Are we witnessing a paradigm shift in aviation?
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As to the proposed IR reforms, whilst they may in fact be passed by the rubber stamp in federal parliament, they are a long way from operational. My information tells me the States challenges are creating a number of serious issues both for the scope and application of the said reforms.....
Grandpa Aerotart
More IR reforms?
Bring it on I say....can't think of anything else that will unite workers quicker.
What will they do when faced with MASSIVE WIDESPREAD civil dissobedience?
How long do you think people will put up with having their aspirations shattered while a few reap millions in bonuses?
How long before the Libs self destruct at the polling boothes from ideological excess?
Maybe we'll finally see AFAP and AIPA work together?
The J* boys and girls had no choice but to vote up the EBA under current circumstances...but I think all this is going to blow up in Little Johny's face...and GD's.
Bring it on I say....can't think of anything else that will unite workers quicker.
What will they do when faced with MASSIVE WIDESPREAD civil dissobedience?
How long do you think people will put up with having their aspirations shattered while a few reap millions in bonuses?
How long before the Libs self destruct at the polling boothes from ideological excess?
Maybe we'll finally see AFAP and AIPA work together?
The J* boys and girls had no choice but to vote up the EBA under current circumstances...but I think all this is going to blow up in Little Johny's face...and GD's.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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...unless we form one union
For unless we do, I suspect that indeed we will be "done dirt cheap!"
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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I think you're right Elroy.
Although I am not directly affected now by the the redundancies in Syd heavy maint I expect there will be numerous follow up consequences that will affect me.
I was discussing the situation with my "old man" and pondering whether to jump now or wait to be pushed at a later date.
His response (which is from an outsiders point of view) was that "the golden years of aviation are gone. It's now little more than a bus service". In his day train drivers,station masters and even school teachers and policemen were held in high regard by the community. Times change and you have to keep ahead of the pack as best you can.
That may not be how we as aviation professionals see ourselves but that is how a lot of the public view us.
A lot of people think it would be good to earn $150K to fly around the world or to earn $70K to work on modern airliners and as such there will be no shortage of willing applicants. Whether those willing are up to the task of the responsibility, only time will tell.
Maybe its like the Roads and Traffic Authority where they only put up a set of lights after there has been numerous accidents and a few fatalaties. I hope that is not the case but the cynic in me says it will be.
Even if the incident/accident rate does creep up, will management see it as being their fault that they didn't pay eneough to get a higher quality employee or will they simply blame the employee for making a mistake doing a task that he wasn't capable of, or adequately trained for, in the first place. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys!!
If GD can get away with paying everyone 20-30% less and there is no impact on operations then I guess he's right. I don't like to think of the worst case scenario if he's wrong but I reckon that's the only way outsiders will recognise the true value of what all aviation proffessionals are worth.
Only time will tell.
Although I am not directly affected now by the the redundancies in Syd heavy maint I expect there will be numerous follow up consequences that will affect me.
I was discussing the situation with my "old man" and pondering whether to jump now or wait to be pushed at a later date.
His response (which is from an outsiders point of view) was that "the golden years of aviation are gone. It's now little more than a bus service". In his day train drivers,station masters and even school teachers and policemen were held in high regard by the community. Times change and you have to keep ahead of the pack as best you can.
That may not be how we as aviation professionals see ourselves but that is how a lot of the public view us.
A lot of people think it would be good to earn $150K to fly around the world or to earn $70K to work on modern airliners and as such there will be no shortage of willing applicants. Whether those willing are up to the task of the responsibility, only time will tell.
Maybe its like the Roads and Traffic Authority where they only put up a set of lights after there has been numerous accidents and a few fatalaties. I hope that is not the case but the cynic in me says it will be.
Even if the incident/accident rate does creep up, will management see it as being their fault that they didn't pay eneough to get a higher quality employee or will they simply blame the employee for making a mistake doing a task that he wasn't capable of, or adequately trained for, in the first place. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys!!
If GD can get away with paying everyone 20-30% less and there is no impact on operations then I guess he's right. I don't like to think of the worst case scenario if he's wrong but I reckon that's the only way outsiders will recognise the true value of what all aviation proffessionals are worth.
Only time will tell.
It doesn't matter how little you pay airline pilots, the love and perceived romance of flying and the uniforms and gold stripes never fails to attract young people to the job if they can afford the initial training costs. Superb aircraft automation and in Australia anyway, first class ATC, go a long way to reducing CFIT accidents to acceptable levels of practically zero.
As much as it goes against the grain of those of us brought up to equate thousands of log book flying hours with safety, that argument is now largely irrelevant. A 250 hour pilot with 100 hours in a simulator is an automatic pilot ace. We can scorn the automatic monkeys as not skilful pilots, but seems to me the accident rates have fallen dramatically with increased use of automation. Excellent aircraft systems reliability helps too.
Pilot salaries are certainly on the way down in low cost airlines but accident rates are also at a historical low. If you can make the top grade in Dragonair and Cathay the high paying jobs, then best of luck but that is for only the chosen few.
As much as it goes against the grain of those of us brought up to equate thousands of log book flying hours with safety, that argument is now largely irrelevant. A 250 hour pilot with 100 hours in a simulator is an automatic pilot ace. We can scorn the automatic monkeys as not skilful pilots, but seems to me the accident rates have fallen dramatically with increased use of automation. Excellent aircraft systems reliability helps too.
Pilot salaries are certainly on the way down in low cost airlines but accident rates are also at a historical low. If you can make the top grade in Dragonair and Cathay the high paying jobs, then best of luck but that is for only the chosen few.
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Centaurus,
The problem with civvie training up to the airline intake is that nobody really fails and if they do, they just throw more money at the problem until it supposedly goes away.
Airlines all over the world hve the odd crew member that takes " a little longer to get through". The problem is that these problems that arise never really go away. They turn into expensive training events following busted checkrides or enforcement action from the certifying body.
"Have you driven a Ford lately?" If you have you'll know that they haven't learned a thing. High consumption, poor finish and recalls that centre around catching on fire. Some of these things can be fixed: others you just have to live with...or get another car.
Pilot recruitment is pretty much the same way.
The problem with civvie training up to the airline intake is that nobody really fails and if they do, they just throw more money at the problem until it supposedly goes away.
Airlines all over the world hve the odd crew member that takes " a little longer to get through". The problem is that these problems that arise never really go away. They turn into expensive training events following busted checkrides or enforcement action from the certifying body.
"Have you driven a Ford lately?" If you have you'll know that they haven't learned a thing. High consumption, poor finish and recalls that centre around catching on fire. Some of these things can be fixed: others you just have to live with...or get another car.
Pilot recruitment is pretty much the same way.
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Aw come on boys and girls give us some good news, I've just been forced into paying for my "career advancement" - a poxy $10k Metro rating just to save my sanity and my life... and get out of the piston twin world.
This entitles me to part-time work where I get paid an amazing $34/hr!! Sounds not too bad... compared to the piston twin GA Job... but that's per flying hour. This week I had two days flying - Tuesday, two flights, short sectors, total two hours = $68 for 9hrs duty = $7.56/hr I'd get double that at McD's. Wednesday was worse 2hrs flying, 10hrs duty, so it dropped to $6.80/hr.
What am I supposed to do??? I've had some wicked times, some great flying, put my heart and soul in to it, coming up for 5years perseverance, a hundred grand investment, an airline job is almost on the horizon and now you tell me (from one school of thought) I wont get a decent wage once I get there; or (the other school of thought) if I do I get a decent wage (to me this equates to $100k+) I dont deserve it.
Should I give up... get a real job... tell my employer to stick it where the sun don't shine???
Do I throw another $30k into the never ending pit of aviation financing for a 73 rating and hope for a "decent salary"???
Do I persevere where I am and hope that this alleged pilot shortage is real and that a pilot friendly company finds me and offers me a great job... with just enough flying, interesting sectors, a good salary, great benefits and no HR department!!!
I don't know!!! I need help...!!! I'm clinging to my mid thirties with desperation getting paid paper-round wages, I have no money just debt, I need to know it was worth it and that I'll reap the rewards of my cheerful hard work and positive attitude.
L.O.L.
GWB
This entitles me to part-time work where I get paid an amazing $34/hr!! Sounds not too bad... compared to the piston twin GA Job... but that's per flying hour. This week I had two days flying - Tuesday, two flights, short sectors, total two hours = $68 for 9hrs duty = $7.56/hr
I'd get double that at McD's. Wednesday was worse 2hrs flying, 10hrs duty, so it dropped to $6.80/hr.What am I supposed to do??? I've had some wicked times, some great flying, put my heart and soul in to it, coming up for 5years perseverance, a hundred grand investment, an airline job is almost on the horizon and now you tell me (from one school of thought) I wont get a decent wage once I get there; or (the other school of thought) if I do I get a decent wage (to me this equates to $100k+) I dont deserve it.
Should I give up... get a real job... tell my employer to stick it where the sun don't shine???
Do I throw another $30k into the never ending pit of aviation financing for a 73 rating and hope for a "decent salary"???
Do I persevere where I am and hope that this alleged pilot shortage is real and that a pilot friendly company finds me and offers me a great job... with just enough flying, interesting sectors, a good salary, great benefits and no HR department!!!
I don't know!!! I need help...!!! I'm clinging to my mid thirties with desperation getting paid paper-round wages, I have no money just debt, I need to know it was worth it and that I'll reap the rewards of my cheerful hard work and positive attitude.
L.O.L.
GWB
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Well I dont know what the latest figure is for a bare fixed wing CPL, but I was talking to the owner of a very succesful Helo operator and he tells me that a CPLH starts at $50,000.
There is a huge surplus of fixed wing GA pilots and an equally large shortage of helo pilots.
It appears to me that if you can walk and chew gum at the same time, helo is the way to go.
, throwing more and more money at fixed wing career that hasn't yet got you in the door might be cause for pause and review. Your investment so far would not be wasted either.
There is a huge surplus of fixed wing GA pilots and an equally large shortage of helo pilots.
It appears to me that if you can walk and chew gum at the same time, helo is the way to go.
, throwing more and more money at fixed wing career that hasn't yet got you in the door might be cause for pause and review. Your investment so far would not be wasted either.
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GWB,
If you're single no kids then why not look to Africa with your metro rating or the Carribean? Get regular flying and paid well, tell your current employer 'no thanks'.
I can see you hanging around work washing planes, not getting paid for anything except the few hours a week you're doing. Aviation wouldn't exist in some Aussie quarters if it wasn't for that sort of committment, but as a market place it sucks.
A friend of mine worked for an outfit in Africa on King Airs, rating supplied FOC, £2000 month and he struggled to spend £200 of that on living costs and beer. It was tempting even to look at it myself.
Aussie pilots wanting to get a decent job back in Australia will struggle to find one now.
Good luck GWB
Blue Foot
If you're single no kids then why not look to Africa with your metro rating or the Carribean? Get regular flying and paid well, tell your current employer 'no thanks'.
I can see you hanging around work washing planes, not getting paid for anything except the few hours a week you're doing. Aviation wouldn't exist in some Aussie quarters if it wasn't for that sort of committment, but as a market place it sucks.
A friend of mine worked for an outfit in Africa on King Airs, rating supplied FOC, £2000 month and he struggled to spend £200 of that on living costs and beer. It was tempting even to look at it myself.
Aussie pilots wanting to get a decent job back in Australia will struggle to find one now.
Good luck GWB
Blue Foot
Last edited by Blue-Footed Boobie; 11th Mar 2006 at 07:59.
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Originally Posted by Centaurus
If you can make the top grade in Dragonair and Cathay the high paying jobs, then best of luck but that is for only the chosen few.
Last week two pilots were sacked by management. The first tangible casualty in the campaign.
