Sth Africans try to 'relocate' YPJT for massive profit, yes or no. Lets hear it?
Thread Starter
Sth Africans try to 'relocate' YPJT for massive profit, yes or no. Lets hear it?
Heard on Perth Radio 6PR today, that,
Jandakot Holdings Pty Ltd
are announcing a PLAN to move Jandakot flying operations to a 'new' site approx 20kms South of YPJT, in about 2 to 5 years or so.
According to the radio, this would release about xx hectares (Sorry, missed the quote as to the area) for HOUSING.........
'Tis a long term plan apparently, with the obvious proviso that YPJT could / would not be closed until the new airport was operational, then it would be closed and redeveloped....
How would this move affect the present operators, flight schools, maintenance organisations, with all of their infrastructure - hangars, etc - and proximity to Perth customers - especially the 'North of The River' customer base, - I wonder?
Not to mention our overseas friends with their very substantial accommodation buildings etc?
The RFDS ops with their proximity to Perth hospitals? (Medical implications?)
And, bearing in mind that both Serpentine and Murray Field happen to reside in the same approximate location, how would Circuit Area traffic congestion and Training Area congestion from all three G/A airports in close proximity, be managed?
New GAAP Control Zone / s?? Do Serpentine and / or Murray Field WANT to be governed by GAAP?
With the Airport Local Ownership Plan idea which was the instrument for the 'selling off' of our airports around the country, was it not a condition that the airports would remain airports??
Is there a 'Community Service' Obligation here?
Can someone who may be 'in the know' please elaborate on any of the above??
I am amazed.....
Jandakot Holdings Pty Ltd
are announcing a PLAN to move Jandakot flying operations to a 'new' site approx 20kms South of YPJT, in about 2 to 5 years or so.
According to the radio, this would release about xx hectares (Sorry, missed the quote as to the area) for HOUSING.........
'Tis a long term plan apparently, with the obvious proviso that YPJT could / would not be closed until the new airport was operational, then it would be closed and redeveloped....
How would this move affect the present operators, flight schools, maintenance organisations, with all of their infrastructure - hangars, etc - and proximity to Perth customers - especially the 'North of The River' customer base, - I wonder?
Not to mention our overseas friends with their very substantial accommodation buildings etc?
The RFDS ops with their proximity to Perth hospitals? (Medical implications?)
And, bearing in mind that both Serpentine and Murray Field happen to reside in the same approximate location, how would Circuit Area traffic congestion and Training Area congestion from all three G/A airports in close proximity, be managed?
New GAAP Control Zone / s?? Do Serpentine and / or Murray Field WANT to be governed by GAAP?
With the Airport Local Ownership Plan idea which was the instrument for the 'selling off' of our airports around the country, was it not a condition that the airports would remain airports??
Is there a 'Community Service' Obligation here?
Can someone who may be 'in the know' please elaborate on any of the above??
I am amazed.....
How does this tie in with the proposed (approved?) 12/30 parallel runway?
It seems it will be either wasted investment or else a big change of plan.
Anyway, I thought that the land for YPJT was leasehold? The fifty year lease from 1963 runs out in 2013. Maybe the freeholders are jacking up the price of the 49 year option on the leasehold? Could be a manouvre to call their bluff?
T'would be a sad thing to see happen, if it does.
A
It seems it will be either wasted investment or else a big change of plan.
Anyway, I thought that the land for YPJT was leasehold? The fifty year lease from 1963 runs out in 2013. Maybe the freeholders are jacking up the price of the 49 year option on the leasehold? Could be a manouvre to call their bluff?
T'would be a sad thing to see happen, if it does.
A
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Over mine and few dozen other bodies UNLESS the new one is clearly superior AND totally financed from the old one AND cheaper ground rent AND free replacement of exisitng infrastucture as a non negotiable starting point etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
The new freeway and rail system is actually very good and the ETI for the new one is probably not much different for the new with maybe better access. Just forget about anyone in the Northern suburbs being able to fly.
AND
ANY profit from the redevelopment must be used in the new one and the balance put into a fund for the future of aviation in Perth.
The airport used to belong to us. Any profit therefore belongs to us.
It is outrageous the development value of the land is waaaaaaaaaaaay higher than what they paid for it and it stays as an airport as in the original agreement or they hand over the loot less their reasonable costs.
The old switcheroo.
The new freeway and rail system is actually very good and the ETI for the new one is probably not much different for the new with maybe better access. Just forget about anyone in the Northern suburbs being able to fly.
AND
ANY profit from the redevelopment must be used in the new one and the balance put into a fund for the future of aviation in Perth.
The airport used to belong to us. Any profit therefore belongs to us.
It is outrageous the development value of the land is waaaaaaaaaaaay higher than what they paid for it and it stays as an airport as in the original agreement or they hand over the loot less their reasonable costs.
The old switcheroo.
Thread Starter
YPJT??
Gaunty,
Better get to more of those brekkies.....methinks you may have been served
m u s h r o o m s....
On tonight's CH7, they suggest near Keysbrook as a likely site.....
Smack bang between Serpentine and Murray Field!
GAAP??
Oh, and when I used to instruct from JT back in those 'good ole days', one early slightly foggy morning, I am sure I saw what could have been a .....WAGGYL....
slithering across the grass between the rwys......
Better get to more of those brekkies.....methinks you may have been served
m u s h r o o m s....
On tonight's CH7, they suggest near Keysbrook as a likely site.....
Smack bang between Serpentine and Murray Field!
GAAP??
Oh, and when I used to instruct from JT back in those 'good ole days', one early slightly foggy morning, I am sure I saw what could have been a .....WAGGYL....
slithering across the grass between the rwys......
Moderator
Interesting as a tenant to also find out about this on 6PR.
So I rang the airport managment office to find out if some journo had got it wrong.
I was told by the lady who answered the phone "yes it's true but it won't be happenning in the next five minutes or anything"
So I asked to speak to the boss who was out, but who called me back later to confirm it and give all the speil about how much better it would be etc etc etc........
and then recieved this by email which was pretty much what he had said on the phone.
"NOTICE TO ALL TENANTS
You will notice the article about Jandakot Airport in today's edition of The Australian. The article is about the possible relocation of Jandakot Airport further south from its current location, which is an idea we have recently been discussing with Federal and State authorities, to support general aviation in Western Australia.
We realise one of the biggest issues facing the industry these days is the cost of operating. Some of these operational costs can be reduced if the airport can be reloacted. Rents will be lower and the costs associated with delays will be eliminated. Other benefits are brand new buildings for all tenants in configurations to suit you requirements, new runways, taxiways and services all designed to suit operational needs. We also propose to build a world class aviation university on the site for training in all aspects of the aviation industry, mechanical, electrical, operational, flight training etc.
We believe that the relocation of Jandakot Airport is a unique opportunity which will significantly improve the safetry and operational efficiency of general aviation in Western Australia. We will also be able to increase the capacity over time by producing up to six runways.
Apart from resultinig in significant economic benefits to the Australian economy, this will provide for the subsidising of general aviation in Western Australia, thereby securing its future.
We are at a very early stage of developing our ideas and it will take years to research, plan for and possibly get approval for the relocation of the airport and we will keep you informed of our progress. In the interim we continue to support general aviation at Jandakot Airport.
John Fraser
Managing Director"
!!!!!
I would love to see some of his figures used to calculate that
"Some of these operational costs can be reduced if the airport can be reloacted. Rents will be lower and the costs associated with delays will be eliminated."
By the time , "years to research, plan for and possibly get approval for the relocation of the airport" every inch of land between Perth and Mandurah will probably be covered in little suburban houses!
A few people saw this coming, but it would have been nice not to find out on the radio news.
So I rang the airport managment office to find out if some journo had got it wrong.
I was told by the lady who answered the phone "yes it's true but it won't be happenning in the next five minutes or anything"
So I asked to speak to the boss who was out, but who called me back later to confirm it and give all the speil about how much better it would be etc etc etc........
and then recieved this by email which was pretty much what he had said on the phone.
"NOTICE TO ALL TENANTS
You will notice the article about Jandakot Airport in today's edition of The Australian. The article is about the possible relocation of Jandakot Airport further south from its current location, which is an idea we have recently been discussing with Federal and State authorities, to support general aviation in Western Australia.
We realise one of the biggest issues facing the industry these days is the cost of operating. Some of these operational costs can be reduced if the airport can be reloacted. Rents will be lower and the costs associated with delays will be eliminated. Other benefits are brand new buildings for all tenants in configurations to suit you requirements, new runways, taxiways and services all designed to suit operational needs. We also propose to build a world class aviation university on the site for training in all aspects of the aviation industry, mechanical, electrical, operational, flight training etc.
We believe that the relocation of Jandakot Airport is a unique opportunity which will significantly improve the safetry and operational efficiency of general aviation in Western Australia. We will also be able to increase the capacity over time by producing up to six runways.
Apart from resultinig in significant economic benefits to the Australian economy, this will provide for the subsidising of general aviation in Western Australia, thereby securing its future.
We are at a very early stage of developing our ideas and it will take years to research, plan for and possibly get approval for the relocation of the airport and we will keep you informed of our progress. In the interim we continue to support general aviation at Jandakot Airport.
John Fraser
Managing Director"
!!!!!
I would love to see some of his figures used to calculate that
"Some of these operational costs can be reduced if the airport can be reloacted. Rents will be lower and the costs associated with delays will be eliminated."
By the time , "years to research, plan for and possibly get approval for the relocation of the airport" every inch of land between Perth and Mandurah will probably be covered in little suburban houses!
A few people saw this coming, but it would have been nice not to find out on the radio news.
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PAF
So where is the Dickspace on the chart.
Seriously, the proximity to YPPH and the approach basket for R03 arrivals infringing what was YPJT airspace means we often have to wait for yonks to get an IFR or any northbound clearance outa there.
Its getting better with the blue suiters now having consoles right next to the Airservices guys so they can coordinate arrivals and departures from/to the North throught the Mil airspace.
But its the old story, every body wants priority and nobody wants to to be the one to have to wait or make any concessions.
Greg Russell and the boys inc DOTARS and CASA are coming over next week for a wongi followed by a corroboree.
They geniunely are in listening mode, so far it is Dick free and will remain so if he is smart.
GRIFFO nah mate JAH are smoking something rare. The Minister and his advisers recently read them the riot act.
Maybe they are trying to bluff their way, they're Seth Efricans so they probably think we are stupid like they are.
So where is the Dickspace on the chart.
Seriously, the proximity to YPPH and the approach basket for R03 arrivals infringing what was YPJT airspace means we often have to wait for yonks to get an IFR or any northbound clearance outa there.
Its getting better with the blue suiters now having consoles right next to the Airservices guys so they can coordinate arrivals and departures from/to the North throught the Mil airspace.
But its the old story, every body wants priority and nobody wants to to be the one to have to wait or make any concessions.
Greg Russell and the boys inc DOTARS and CASA are coming over next week for a wongi followed by a corroboree.
They geniunely are in listening mode, so far it is Dick free and will remain so if he is smart.
GRIFFO nah mate JAH are smoking something rare. The Minister and his advisers recently read them the riot act.
Maybe they are trying to bluff their way, they're Seth Efricans so they probably think we are stupid like they are.
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It is not often that PPRuNe take up the cudgels on any issue.
But this is one of them.
Mr Fraser who floats the idea with his "trying hard to be innocuous" little spiel to see who does or does not salute it, should understand it is not even an original idea and it is not negotiable.
Whatever they are paying whoever is advising them internally or whoever they have hired, is clearly way too much.
They need to be told simply, clearly, concisely and in words of ONE syllable and with a sjamboek held in clear view, that we are not stupid and we do not take kindly at all to patronising BS.
If any PPRuNers have a different view then they should be confident that they are entitled to submit them here without any fear. We will only intervene if the rules are broken.
So lets hear them.
BTW, this is breathtakingly arrogant, which is entirely in character, because under the Commonwealth Act that governms their lease they do NOT have the power to move anything anywhere and certainly not without the approval and cooperation of ther State Government.
But this is one of them.
Mr Fraser who floats the idea with his "trying hard to be innocuous" little spiel to see who does or does not salute it, should understand it is not even an original idea and it is not negotiable.
Whatever they are paying whoever is advising them internally or whoever they have hired, is clearly way too much.
They need to be told simply, clearly, concisely and in words of ONE syllable and with a sjamboek held in clear view, that we are not stupid and we do not take kindly at all to patronising BS.
If any PPRuNers have a different view then they should be confident that they are entitled to submit them here without any fear. We will only intervene if the rules are broken.
So lets hear them.
BTW, this is breathtakingly arrogant, which is entirely in character, because under the Commonwealth Act that governms their lease they do NOT have the power to move anything anywhere and certainly not without the approval and cooperation of ther State Government.
Serpentine-Jarrahdale Shire are reputedly not aviation friendly - there have been several airstrip proposals knocked back.
There are more horses than ratepayers out there, and it seems they effectively run the Council
happy days,
There are more horses than ratepayers out there, and it seems they effectively run the Council
happy days,
Quote from DPI website
DPI website says:
(my bold and italics)
A
Situated about 12 kilometres south of Perth's CBD, Jandakot Airport is Western Australia's major General Aviation (GA) airport and one of the busiest GA airports in the southern hemisphere. The State Government recognises Jandakot is a vital piece of infrastructure which cannot be relocated.
A
We had a brief from our boss at work today at around about 0830 local (which I missed) but he said they seem pretty keen on the idea, and the new location was somewhere within the YMUL circuit area (which excited the boss no end).
I caught on the CH10 news that the airport may not be relocated without State and Federal govt approval. Allanah McTiernan also said that they were not at this stage excited about the prospect with problems being caused then for anyone living NoR.
Interesting times. Given our building was in the way of one of the proposed new runways, maybe they thought bugger it, we can start from scratch with this one 
I caught on the CH10 news that the airport may not be relocated without State and Federal govt approval. Allanah McTiernan also said that they were not at this stage excited about the prospect with problems being caused then for anyone living NoR.
Interesting times. Given our building was in the way of one of the proposed new runways, maybe they thought bugger it, we can start from scratch with this one
Grandpa Aerotart
All the Yarpy spivs I have met, and I admit I have not met all of them, were guilty of not thinking things through to a logical, or legal, conclusion...seems these fall into the same category.
Boss Yarpy: "Hey we can sell the land here to developers for X and lease a bigger block down here for 10% of X."
Govt: "You wanna do what with that leased airport land?"
Council at proposed site: "Yeah and you can get stuffed"
Oz airport resident: "You're an idiot!"
I think the reason is they are used to getting their own way with the 'help'
I am not suggesting all Yarps are spivs.
Boss Yarpy: "Hey we can sell the land here to developers for X and lease a bigger block down here for 10% of X."
Govt: "You wanna do what with that leased airport land?"
Council at proposed site: "Yeah and you can get stuffed"
Oz airport resident: "You're an idiot!"
I think the reason is they are used to getting their own way with the 'help'
I am not suggesting all Yarps are spivs.
With great respect fellow Oz ppruners, I strongly suggest that you engage with this proposal constructively and analyse it in detail instead of reaching for the shotgun and declaring war.
Start with a positive open mind and analyse the pro's and con's from an operational, practical, business and financial viewpoint. If, at the end of the process, there is a consensus that this is not a good idea, then at least you will have done your homework and have some well thought out foundations for your opposition.
On the other hand, if the conditions were right who knows? I say this knowing bugger all about Jandakot or running an aviation business.
With reference to the question of "Ownership", "Promises", "Leases", "Rights", "Contracts", "a man's home is his castle etc. etc." I respectfully suggest that these mean SFA in the context of a major development as they can all be made to go away by suitable legislation and a liberal amount of compensation money, thats how freeways get built.
To put it another way, if State and Federal Governments decide that closing Jandakot is a good thing for the community, then it is going to happen.
I suspect that a lot of planning has already gone into this idea unless the MD is a complete idiot. I would assume both State and Federal politicians have been sounded out and the project costed. I don't think that off airport businesses are going to care too much if their property values improve as a result of closure. I guess the question for an on airport business is what the compensation is going to be for the disruption and inconvenience of moving.
As for the RFDS, etc. that is for them to figure out in negotiations.
Start with a positive open mind and analyse the pro's and con's from an operational, practical, business and financial viewpoint. If, at the end of the process, there is a consensus that this is not a good idea, then at least you will have done your homework and have some well thought out foundations for your opposition.
On the other hand, if the conditions were right who knows? I say this knowing bugger all about Jandakot or running an aviation business.
With reference to the question of "Ownership", "Promises", "Leases", "Rights", "Contracts", "a man's home is his castle etc. etc." I respectfully suggest that these mean SFA in the context of a major development as they can all be made to go away by suitable legislation and a liberal amount of compensation money, thats how freeways get built.
To put it another way, if State and Federal Governments decide that closing Jandakot is a good thing for the community, then it is going to happen.
I suspect that a lot of planning has already gone into this idea unless the MD is a complete idiot. I would assume both State and Federal politicians have been sounded out and the project costed. I don't think that off airport businesses are going to care too much if their property values improve as a result of closure. I guess the question for an on airport business is what the compensation is going to be for the disruption and inconvenience of moving.
As for the RFDS, etc. that is for them to figure out in negotiations.
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Sunfish
I can not say to you strongly enough that the process to which you refer has been performed ad nausea, in spades yet.
See Chimbus comments.
Their actions and responses ? from the initial announcement going forward have been at the very least arrogant and at the best show total ignorance of the civilised processes that work in our civilised society.
See Chimbus comments again.
I can assure you there has **** all consultation with the tenants or their representative group neither has there been to my knowledge any change in Fed or State Govt legislation or attitude.
The simple facts are that it will require an Act of Federal Parliament to change the nature of the lease agreement AND some debate over to whom if any the freehold will be granted. In any event the proceeds of the sale of the freehold would have to back to the Feds NOT JAH.
Further were there to be a sale of Commonwealth freehold assets there is a process required by legislation that would have to open the game to competition from others.
I'd love to see the game of Twister that has the Feds trying to justify the gift of the land to JAH especially since it is a condition of the lease and they made it unequivocally clear to them at the outset that the land was to be used as an airport, period.
Ownership of a lease regardless of what you may have paid for it does not in and of itself confer freehold ownership rights or an automatic entitlement to them.
As for the Govt any Govt riding roughshod over the prols hand in hand with some developers, they might find what may have worked in the past does not necessarily now.
We've had this fight before and we'll do it again if we have to.
I strongly suggest that you engage with this proposal constructively and analyse it in detail instead of reaching for the shotgun and declaring war.
I suspect that a lot of planning has already gone into this idea unless the MD is a complete idiot. I would assume both State and Federal politicians have been sounded out and the project costed.
Their actions and responses ? from the initial announcement going forward have been at the very least arrogant and at the best show total ignorance of the civilised processes that work in our civilised society.
See Chimbus comments again.
I can assure you there has **** all consultation with the tenants or their representative group neither has there been to my knowledge any change in Fed or State Govt legislation or attitude.
The simple facts are that it will require an Act of Federal Parliament to change the nature of the lease agreement AND some debate over to whom if any the freehold will be granted. In any event the proceeds of the sale of the freehold would have to back to the Feds NOT JAH.
Further were there to be a sale of Commonwealth freehold assets there is a process required by legislation that would have to open the game to competition from others.
I'd love to see the game of Twister that has the Feds trying to justify the gift of the land to JAH especially since it is a condition of the lease and they made it unequivocally clear to them at the outset that the land was to be used as an airport, period.
Ownership of a lease regardless of what you may have paid for it does not in and of itself confer freehold ownership rights or an automatic entitlement to them.
As for the Govt any Govt riding roughshod over the prols hand in hand with some developers, they might find what may have worked in the past does not necessarily now.
We've had this fight before and we'll do it again if we have to.
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and with a sjamboek held in clear view
Whilst reading this thread a chill went down my spine and it was'nt the weather. I wonder how long it will be before authorities in other states try to pull the same stunts? A cynical view perhaps but....
