Forget legal, how about moral?
Yeh in my day I had to do night freight between two capital cities in a clapped out 402 no navaids that worked no AH just a compass and bat and ball
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Hard to argue against Centaurus even though Lindbergh seemed to manage OK for his trip. Tins obviously up to speed on partial panel - all the more reason to fly with him then.
Grandpa Aerotart
Interesting topic this.
In my yoof we all flew SP, IFR, RPT sans autopilot...as a matter of course...just the way it was. Islanders, barons, C402a, Twotters and Bandits.
Until promotion onto the Bandit, also flown SP, at around 4500 TT I had never seen more than one aeroplane, it happened to be an Islander, that had an autopilot and had never seen a serviceable radar. In the Bandits they worked most of the time...non the less we did a LOT of hours each year without them working.
In my first 7000 hrs I would guess less than 10% was sitting with an autopilot engaged. In 6000 hrs since I would be amazed if 10% has not been with a/p engaged...in fact I would fly 8-10 sectors a month these days. 4-5 as PF and totaling about 70 hrs a month mostly longhaul but with some short flights (less than 5 hrs) occasionally. Total handflying/sector is less than 5 minutes...probably around 2-3 minutes/sector.
I remember in GA we got very good at accurate handflying...now I try to ensure I get in our company sim twice in the weeks leading up to recurrent and I do nothing but V1 cuts and handflown assy circuits to get my eyeballs up to speed again. Then I get in the sim and the a/p goes in at first pitch change, about 700 agl, and stays in until 2-300 agl on finals.
What is this ramble about?
I am not aware of any of my GA peers at the time thinking this was all that unusual...I don't remember feeling put out or set upon by my employer.
While our aircraft didn't have a/p and radar they were otherwise well maintained generally speaking...this varied with some years being not so great.
It was in the tropics with very high LSALTs and bad weather during part of nearly every day...unlike Oz where bad weather is the exception rather than the rule. Of course in the Islanders and twotters we mostly flew very short sectors but we also flew some really long ones...especially in the 402s and bandits.
I think I benefited greatly from that experience...isn't perspective strange
I think in all that time I spent less than 30 minutes in IMC and real limited panel after AI failures...actually if I never experience that again that would be ok with me.
In my yoof we all flew SP, IFR, RPT sans autopilot...as a matter of course...just the way it was. Islanders, barons, C402a, Twotters and Bandits.
Until promotion onto the Bandit, also flown SP, at around 4500 TT I had never seen more than one aeroplane, it happened to be an Islander, that had an autopilot and had never seen a serviceable radar. In the Bandits they worked most of the time...non the less we did a LOT of hours each year without them working.
In my first 7000 hrs I would guess less than 10% was sitting with an autopilot engaged. In 6000 hrs since I would be amazed if 10% has not been with a/p engaged...in fact I would fly 8-10 sectors a month these days. 4-5 as PF and totaling about 70 hrs a month mostly longhaul but with some short flights (less than 5 hrs) occasionally. Total handflying/sector is less than 5 minutes...probably around 2-3 minutes/sector.
I remember in GA we got very good at accurate handflying...now I try to ensure I get in our company sim twice in the weeks leading up to recurrent and I do nothing but V1 cuts and handflown assy circuits to get my eyeballs up to speed again. Then I get in the sim and the a/p goes in at first pitch change, about 700 agl, and stays in until 2-300 agl on finals.
What is this ramble about?
I am not aware of any of my GA peers at the time thinking this was all that unusual...I don't remember feeling put out or set upon by my employer.
While our aircraft didn't have a/p and radar they were otherwise well maintained generally speaking...this varied with some years being not so great.
It was in the tropics with very high LSALTs and bad weather during part of nearly every day...unlike Oz where bad weather is the exception rather than the rule. Of course in the Islanders and twotters we mostly flew very short sectors but we also flew some really long ones...especially in the 402s and bandits.
I think I benefited greatly from that experience...isn't perspective strange
I think in all that time I spent less than 30 minutes in IMC and real limited panel after AI failures...actually if I never experience that again that would be ok with me.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 17th Jul 2006 at 14:36.
Silly Old Git
Luckily Chuck I think Im right in saying you never seemed to have been exposed to the delights of GA in OZ.(and I can only speak of the 70's)
While the PNG stuff got hairy at times at least as you say we were given a chance with the kit being in reasonable condition for the job ahead.
While the PNG stuff got hairy at times at least as you say we were given a chance with the kit being in reasonable condition for the job ahead.
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tinpis
Chuckles me old, with any luck the days of yore of which tinny speaks are over.
I can assure you his experiences were not isolated and were he and I to put our minds to it could regale you with chapter and verse.
How about adding a "bone dry" compass to tinnys list, yep NO fluid in it and having a week before come out of a Major Inspection with a sparkling clean fresh M/R. AND that was only one of the dozen or so items "found". AND after shutdown you could hear the gyros winding down from the wingtip with the door shut.
How do you navigate you ask? well we are not going all that far and you can set your DG on R/Way heading cant you.
And people complained about CAA/CASA being Nazis.
Chuckles me old, with any luck the days of yore of which tinny speaks are over.
I can assure you his experiences were not isolated and were he and I to put our minds to it could regale you with chapter and verse.
How about adding a "bone dry" compass to tinnys list, yep NO fluid in it and having a week before come out of a Major Inspection with a sparkling clean fresh M/R. AND that was only one of the dozen or so items "found". AND after shutdown you could hear the gyros winding down from the wingtip with the door shut.
How do you navigate you ask? well we are not going all that far and you can set your DG on R/Way heading cant you.
And people complained about CAA/CASA being Nazis.
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Originally Posted by The Bunglerat
So maybe more of us should be asking CASA: Why are the lives of 170 pax + crew in a 737 worth more than the life of a young kid hauling night freight in a Chieftain or Aero Commander? Why is it mandatory for certain aircraft to be equipped with a serviceable radar and not others?
If the operator won't insist on providing pilots with suitable equipment to make their job safer, who will?
If the operator won't insist on providing pilots with suitable equipment to make their job safer, who will?
Not 1976 either, but still going on in 2006! And all legal down to the letter.
Grandpa Aerotart
You're right...my total time Oz GA amounts to a few hundred hours in a Conquest 2 in between jet jobs several years ago. It had all the bells and whistles...was bloody good fun actually...one of those aeroplanes I had lusted after in my 'Yoof' but thought I had missed out on enroute to boredom.
Hang-on the Falcon and Citation corporate jets were Oz registered too, although I never flew them in Oz...does that count as 'GA'?
Hang-on the Falcon and Citation corporate jets were Oz registered too, although I never flew them in Oz...does that count as 'GA'?
Chieftan? Aero Commander? C402? Try doing night freight in a C210!! Emb CBs seem just that much bigger when you've only got one donk...and one generator, one vac pump, one VHF nav/comm (original Cessna clunker box too). Wet season - scary, scary, scary. Dry season - scary. No radar, no GPS, not even a strikefinder.
Not 1976 either, but still going on in 2006! And all legal down to the letter.
Not 1976 either, but still going on in 2006! And all legal down to the letter.
.Wet season, ohhh so much fun.... NOT. The ops manager still sat back in his chair in Alice though and continued to throw **** at you when you grounded the aircraft because the autopilot didn't work!
Thank god I'm sitting fat dumb and happy in Tasi now.
morno
