a special design feature endorsement for the aircraft.
12. An SPL authorises the holder to fly a flying training aircraft as pilot in command provided an authorised flight instructor gives permission and, the student conducts flight in accordance with that permission.
13. The holder of a G2 or higher FSI may check and send students solo in all sequences required for the issue of a PPL or CPL.