Is the landing flare really all that complicated?
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Navy carrier pilots are of the opinion that "Flaring to Land" is like squatting to pee!
Now have a look at all the other grant funded research that ATSB has sponsored, it's all there on ATSB'sweb site.
Alcohol / Drug impaired pilot, bird strikes etc.
money well spent on keeping us alive. ?
Now have a look at all the other grant funded research that ATSB has sponsored, it's all there on ATSB'sweb site.
Alcohol / Drug impaired pilot, bird strikes etc.
money well spent on keeping us alive. ?
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Anyone care to share their experience with going from a large 4 engine aircraft back to a lighty?? I know on my first attempt back in a Mooney I flared at about 3 times the correct height and then said those lovely words of "Going around". 
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Pass-a-frozo, first lighty go after 5 years on the B747 was somewhat amusing, for both me and the instructor!! Took a bit of "encouragement" to let the aircraft go below the B747 height that I had become used to. The next circuit was fine. I did have to concentrate a bit more for my next landing on the B747 to make sure I flared at the correct height for the B747.
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Whilst I hesitate to agree with "OZBUSDRIVER" because it does tend to date anybody that learnt to fly off and onto grass. However my instructor said the same sage words to me many years ago. It certainly worked then but I have a hell of a job these days landing on bitumen or concrete
Then again the words "if you can't handle it, park it" also ring loudly in my memory.
tipsy
Then again the words "if you can't handle it, park it" also ring loudly in my memory.
tipsy
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Originally Posted by OZBUSDRIVER
Start flare at twenty feet....How can I tell it's twenty feet? Easy old boy, when you can make out individual blades of grass it's twenty feet.
Nunc est bibendum
Originally Posted by Pass-A-Frozo
Anyone care to share their experience with going from a large 4 engine aircraft back to a lighty?? I know on my first attempt back in a Mooney I flared at about 3 times the correct height and then said those lovely words of "Going around".
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Originally Posted by Hugh Jarse
There was an item in the Aviation Safety Digest quite a few years ago which was written by somebody by the name of Jacobson.
It went through explaining all the maths, etc, and the technique works quite well and consistently.
Jacobson Flare, anybody?
It went through explaining all the maths, etc, and the technique works quite well and consistently.
Jacobson Flare, anybody?
He had documented it and was trying to get it used by QF.
Can't remember if his name was Jacobson though.
He got the idea from an old war movie, not sure which one, could have been "The Dam Busters".
Grandpa Aerotart
Anyone care to share their experience with going from a large 4 engine aircraft back to a lighty?? I know on my first attempt back in a Mooney I flared at about 3 times the correct height and then said those lovely words of "Going around".
I have always maintained an attachment to little aeroplanes since leaving GA for airline flying nearly 12 years ago but even so my first landing is always following a flare that was a little too high. After a long absense from my Bonanza I get a terrible feeling that I have forgotten the gear as the 'swallowed by the runway' feeling creeps up around my ears.
About half way through last Xmas' big holiday trip I started rolling the Bo on in a MOST satisfying manner...then my first landing back in the 767 was a little firm
Still it's all good for the soul...and keeps the ego in check too
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Chuck; Ever thought about climbing back into a 185 again??
I found the Jacobsen flare thing to be a bit contrary to my own feelings as to how, why and when we flare.
The guy came and gave a presentation about it to a bunch of us who instructed at one of the military schools, and while it was all reasonable, I came away with the thought that while it may well work, it was something he'd come up with that he was trying to say was somehow better than other ways of learning to judge the flare.
I forget the details, but I believe the method was something to do with when the aimpoint disappeared under the nose, or was about to, cueing the flare response.
To me, that's not the way to go - I've seen lots of people learn to flare, even tried to teach them a thing or two about it, and I firmly believe that if you look in the right places, you can and will be able to judge the flare nicely, no matter who you are.
In a nutshell -
1. Before going out to learn how to flare, sit in the aircraft at the threshold for a little while and see how the runway looks in your peripheral vision.
2. Have a finals scan that looks at the aimpoint, further up the runway and also out to the sides a bit - peripheral vision also important, of course.
3. Closer to the ground, don't fixate on the numbers, keep the scan going and use any cues available - height of buildings, windsocks, fence posts, texture of grass or surface.
4. When you feel it's time to flare (normal instructor-demonstrated height for type, and other closure cues like ground 'ballooning' up in peripheral vision & what rate it's happening at), look towards the far end of the runway to judge the effectiveness of your flare so you can adjust the rate and amount.
I reckon that beats any formulaic way of doing it, however I will stand by for strong disagreement perhaps!
The guy came and gave a presentation about it to a bunch of us who instructed at one of the military schools, and while it was all reasonable, I came away with the thought that while it may well work, it was something he'd come up with that he was trying to say was somehow better than other ways of learning to judge the flare.
I forget the details, but I believe the method was something to do with when the aimpoint disappeared under the nose, or was about to, cueing the flare response.
To me, that's not the way to go - I've seen lots of people learn to flare, even tried to teach them a thing or two about it, and I firmly believe that if you look in the right places, you can and will be able to judge the flare nicely, no matter who you are.
In a nutshell -
1. Before going out to learn how to flare, sit in the aircraft at the threshold for a little while and see how the runway looks in your peripheral vision.
2. Have a finals scan that looks at the aimpoint, further up the runway and also out to the sides a bit - peripheral vision also important, of course.
3. Closer to the ground, don't fixate on the numbers, keep the scan going and use any cues available - height of buildings, windsocks, fence posts, texture of grass or surface.
4. When you feel it's time to flare (normal instructor-demonstrated height for type, and other closure cues like ground 'ballooning' up in peripheral vision & what rate it's happening at), look towards the far end of the runway to judge the effectiveness of your flare so you can adjust the rate and amount.
I reckon that beats any formulaic way of doing it, however I will stand by for strong disagreement perhaps!
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Hard landing
Sorry to get off track a bit...
I read it somewhere that a flight attendant went to the cockpit after a "hard one" ( apparently blaming the F.O for not flaring on time ) and said
" Geez guys, let me know the next time you're gonna do one of these landings so I can put my sports bra on"....
I read it somewhere that a flight attendant went to the cockpit after a "hard one" ( apparently blaming the F.O for not flaring on time ) and said
" Geez guys, let me know the next time you're gonna do one of these landings so I can put my sports bra on"....
Victor B1a
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A Flare for Flare.
My Gawd! "non-pilots".
As shown in DHC 1,JP3, JP 5, Folland Gnat and Victor Bia way back thirty odd years ago by various QFI's:-
1.Stable correct speed over the fence wings level.
2. When one scenses the edges of the runway about to "feel" like they are just below your earlobes boot off the drift,if required, and flare power off et al. Then all you have to do is wait.
3. The same imagining technique work at night kooking at the reds and the other end and "feeling the lights come up around your ears.
It worked for me in aircraft of all sizes.
Victor B1a.
As shown in DHC 1,JP3, JP 5, Folland Gnat and Victor Bia way back thirty odd years ago by various QFI's:-
1.Stable correct speed over the fence wings level.
2. When one scenses the edges of the runway about to "feel" like they are just below your earlobes boot off the drift,if required, and flare power off et al. Then all you have to do is wait.
3. The same imagining technique work at night kooking at the reds and the other end and "feeling the lights come up around your ears.
It worked for me in aircraft of all sizes.
Victor B1a.
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"Would the passengers please remain seated whilst the captain taxis what's left of this aircraft, to the Passenger Terminal!"
Best flare I ever saw was the film footage of the DHC5 Caribou demonstrator at an air show many years ago. Think the flare was intended to occur at ground level, minus forty feet. Buffalos are built tough - but not that tough!!!
Best flare I ever saw was the film footage of the DHC5 Caribou demonstrator at an air show many years ago. Think the flare was intended to occur at ground level, minus forty feet. Buffalos are built tough - but not that tough!!!
Grandpa Aerotart
Pinky I flew a mates C180 late last year in the UK...it used to be registered P2-DEQ when I last flew it in PNG....looking forward to doing so again soon.
That's pretty much what I do in the 767...although I begin to round out just after the 30' talking radalt call so about 25RA. If you get the right pitch rate and time sliding the thrust levers closed just right (by looking well down the runway-just like any aeroplane) you can get a MOST satisfying feeling of VERY slight 'drag' low down as the autobrakes indicate you have touched down
Edited for 'begin to round out'
When the mechanical voice says 20ft raise the nose 2deg and wait. The triple bogie take care of the rest.
Edited for 'begin to round out'
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 3rd Jul 2006 at 10:10.
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Not wanting to be totally serious about this subject BUT
When I worked in the BASI (Oz), a psych PhD student wanted to check exactly that - how do pilots learn to land (flare) and aeroplane - to grease it on.
I suggested that first it might be a good idea if she went out and did it with an instructor - I think I was President of the Canberra Aero Club at the time. She went out with the CFI (ex-army pilot who made it look very easy).
She went and flew a few circuits and then came back and exposed a lot of BASI pilots to a series of tests - involving images and perceptions of appoach etc. Flash cards thingies.
I am sure that her conclusion was that despite all of the therories - and taught techiques (blades of grass included) we all did it differently, what worked for us as individuals worked and no one could to explain it.
I hope she got her PhD.
When I worked in the BASI (Oz), a psych PhD student wanted to check exactly that - how do pilots learn to land (flare) and aeroplane - to grease it on.
I suggested that first it might be a good idea if she went out and did it with an instructor - I think I was President of the Canberra Aero Club at the time. She went out with the CFI (ex-army pilot who made it look very easy).
She went and flew a few circuits and then came back and exposed a lot of BASI pilots to a series of tests - involving images and perceptions of appoach etc. Flash cards thingies.
I am sure that her conclusion was that despite all of the therories - and taught techiques (blades of grass included) we all did it differently, what worked for us as individuals worked and no one could to explain it.
I hope she got her PhD.
CC
If you had a more modern steed you wouldn't have to retard the throttles. Autothrottle is full time.
With a bit of luck the Q will one day come out of the third world. (But hang on, most of that third world already have modern equipment)
BTW. If you do it right the speedbrake lever will tell you you are on the ground.
Maui
If you had a more modern steed you wouldn't have to retard the throttles. Autothrottle is full time.
With a bit of luck the Q will one day come out of the third world. (But hang on, most of that third world already have modern equipment)
BTW. If you do it right the speedbrake lever will tell you you are on the ground.
Maui