No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
The Govt don't encourage GA in this country because they can't make any money out of us. Our votes come at a too higher cost for them to justify keeping us happy.
Remember the good times people cause the industy will be gone within 10 years.
VB
Remember the good times people cause the industy will be gone within 10 years.
VB
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Originally Posted by farrari
It is a joke, GA is dead and these bimbos in CASA should all be sacked.It's all right for them setting on their 100,00 dollar pay packets, but one day it will all catch up with them, however to late for GA.Why the hell doesn't the GOVT encourage GA in this country.
have not done, that is the problem. Although, he must have been under a very shady tree up north, to not find out about all of this.
Stop railing against the system and start complaining further up the chain with constructive criticism. Start with Truss and your local member, forthwith!
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Points by Gaunty etc. noted, but in Fysh's defence, the first official notification I got from any source was the package of application papers that came in the first couple of weeks of November.
I had already applied before then, but only because of the stuff I was reading on Pprune!
Press releases are all fine, but to not directly mail everyone a clear directive back in March or so is not good enough.
To add insult to injury, some of the press I've seen has been implying that it's the tardy pilots who are at fault.
I had already applied before then, but only because of the stuff I was reading on Pprune!
Press releases are all fine, but to not directly mail everyone a clear directive back in March or so is not good enough.
To add insult to injury, some of the press I've seen has been implying that it's the tardy pilots who are at fault.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fantasy Isthmus
Age: 51
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Originally Posted by Sunfish
I got my request in before 31 December and they appear to have debited my credit card. Exactly what proof do I need to carry?
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Originally Posted by TLAW
And me. Is that, strictly speaking, legal? Can you charge someone for a service you haven't actually provided, even if you intend to?
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
"and any pilots association that is prepared to give a categorical guarantee that there would never be an incident involving their members or their aircraft is obviously flying in the face of reality," he said. "
so...why are the ultralight folks exempt from this? Has the RAA given a "catagorical guarantee"?
Good news is it seems CASA have let the field offices go back to doing the licensng stuff, so that they can use all of their resources in Canberra doing the security checks. I understand there are THREE of these "resources"!
so...why are the ultralight folks exempt from this? Has the RAA given a "catagorical guarantee"?
Good news is it seems CASA have let the field offices go back to doing the licensng stuff, so that they can use all of their resources in Canberra doing the security checks. I understand there are THREE of these "resources"!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
So, the thrust of the matter is.....no ASIC no Fly. well not quite!
As a holder of an Australian ATP I gather I cannot fly into most Australian airports without an ASIC however as I currently reside o/s I haven't yet applied for one because at considerable cost it only lasts 2 years and must then be renewed also at great cost and I'm not expecting to reside in OZ within the 2 years. But wait a minute, I reqularly fly into Australian airports and will be continuing to do so but no ASIC card! Do the powers that be consider I would be more of a risk with just me and/or a few pax on a private flight as opposed to all the unknowns I can fit on the 74?
IMHO nothing more than an empire building, money grabing exercise.
In light of the London bombings I'm readily awaiting the legislation requiring all public bus and train pax to have issued (at their own expense) the equivalent to the ASIC before they are allowed to enter any bus or train station!
As a holder of an Australian ATP I gather I cannot fly into most Australian airports without an ASIC however as I currently reside o/s I haven't yet applied for one because at considerable cost it only lasts 2 years and must then be renewed also at great cost and I'm not expecting to reside in OZ within the 2 years. But wait a minute, I reqularly fly into Australian airports and will be continuing to do so but no ASIC card! Do the powers that be consider I would be more of a risk with just me and/or a few pax on a private flight as opposed to all the unknowns I can fit on the 74?
IMHO nothing more than an empire building, money grabing exercise.
In light of the London bombings I'm readily awaiting the legislation requiring all public bus and train pax to have issued (at their own expense) the equivalent to the ASIC before they are allowed to enter any bus or train station!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NSW
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Dear Mr Gaunty,
Fair go old chap.
Consdier the management and implemenation of the whole new security "stuff".
The TSA (Transport Security Act) was made effective Dec 04. It mandated compliance with the TSR's (Transport Security Regulations) by Jan 05................howvever they had not been produced.
Various drafts had been done and subsequently there was frantic catch-up attempted but true compliance was totally unachievable in the time frame required.
Then came the "chock lock". Simply put, it made an aircraft non stealable if unattended but no definition of "unattended" is given. Is it unattended for a quick coffee on groundside or for a toilet break? For how long? 1miute? 1 hour? 1 day?
But then CASA issued instructions that work order would be required should throttle locks etc be chsoen as method. Satndards of locakable devices were issues which were also ineffetive for a would aircraft thief.
AND then to those of us who attemted to comply with the ASIC requirements back in Feb 2005 consier the follwing:
I tried to get one from Canberra NO. Sydeny NO. Tamworth NO. Port Mcqaurie NO ......DOTARS.........oopsie we have not addressed you people who do not reside airside...............just like the many other 20,000/30,000 pilots in the country.
Would DOTARS issue them. NO that function is delegated to "operators".
So how do i get an ASIC card? We''l get back you but notheing further was received despite repeated requests.
So time goes on. The ASIS card in a nonsense but the background checks aren't and only the most illiterate of computer users would be unable to produce one privately.
Finally, having been intimately involed in Aviation Security mattersfor some decades and having submitted a program in Feb 05 for approval, our company is still waiting for a response, despite the fact that the program submitted has been described as far-reaching and professional.
Please Mr Gaunty a little tolerance, or perhaps an awareness of the history of some of these proposals
Finally, it is not CASA's fault that they have been given the job. They have really been given the "poisoned chalice" by DOTARS in having to try to achieve an impossible goal...........as for the fine..........talk to DOTARS.
IAnd I am waiting for the day I am accosted air side without my ASIC. I have the TV stations number programmed into my mobile.
Best wishes
Gunshy67
Fair go old chap.
Consdier the management and implemenation of the whole new security "stuff".
The TSA (Transport Security Act) was made effective Dec 04. It mandated compliance with the TSR's (Transport Security Regulations) by Jan 05................howvever they had not been produced.
Various drafts had been done and subsequently there was frantic catch-up attempted but true compliance was totally unachievable in the time frame required.
Then came the "chock lock". Simply put, it made an aircraft non stealable if unattended but no definition of "unattended" is given. Is it unattended for a quick coffee on groundside or for a toilet break? For how long? 1miute? 1 hour? 1 day?
But then CASA issued instructions that work order would be required should throttle locks etc be chsoen as method. Satndards of locakable devices were issues which were also ineffetive for a would aircraft thief.
AND then to those of us who attemted to comply with the ASIC requirements back in Feb 2005 consier the follwing:
I tried to get one from Canberra NO. Sydeny NO. Tamworth NO. Port Mcqaurie NO ......DOTARS.........oopsie we have not addressed you people who do not reside airside...............just like the many other 20,000/30,000 pilots in the country.
Would DOTARS issue them. NO that function is delegated to "operators".
So how do i get an ASIC card? We''l get back you but notheing further was received despite repeated requests.
So time goes on. The ASIS card in a nonsense but the background checks aren't and only the most illiterate of computer users would be unable to produce one privately.
Finally, having been intimately involed in Aviation Security mattersfor some decades and having submitted a program in Feb 05 for approval, our company is still waiting for a response, despite the fact that the program submitted has been described as far-reaching and professional.
Please Mr Gaunty a little tolerance, or perhaps an awareness of the history of some of these proposals
Finally, it is not CASA's fault that they have been given the job. They have really been given the "poisoned chalice" by DOTARS in having to try to achieve an impossible goal...........as for the fine..........talk to DOTARS.
IAnd I am waiting for the day I am accosted air side without my ASIC. I have the TV stations number programmed into my mobile.
Best wishes
Gunshy67
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: west in australia
Age: 64
Posts: 53
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did I miss something?
All this talk about having an ASIC is all over the forum in relation to not being permited to fly into the 153 designated airports after 31st of Dec 05..
But what's this bit on the end of the letter I just got from DOTARS..
.
So forget the odd security controlled airport..those who haven't applied for or hold a security check (AVID/ASIC) , it appears you are now not allowed to fly in Australian airspace after 31st Dec 2005..period.
So be sure to hand in your licenses you naughty terrorist pilots!
But what's this bit on the end of the letter I just got from DOTARS..
After 31st December 2005 it is also an offence, with a maximum penalty of 20 penalty units ($2,200) for each breach, if you fly an aircraft in Australian Territory using a CASA issued flight crew licence or special pilot licence without having applied for an aviation security status check....(unless you have made application for or hold an AVID/ASIC etc etc)
So forget the odd security controlled airport..those who haven't applied for or hold a security check (AVID/ASIC) , it appears you are now not allowed to fly in Australian airspace after 31st Dec 2005..period.
So be sure to hand in your licenses you naughty terrorist pilots!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Mr Fysh - if you really are a 737 driver with VB (as your profile would suggest) then you will already have a VB issued ASIC attached to your shirt.
PS - I didn't realise they had a NQ base?
PS - I didn't realise they had a NQ base?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Good one Gunshy67!!
I work in the media and can't wait to be accosted airside by some gun-ho wanna-be security thug at some sleepy hollow of a town such as Taree.
My application is in and if my word isn't good enough that I've applied for this little piece of political plastic then my colleagues would love nothing more than to highlight some bureaucratic bungling in prime time.
I can see the beginning of a story right here.
Cessna 182 pilot notices an oil pressure gauge starting to rise. Might become a problem, may just be a faulty gauge. Better land ASAP.. Nearest strip???? Oh no I don't have my magic pass issued yet!!! Can't go to the nearest; have to push on to another strip 1/2 hour away.
If things go pear shaped your going to have a great lead story on your hands!!!
Come on…. I dare you to ask me where my ASIC is MR Plod!!!
VB
I work in the media and can't wait to be accosted airside by some gun-ho wanna-be security thug at some sleepy hollow of a town such as Taree.
My application is in and if my word isn't good enough that I've applied for this little piece of political plastic then my colleagues would love nothing more than to highlight some bureaucratic bungling in prime time.
I can see the beginning of a story right here.
Cessna 182 pilot notices an oil pressure gauge starting to rise. Might become a problem, may just be a faulty gauge. Better land ASAP.. Nearest strip???? Oh no I don't have my magic pass issued yet!!! Can't go to the nearest; have to push on to another strip 1/2 hour away.
If things go pear shaped your going to have a great lead story on your hands!!!
Come on…. I dare you to ask me where my ASIC is MR Plod!!!
VB
Last edited by Victa Bravo; 13th Jan 2006 at 02:32.
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Mr Gunshy67
Point taken.
I am way closer to whats happe ning than you imagine.
You got the "poisoned chalice" thing right but it was DOTARS to whom it was handed by the Government to implement the Act across ALL transport sectors, the aviation sector as usual being the most visible.
Yes it has been a bit of a trial and the deadline totally impractical even were the implementation not so fraught.
However goodwill and a lot of proactive hard work from CASA and many others produced a recognition by the Minister that there was a problem in execution and hence the "amnesty" provided you had applied.
I know the people directly involved, I spent an hour over some QF Chivas
in the QF Club with them the day or so after the announcement before Christmas, whilst we were waiting for flights. They are delightful people and concerned as you with the problems.
When they tell me that it is the number of different Departments including ASIO involvment and the regulatory machinery and communication issues, not the lack of goodwill between them that divides and hampers the process. I believe them.
When they tell me that they are overwhelmed by the numbers and the complexity of task given them by Governement, the mix and nature of Australian RPT services and multiuser airports, I know from personal; experience exactly of which they speak.
They were given a mammoth task on top of their normal remit without the funds nor the people to execute it.
Why would anybody be surprised that there was a bit of argy bargy getting to the get go.
I can assure you they were moving as fast as the situation changed and their consultation with industry, often daily, revealed holes in the original plan.
Plans are only plans and needs must change as the theatre of operation changes and unthought of issues arise out of it.
The issue time WAS eventually transmitted to and recognised by the Minister.
He took appropriate action, which would have required a sign off by the PM.
Simply lodge the appropriate action before the 31st Dec OR ELSE.
How hard is that.
Think about it before you "stick it' to Mr Plod or the 10 second grab on the TV news.
It's not Mr Plods fault, he is simply doing his job. The TV news ?? is just as likely to side with the Govt as they are with the "terrorist". NO problems if you have done yours.
Besides we are all in this together so why don't you all try to help each other out instead of rattling sabres.
Can I end with a short personal anecdote.
We arrive at a Capital City airport FBO in an N registered aircraft flown by a US crew, on a sales demo, nobody has an ASIC with them (having come from a secondary airport) including the crew, CBs and raining cats and dogs, it is late and dark, the FBO is closed, the pilot/manager of the FBO who has an ASIC and was to escort the potential owner around and from the demo aircraft was delayed orbiting due wx for an approach in a following aircraft. We disembark in a group for a walk around the aircraft and to show the owner the baggage hole and other salient bits. Starts to go tropical downpour, we all head back for the cabin not noticing that the owner had gone in the opposite direction to stand under an awning at the front of the FBO. It goes on, but enter "the security guy" sees "foreign aircraft" guys in black suits (some big=me) milling around with bags, presses the "big red button" on his handset, which sends a message something equivalent to "big trouble in River City". ALL the way to Canberra 
. Flashing lights appear from everywhere.
We discover there are something like 5 separate and armed agencies on the Airport capable of arresting us and/or shooting us down like the terrorist dogs we were.
I mean WE were clearly in the wrong. the security guy WAS doing his job. Amended protocols developed.
Some personal intervention, goodwill and common sense prevailed, but there was a real chance for a while that we, including the owner, were going to become guests of HM Govt .
Lesson learned and another issue revealed to DOTARS about the day to day.
And yes the "potential owner" will be buying an aircraft, question remains as he is not a pilot nor has he any capacity beyond a passenger will he be able to get an ASIC or will he be captive to his crew whilst airside.
Point taken.
I am way closer to whats happe ning than you imagine.
You got the "poisoned chalice" thing right but it was DOTARS to whom it was handed by the Government to implement the Act across ALL transport sectors, the aviation sector as usual being the most visible.
Yes it has been a bit of a trial and the deadline totally impractical even were the implementation not so fraught.
However goodwill and a lot of proactive hard work from CASA and many others produced a recognition by the Minister that there was a problem in execution and hence the "amnesty" provided you had applied.
I know the people directly involved, I spent an hour over some QF Chivas
in the QF Club with them the day or so after the announcement before Christmas, whilst we were waiting for flights. They are delightful people and concerned as you with the problems.When they tell me that it is the number of different Departments including ASIO involvment and the regulatory machinery and communication issues, not the lack of goodwill between them that divides and hampers the process. I believe them.
When they tell me that they are overwhelmed by the numbers and the complexity of task given them by Governement, the mix and nature of Australian RPT services and multiuser airports, I know from personal; experience exactly of which they speak.
They were given a mammoth task on top of their normal remit without the funds nor the people to execute it.
Why would anybody be surprised that there was a bit of argy bargy getting to the get go.
I can assure you they were moving as fast as the situation changed and their consultation with industry, often daily, revealed holes in the original plan.
Plans are only plans and needs must change as the theatre of operation changes and unthought of issues arise out of it.
The issue time WAS eventually transmitted to and recognised by the Minister.
He took appropriate action, which would have required a sign off by the PM.
Simply lodge the appropriate action before the 31st Dec OR ELSE.
How hard is that.
Think about it before you "stick it' to Mr Plod or the 10 second grab on the TV news.
It's not Mr Plods fault, he is simply doing his job. The TV news ?? is just as likely to side with the Govt as they are with the "terrorist". NO problems if you have done yours.
Besides we are all in this together so why don't you all try to help each other out instead of rattling sabres.
Can I end with a short personal anecdote.
We arrive at a Capital City airport FBO in an N registered aircraft flown by a US crew, on a sales demo, nobody has an ASIC with them (having come from a secondary airport) including the crew, CBs and raining cats and dogs, it is late and dark, the FBO is closed, the pilot/manager of the FBO who has an ASIC and was to escort the potential owner around and from the demo aircraft was delayed orbiting due wx for an approach in a following aircraft. We disembark in a group for a walk around the aircraft and to show the owner the baggage hole and other salient bits. Starts to go tropical downpour, we all head back for the cabin not noticing that the owner had gone in the opposite direction to stand under an awning at the front of the FBO. It goes on, but enter "the security guy" sees "foreign aircraft" guys in black suits (some big=me) milling around with bags, presses the "big red button"
on his handset, which sends a message something equivalent to "big trouble in River City". ALL the way to Canberra . Flashing lights appear from everywhere. We discover there are something like 5 separate and armed agencies on the Airport capable of arresting us and/or shooting us down like the terrorist dogs we were.
I mean WE were clearly in the wrong.
the security guy WAS doing his job. Amended protocols developed.Some personal intervention, goodwill and common sense prevailed, but there was a real chance for a while that we, including the owner, were going to become guests of HM Govt .
Lesson learned and another issue revealed to DOTARS about the day to day.
And yes the "potential owner" will be buying an aircraft, question remains as he is not a pilot nor has he any capacity beyond a passenger will he be able to get an ASIC or will he be captive to his crew whilst airside.
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Gaunty,
If you as close as you say you are, ask Paul Trottman (adviser to the minister)and a few others, why we are being singled out for treatment, and why they won't elaborate on what sort of risk we are. Also, why haven't Truckies, Boaties and the RAA(ultralights etc) been subject to the same treatment?
Where was the consultation? The risk assessment paper that this is based on, did not consult anyone other than airline types as far as I can ascertain.
Please enlighten me!
If you as close as you say you are, ask Paul Trottman (adviser to the minister)and a few others, why we are being singled out for treatment, and why they won't elaborate on what sort of risk we are. Also, why haven't Truckies, Boaties and the RAA(ultralights etc) been subject to the same treatment?
Where was the consultation? The risk assessment paper that this is based on, did not consult anyone other than airline types as far as I can ascertain.
Please enlighten me!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: australia
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Sept 11 happened over 5 years ago...............nothing happened here since..........why the fark do we have to go through this stupid process any longer???!!!!........it is a pointless exercise and nothing more than a scare mongering process initiated by morons, executed by incompetents and backed up by by small willied individuals in the population who would be far more useful and no doubt happier employed as proof readers by whatever publishing house that is responsible for the SAS Survival Guide
Here endeth the rant...nurse more beer please
PS....Gaunty....stop associating with bureaucrats...you'll get a reputation
Here endeth the rant...nurse more beer please
PS....Gaunty....stop associating with bureaucrats...you'll get a reputation
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Originally Posted by bigfella5
Sept 11 happened over 5 years ago...............nothing happened here since..........why the fark do we have to go through this stupid process any longer?
It's a bit like worrying about illegal immigrants and terrorism. Hello! The Sept 11 guys were all in the USA legally.
All any of this does is make it more difficult for Joe Average Pilot to do their job.
Edited to add paragraph breaks that the preview function seemed to have removed.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
Well said Bigfella5. my thoughts excatly. biggest friggen load of crap the govmint ever spewed.
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !
185skywagon
No need to ask because you are NOT being singled out for treatment.
EVERY form of transport including truckies and boaties AND the RAA is/has been assessed for risk, by the people who understand risk assessment in the transport milieu.
Discussion papers? risk assessment papers? c'mon, why dont we just set up a help line for the bad guys to find out where and what we are going to target next.
bigfella5 mate not even a little bit close, my eldest daughter (highly experienced and multi degreed with Honours) is quite a senior bureaucrat and seconded to a Minister as a departmental adviser, she like the great majority that I know are consummate, dedicated and committed professionals in the service of the public.
AerocatS2A makes a compelling point, but it is not a justification for sitting on our hands.
You do what you can and try to stay in front of the game the terrorists play.
Events have shown that whilst it is simply not possible to second guess every possible scenario, if you close off the really obvious ones, you are as far as you can get in concentrating your resources on where the intelligence tells you the localised action is likely.
Why is everybody so paranoid about this subject?? and why are you behaving as if the Govt and their anti-terrorist policies are aimed at YOU personally.
I suspect if it wasn't this it would be something else you'd be complaining about. One minute it is the CASA regs, another it is the Govt trying to "kill GA" then it is Airservices or CASA trying to do you in. Get a life will ya.
Before you go to sleep tonight, just check under your bed for reds, I'd be surprised if you find any, but as the Brits have found, you never know where you are going to find the bad guys.
Saw a photograph in the local rag the other day of "Asian ornamental martial arts weapons" confiscated by Customs, supposedly being imported for "genuine collectors".
Very very scary stuff and you can only imagine what, if anything, is going through the minds of the collectors.
The importers were doing the usual whining about Govt interference with their "rights".
That they were exactly the same sort of weapons used recently in a truly sickeningly vicious gang attack is apparently a coincidence. There are parts of every city in Australia that are definitely "no go zones" at night and entered with caution during the day. It never used to be like this.
A close friend is the Director of Security for a large Multinational, he spends his life visiting the companies sites around the world, there is not one that does not have a definable threat and this is for a company that provides significant employment, social benefits and investment to the area.
They have not given up, they will try again, we have been, with many other countries specifically targeted.
Lets get rational shall we.
No need to ask because you are NOT being singled out for treatment.
EVERY form of transport including truckies and boaties AND the RAA is/has been assessed for risk, by the people who understand risk assessment in the transport milieu.
Discussion papers? risk assessment papers? c'mon, why dont we just set up a help line for the bad guys to find out where and what we are going to target next.
bigfella5 mate not even a little bit close, my eldest daughter (highly experienced and multi degreed with Honours) is quite a senior bureaucrat and seconded to a Minister as a departmental adviser, she like the great majority that I know are consummate, dedicated and committed professionals in the service of the public.
AerocatS2A makes a compelling point, but it is not a justification for sitting on our hands.
You do what you can and try to stay in front of the game the terrorists play.
Events have shown that whilst it is simply not possible to second guess every possible scenario, if you close off the really obvious ones, you are as far as you can get in concentrating your resources on where the intelligence tells you the localised action is likely.
Why is everybody so paranoid about this subject?? and why are you behaving as if the Govt and their anti-terrorist policies are aimed at YOU personally.
I suspect if it wasn't this it would be something else you'd be complaining about. One minute it is the CASA regs, another it is the Govt trying to "kill GA" then it is Airservices or CASA trying to do you in. Get a life will ya.
Before you go to sleep tonight, just check under your bed for reds, I'd be surprised if you find any, but as the Brits have found, you never know where you are going to find the bad guys.
Saw a photograph in the local rag the other day of "Asian ornamental martial arts weapons" confiscated by Customs, supposedly being imported for "genuine collectors".
Very very scary stuff and you can only imagine what, if anything, is going through the minds of the collectors.
The importers were doing the usual whining about Govt interference with their "rights".
That they were exactly the same sort of weapons used recently in a truly sickeningly vicious gang attack is apparently a coincidence.
There are parts of every city in Australia that are definitely "no go zones" at night and entered with caution during the day. It never used to be like this.A close friend is the Director of Security for a large Multinational, he spends his life visiting the companies sites around the world, there is not one that does not have a definable threat and this is for a company that provides significant employment, social benefits and investment to the area.
They have not given up, they will try again, we have been, with many other countries specifically targeted.
Lets get rational shall we.