JETSTAR PILOTS
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JETSTAR PILOTS
Are there any jetstar pilots on pprune that are willing to say that this new WIDEBODY eba will really get the yes vote???
Or is the general thought throughout the ranks that it is really an insult to everyones intelligence??
If everyone can keep it clean just how woomera likes it, there is no reason for this very important topic to close or be moved.
Or is the general thought throughout the ranks that it is really an insult to everyones intelligence??
If everyone can keep it clean just how woomera likes it, there is no reason for this very important topic to close or be moved.
Last edited by Break Right; 24th Feb 2006 at 02:26.
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Yeah, well Break Right I'll leave this open for the time being. However, considering you asked a question, I've moved it to D&G Questions, where it belongs...
Woomera (Eastern States)
Woomera (Eastern States)
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Jetstar EBA is going to get up by a slim margin. Management pretty convincing about future potential. Automatically got 50% of vote with premise every current F/o ending up in left seat over next 18months. Will be public knowledge some time after the 6th March.
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Jetjocky "..premise all f/o's end up in LHS over next 18 mths.." equals the classic illusion in aviation matey. It is the classic promise or carrot of all times. Do not believe it for a minute. Whilst your illustrious management may make the promise, and may mean well, it is amazing how poorly a line check or sim ride can go if required. (read between the lines).
No offence to the current Jetstar pilot group but you guys sign the Widebody EBA (yes I have read a copy briefly) and you have sold yourselves real short.
Yes the aviation industry has chaged forever, how thrilled was I to pay for a 737 rating (not) but sit back and have another look at the offer. It's a joke, you could ask for $30k more and still be far more competitive than QF Mainline. If you want the gig on the A330/B787 thats fine but hell why work for peanuts and screw everyones future, particularly your colleagues in QF.
No offence to the current Jetstar pilot group but you guys sign the Widebody EBA (yes I have read a copy briefly) and you have sold yourselves real short.
Yes the aviation industry has chaged forever, how thrilled was I to pay for a 737 rating (not) but sit back and have another look at the offer. It's a joke, you could ask for $30k more and still be far more competitive than QF Mainline. If you want the gig on the A330/B787 thats fine but hell why work for peanuts and screw everyones future, particularly your colleagues in QF.
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Have a broader outlook...please
All pilots around the world need to stand up to management who are continually attempting to erode professional aviators pay and conditions!!!
Every pilot works extremely hard to get their first position within an airline and then even harder on the long road to a Jet Command. Unfortunately, many management types have very very little idea of the sacrafices made and the work done in order for pilots to achieve this goal.
The current deal put to JETSTAR may look relatively good to some..... However, if you talk to any of your friends (external to the aviation industry) in the bigger cities in Australia (ie: Logistics, IT, Finance) you will quickly realise that many are paid what is on offer to a JETSTAR A330 Captain, only 3-5 years after graduating from university!!!
Do you really think that a Widebody International Aircraft Captain is worth what a recent graduate is worth in other professions???.. I hope not.
For a very lucky few JETSTAR INTERNATIONAL may provide a slightly shorter road to command and a better salary than what they may be currently paid. However, for the majority (and future pilots) this deal will make the road to command all the more difficult financially. It will effectively change the financial rewards associated with the GOAL forever!!
Ask yourself - Do you think anyone else in another professional industry would accept such and erosion in their conditions (QF v JETSTAR)??? I am pretty sure management would not accept any erosion in their conditions!
Professional pilots need to compare their industry/personal terms and conditions against other professions and stop just looking at the aviation industry. Remember - it is those people in other industries that you will be competing with when you buy your first home, book a holiday or just attempt to keep living the lifestyle you have always aimed for.... VOTE NO TO THIS EBA
Every pilot works extremely hard to get their first position within an airline and then even harder on the long road to a Jet Command. Unfortunately, many management types have very very little idea of the sacrafices made and the work done in order for pilots to achieve this goal.
The current deal put to JETSTAR may look relatively good to some..... However, if you talk to any of your friends (external to the aviation industry) in the bigger cities in Australia (ie: Logistics, IT, Finance) you will quickly realise that many are paid what is on offer to a JETSTAR A330 Captain, only 3-5 years after graduating from university!!!
Do you really think that a Widebody International Aircraft Captain is worth what a recent graduate is worth in other professions???.. I hope not.
For a very lucky few JETSTAR INTERNATIONAL may provide a slightly shorter road to command and a better salary than what they may be currently paid. However, for the majority (and future pilots) this deal will make the road to command all the more difficult financially. It will effectively change the financial rewards associated with the GOAL forever!!
Ask yourself - Do you think anyone else in another professional industry would accept such and erosion in their conditions (QF v JETSTAR)??? I am pretty sure management would not accept any erosion in their conditions!
Professional pilots need to compare their industry/personal terms and conditions against other professions and stop just looking at the aviation industry. Remember - it is those people in other industries that you will be competing with when you buy your first home, book a holiday or just attempt to keep living the lifestyle you have always aimed for.... VOTE NO TO THIS EBA
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Believe them at your peril
Wanna vote based on promised upgrades? You might first ask your cousins up the road at Jetstar Asia who got promised upgrades for A320 F/O's to sign up in late 2004. No upgrades for these boys and some of them are pretty pi**ed off now.
You mention how hard they've worked but then maybe these days thats not the problem. The traditional self funded type is getting less common. More often Mummy paid for it and kept them comfortable whilst they waited. IME these types often don't give a rats about anyone else, or know the true value of a job as they have rarely lived off their own earnings. They mostly care about the wa*k value of a position such as "A330 CPT". They are so desparate for get that job (or verbal "promise" thereof) they'll accept almost anything.
Promises are worthless in this game - get globally marketable renumeration packages and upgrade promises in writing (IRON CLAD, with timelines and no ifs, buts, or maybe clauses) or else forget it. These guys could sell their mothers and still sleep at night - believe them at your peril. You guys (and the F/A's etc) will earn the money, all they do is spin their way from one board meeting to the next, busy copying other LCC's methods, hoping their end of contract bonus comes before the chickens come home to roost.
Wake up guys - the world is getting short of A320/330/340 drivers, have a look at the deals on offer elsewhere - more $$ and much less tax, plus they will treat you as an asset. You are an increasingly valuable commodity. If QF want to pay for foreign contractors, let them try - it will cost them more, be of varying quality and be unreliable for expansion plans in the medium term - and they know it. They are banking on your emotions still being in the game of 5 years ago. The shortages have started, so if you sell out now you've got nothing to look forward to. Mr D and his pet AJ know full well people buy Ozzie brands for their image of safety and will NOT give your jobs to dodgy foreign crews, it would trash their brand value and they know it. Idle threats and bargaining tactics. These guys love using the excuse of "market forces" to screw staff for their own higher profit bonuses - its time they learnt to face the market themselves...
Have some balls and wait it out - thats what mummy would want!
You mention how hard they've worked but then maybe these days thats not the problem. The traditional self funded type is getting less common. More often Mummy paid for it and kept them comfortable whilst they waited. IME these types often don't give a rats about anyone else, or know the true value of a job as they have rarely lived off their own earnings. They mostly care about the wa*k value of a position such as "A330 CPT". They are so desparate for get that job (or verbal "promise" thereof) they'll accept almost anything.
Promises are worthless in this game - get globally marketable renumeration packages and upgrade promises in writing (IRON CLAD, with timelines and no ifs, buts, or maybe clauses) or else forget it. These guys could sell their mothers and still sleep at night - believe them at your peril. You guys (and the F/A's etc) will earn the money, all they do is spin their way from one board meeting to the next, busy copying other LCC's methods, hoping their end of contract bonus comes before the chickens come home to roost.
Wake up guys - the world is getting short of A320/330/340 drivers, have a look at the deals on offer elsewhere - more $$ and much less tax, plus they will treat you as an asset. You are an increasingly valuable commodity. If QF want to pay for foreign contractors, let them try - it will cost them more, be of varying quality and be unreliable for expansion plans in the medium term - and they know it. They are banking on your emotions still being in the game of 5 years ago. The shortages have started, so if you sell out now you've got nothing to look forward to. Mr D and his pet AJ know full well people buy Ozzie brands for their image of safety and will NOT give your jobs to dodgy foreign crews, it would trash their brand value and they know it. Idle threats and bargaining tactics. These guys love using the excuse of "market forces" to screw staff for their own higher profit bonuses - its time they learnt to face the market themselves...
Have some balls and wait it out - thats what mummy would want!
Last edited by El Oso; 25th Feb 2006 at 02:50.
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That last post wins a prize! If your coming over our way in Winter I'll take you skiing at any of three resorts near my house. Summer you can take your pick of a Harley or any of the dirtbikes.
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Summer you can take your pick of a Harley or any of the dirtbikes
However, back home Harleys are known for the ****boxes they really are We call them "Cattle Dogs"......Because they love to go out for a run in the morning....But always come home in the back of the ute!
Sorry mate, but I couldn't resist
And I've been riding bikes for 30 years 
I'll take the KTM also
Grandpa Aerotart
Datum,
Do you really think you'll get much sympathy from those who go to an office for 40++ hrs a week?
How do you think they will react when you tell em you actually work about 10-12 days a mth and the rest of the time you are either off at home or off downroute at various holiday destinations?
Yes overnights do get old...yes you spend a significant proportion of your time there asleep.
Do you really think they will have THAT much sympathy?
Yes we miss lots of family things...mind you I am a long haul pilot and I had leave last xmass for 3 weeks and I was home for my daughters birthday yesterday...she went KL to see her boyfriend who moved there recently for college.
Every job that pays the money we get requires that you miss family stuff from time to time.
25 yrs ago when I was driving taxis (BTW about 70 hrs a week for about 5% of what I net now) while learning to fly. I would OFTEN pick up Lawyers and take them home after work..at 10pm...and they left for work at 6am...and they take work home on weekends.
Ask a hospital doctor what hrs he is required to work.
Both those jobs require huge commitment, long study and sacrifice...and the AVERAGE Doctor or Lawyer probably doesn't make more than the AVERAGE airline pilot.
My sister in law is a high powered Barrister in Sydney...probably the legal profession equivalent of a mainline captain....she works HUGE hrs....and gets paid less than a 744 Captain.
I am not trying to drag down my profession...but reality has to intervene somewhere.
The plane fact is for the amount of actual work we do we are paid well.....you'll get no sympathy from most non aviation professionals.
Do you really think you'll get much sympathy from those who go to an office for 40++ hrs a week?
How do you think they will react when you tell em you actually work about 10-12 days a mth and the rest of the time you are either off at home or off downroute at various holiday destinations?
Yes overnights do get old...yes you spend a significant proportion of your time there asleep.
Do you really think they will have THAT much sympathy?
Yes we miss lots of family things...mind you I am a long haul pilot and I had leave last xmass for 3 weeks and I was home for my daughters birthday yesterday...she went KL to see her boyfriend who moved there recently for college.
Every job that pays the money we get requires that you miss family stuff from time to time.
25 yrs ago when I was driving taxis (BTW about 70 hrs a week for about 5% of what I net now) while learning to fly. I would OFTEN pick up Lawyers and take them home after work..at 10pm...and they left for work at 6am...and they take work home on weekends.
Ask a hospital doctor what hrs he is required to work.
Both those jobs require huge commitment, long study and sacrifice...and the AVERAGE Doctor or Lawyer probably doesn't make more than the AVERAGE airline pilot.
My sister in law is a high powered Barrister in Sydney...probably the legal profession equivalent of a mainline captain....she works HUGE hrs....and gets paid less than a 744 Captain.
I am not trying to drag down my profession...but reality has to intervene somewhere.
The plane fact is for the amount of actual work we do we are paid well.....you'll get no sympathy from most non aviation professionals.
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Chimbu,
Not so sure about the comparability of flight crew to other professionals…at least in terms of security of tenure.
The doctor, the lawyer, the dentist, the teacher and even the candlestick maker can reasonably expect to continue in their business or job for a number of years despite not being a high flyer (no pun intended) unless they stuff up in a major way. Most others have much lower levels of job scrutiny applied unlike airline pilots where underperformance can easily and quite quickly = no job + little likelihood of soon obtaining another with similar conditions.
Few other professionals would have to face the prospect of the equivalent of maybe not passing that next six monthly sim ride. Or of say the discovery of a medical condition which would still allow them to continue driving but not retain their job. Eg a heart murmur (I used this example cause people around here lately have been suggesting that pilots don’t have hearts).
The above paragraph has ramifications for anyone considering a pay offer. What you deem acceptable now isn’t much use if you are no longer earning it 3 or 5 years down the track.
Not so sure about the comparability of flight crew to other professionals…at least in terms of security of tenure.
The doctor, the lawyer, the dentist, the teacher and even the candlestick maker can reasonably expect to continue in their business or job for a number of years despite not being a high flyer (no pun intended) unless they stuff up in a major way. Most others have much lower levels of job scrutiny applied unlike airline pilots where underperformance can easily and quite quickly = no job + little likelihood of soon obtaining another with similar conditions.
Few other professionals would have to face the prospect of the equivalent of maybe not passing that next six monthly sim ride. Or of say the discovery of a medical condition which would still allow them to continue driving but not retain their job. Eg a heart murmur (I used this example cause people around here lately have been suggesting that pilots don’t have hearts).
The above paragraph has ramifications for anyone considering a pay offer. What you deem acceptable now isn’t much use if you are no longer earning it 3 or 5 years down the track.
Grandpa Aerotart
180k is roughly 4-5 times the national average wage...how much more of a premium do you think is appropriate for 1 weeks recurrent study, 8 hrs in the sim and a quick medical every 6 or 12 mths?
The 'risks' associated with our recurrent training and medical requirements are vastly overstated.
Don't get me wrong if current trends in the aviation world lead to higher wages...which they already are in many cases...I will be a very happy camper...but you'll NEVER convince beancounters to pay 20% more than they abolutely have to based on any of the arguments postulated here...it will NEVER happen.
In the expat world though things are slowly swinging back our way...pay is going up...if you don't like what is on offer in Oz vote with your feet...it is the ONLY option open to any pilot anywhere in the end....who knows...if enough leave and not enough expats come home pay in Oz may well rise....more likely they will just lower the requirements for new FOs and Oz will be like the rest of the world...relatively experienced pilot in the LHS and 500 hr wonder in the right...where I work we have very competent 30 yr old captains who changed seats with 5000 TT and 12-1500 jet, and that's longhaul widebody...what's the average in Oz?
Still think they won't fill the seats at Jetstar?
The 'risks' associated with our recurrent training and medical requirements are vastly overstated.
Don't get me wrong if current trends in the aviation world lead to higher wages...which they already are in many cases...I will be a very happy camper...but you'll NEVER convince beancounters to pay 20% more than they abolutely have to based on any of the arguments postulated here...it will NEVER happen.
In the expat world though things are slowly swinging back our way...pay is going up...if you don't like what is on offer in Oz vote with your feet...it is the ONLY option open to any pilot anywhere in the end....who knows...if enough leave and not enough expats come home pay in Oz may well rise....more likely they will just lower the requirements for new FOs and Oz will be like the rest of the world...relatively experienced pilot in the LHS and 500 hr wonder in the right...where I work we have very competent 30 yr old captains who changed seats with 5000 TT and 12-1500 jet, and that's longhaul widebody...what's the average in Oz?
Still think they won't fill the seats at Jetstar?
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Chimbu,
What we are talking about is attracting the skillset to the flightdeck that could have been a doctor, a barrister or a succesful company CEO. What other company lets you run around with all that potential liability at one time without paying you properly?
The yanks tried dumbing down training years back and the insurance companies have put higher and higher experience requirements on their policies. To get back to the basics of the argument, consider Allegheny County Airport in Pittsburgh where they had four Beech Duchess crash in four years, two resulting in fatalities. They now require 2000 tt and 500 hours in type just to rent one! USAir had five crashes in five years, two off the end of the same runway in La Guardia. Is this really the direction you want your "qualified" professionals going in Australia?
In the Jetstar example you have an appeal being made by almost everyone to save the future of collective bargaining in the Australian airline industry. What will you make of the kind of personality and with what personal standards will those people conduct themselves in this profession by going against the wishes of the many? A whole airline full of back-stabbers? That should be a great place to work!
If you don't pay people properly you will attract those with lower abilities, problems in their personal and training backgrounds, lower total time and lower intellect. I've seen the damage this has done.
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys on the job!
El Oso,
www.7springs.com
www.hiddenvalleyresort.com
We live 65 miles East of PIT
What we are talking about is attracting the skillset to the flightdeck that could have been a doctor, a barrister or a succesful company CEO. What other company lets you run around with all that potential liability at one time without paying you properly?
The yanks tried dumbing down training years back and the insurance companies have put higher and higher experience requirements on their policies. To get back to the basics of the argument, consider Allegheny County Airport in Pittsburgh where they had four Beech Duchess crash in four years, two resulting in fatalities. They now require 2000 tt and 500 hours in type just to rent one! USAir had five crashes in five years, two off the end of the same runway in La Guardia. Is this really the direction you want your "qualified" professionals going in Australia?
In the Jetstar example you have an appeal being made by almost everyone to save the future of collective bargaining in the Australian airline industry. What will you make of the kind of personality and with what personal standards will those people conduct themselves in this profession by going against the wishes of the many? A whole airline full of back-stabbers? That should be a great place to work!
If you don't pay people properly you will attract those with lower abilities, problems in their personal and training backgrounds, lower total time and lower intellect. I've seen the damage this has done.
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys on the job!
El Oso,
www.7springs.com
www.hiddenvalleyresort.com
We live 65 miles East of PIT
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 25th Feb 2006 at 12:48.
Grandpa Aerotart
Agree with everything in your post Chris....now tell us how to convince the QF beancounters that they should pay 220K for a Jetstar A330/787 captain....nothing airy fairy...cold hard indisputable fact that even a beany would agree with.
Chuck.
Chuck.
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Human error always was and always will be the primary contributor to the majority of accidents in any industry. The quality of work performance underpinned by morale, commitment, aptitude and check and training by each individual in each industry determines the safety record irrespective of the risks specific to each setting.
Safety is the crux and QF's primary claim to fame. Its not exactly head and shoulders over the others in terms of service or value for your $.
I would pose the beencounters at QF one question.....
Based on QF's unique market niche through its claim to fame, can the company afford just one major accident and have any hope of retaining market share?
Even a beancounter knows what the term 'Captain' implies and so the absolute need to attract and retain the very best people. This is still an economic arguement but one from the standpoint of medium to long term success as opposed to short term.
Safety is the crux and QF's primary claim to fame. Its not exactly head and shoulders over the others in terms of service or value for your $.
I would pose the beencounters at QF one question.....
Based on QF's unique market niche through its claim to fame, can the company afford just one major accident and have any hope of retaining market share?
Even a beancounter knows what the term 'Captain' implies and so the absolute need to attract and retain the very best people. This is still an economic arguement but one from the standpoint of medium to long term success as opposed to short term.
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Lookin Down and Chimbu
What you don't want to do is harp back to old rhetoric of 1989 and Bob Hawke. The way you win an argument is with a fresh view on an old problem that answers the other parties concerns about the way they sell the argument back to the board and to the shareholders.
We at Netjets just ended employment contracts, obtained 30-40 percent raises and ordered 119 new jets. We are hiring 475 pilots in 2006. We now have more former Air Force One pilots working for us than any other operator in the world. Not to make anyone mad, but I'll make more this year flying a Cessna product than your Jetstar agreement is proposing to its wide-body captains. Our top out on the BBJ, a 737 variant is higher than QF pays its most senior mainline to fly 744s.
There's a saying in gambling, that "no good gambler ever gambles more than they can afford to lose". Sadly, we are constantly shown that accident rates are higher for carriers that introduce lower payscales. It happened at Continental with Lorenzo, it happened at Pinnacle with the Regional Jet that flamed out both in a stall over the midwest, it happened at Mesa in Charlotte when a captain with only 2500tt took off with an aft CG on an aircraft that was improperly rigged and crashed out of control, rather than reduce power and land on the remaining 8,000 feet of runway.
If you think paying to prevent having an accident is expensive; try having one.
There is much at stake in Australia right now with this decision. Tourism is a major export earner. Many people who cannot afford a coach fare on Qantas mainline won't be spending much once they get there anyway. Is this the road you really want the tourism industry to go?
I just received an e-mail from Qantas Travel about a quick special out of LAX for $699 round trip to Sydney. The ticket to LAX from PIT would cost more and we all know that at $699 round trip, QF is not even covering the cost to start all four engines, let alone making me contribute my fair share to get to Sydney.
Netjets has sold itself on being the safest operation of its kind. It was the one thing that stopped me in my tracks and made me think before considering a management positon at Alaska Airlines or to go back for the second interview at Southwest. We have Flight Safety do the training, they are audited as a fellow Berkshire Hathaway company. It sometimes seems like our new-hires and upgrades are put before the firing squad over there; not everyone makes it out the other side. Really though, there's no other way. Safety has a price to pay in washout rates to obtain high standards. The training events are very expensive which when combined with the lack of availability of simulators, the company can get short on crews.
This is the price that Netjets has decided to pay to fly almost 600 aircraft on non-scheduled operations each day in worldwide operation. There are 5,000 airports alone in the US that we go to. The point I'm making is this: how long would we stay in business if we conducted ourselves in any other way?
Qantas has a business to support, but it has a responsibility to the passengers and the innocent populations who know nothing about flying to protect them from a B-787 going through their living room window. There are no guarantees, given the complex variables of this industry to ensure that this will never happen, but it is less likely to happen with the best crew that money can buy.
The saddest thing about airlines that go through this pendulum shift is that the damage they are doing is not known sometimes for many years. When this happens, the CEOs and other management who should bare responsibility are long gone.
What you don't want to do is harp back to old rhetoric of 1989 and Bob Hawke. The way you win an argument is with a fresh view on an old problem that answers the other parties concerns about the way they sell the argument back to the board and to the shareholders.
We at Netjets just ended employment contracts, obtained 30-40 percent raises and ordered 119 new jets. We are hiring 475 pilots in 2006. We now have more former Air Force One pilots working for us than any other operator in the world. Not to make anyone mad, but I'll make more this year flying a Cessna product than your Jetstar agreement is proposing to its wide-body captains. Our top out on the BBJ, a 737 variant is higher than QF pays its most senior mainline to fly 744s.
There's a saying in gambling, that "no good gambler ever gambles more than they can afford to lose". Sadly, we are constantly shown that accident rates are higher for carriers that introduce lower payscales. It happened at Continental with Lorenzo, it happened at Pinnacle with the Regional Jet that flamed out both in a stall over the midwest, it happened at Mesa in Charlotte when a captain with only 2500tt took off with an aft CG on an aircraft that was improperly rigged and crashed out of control, rather than reduce power and land on the remaining 8,000 feet of runway.
If you think paying to prevent having an accident is expensive; try having one.
There is much at stake in Australia right now with this decision. Tourism is a major export earner. Many people who cannot afford a coach fare on Qantas mainline won't be spending much once they get there anyway. Is this the road you really want the tourism industry to go?
I just received an e-mail from Qantas Travel about a quick special out of LAX for $699 round trip to Sydney. The ticket to LAX from PIT would cost more and we all know that at $699 round trip, QF is not even covering the cost to start all four engines, let alone making me contribute my fair share to get to Sydney.
Netjets has sold itself on being the safest operation of its kind. It was the one thing that stopped me in my tracks and made me think before considering a management positon at Alaska Airlines or to go back for the second interview at Southwest. We have Flight Safety do the training, they are audited as a fellow Berkshire Hathaway company. It sometimes seems like our new-hires and upgrades are put before the firing squad over there; not everyone makes it out the other side. Really though, there's no other way. Safety has a price to pay in washout rates to obtain high standards. The training events are very expensive which when combined with the lack of availability of simulators, the company can get short on crews.
This is the price that Netjets has decided to pay to fly almost 600 aircraft on non-scheduled operations each day in worldwide operation. There are 5,000 airports alone in the US that we go to. The point I'm making is this: how long would we stay in business if we conducted ourselves in any other way?
Qantas has a business to support, but it has a responsibility to the passengers and the innocent populations who know nothing about flying to protect them from a B-787 going through their living room window. There are no guarantees, given the complex variables of this industry to ensure that this will never happen, but it is less likely to happen with the best crew that money can buy.
The saddest thing about airlines that go through this pendulum shift is that the damage they are doing is not known sometimes for many years. When this happens, the CEOs and other management who should bare responsibility are long gone.
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 26th Feb 2006 at 03:13.
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For any of the Jetstar Pilots who are considering voting this in: this one's for you!
http://media.putfile.com/Mr-Discount-Airline-Pilot-Guy
http://media.putfile.com/Mr-Discount-Airline-Pilot-Guy
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 26th Feb 2006 at 03:13.