be58 spiral dive recovery?
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John,
Please don't think that I was saying you are wrong. It may very well be the case with the baron, but with my experience in the aircraft, and my experience spinning aircraft, I don't understand how it could spin inverted from a standard stall entry. The aircraft will enter an inverted attitude, during the first turn of the spin, which, I guess could be interpreted as an inverted spin, if the aircraft is recovered prior to completion of the first turn. Mind you though, I have never spun a baron, (and don't intend to), so I wouldn't know. I would be interested in any texts or references yourself, or anyone would have as to the spin characteristics of the baron, or twins in general.
Please don't think that I was saying you are wrong. It may very well be the case with the baron, but with my experience in the aircraft, and my experience spinning aircraft, I don't understand how it could spin inverted from a standard stall entry. The aircraft will enter an inverted attitude, during the first turn of the spin, which, I guess could be interpreted as an inverted spin, if the aircraft is recovered prior to completion of the first turn. Mind you though, I have never spun a baron, (and don't intend to), so I wouldn't know. I would be interested in any texts or references yourself, or anyone would have as to the spin characteristics of the baron, or twins in general.
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Woomera:
OK, here is a survivor owning up (but only after several Strongbows at the M. Club....where BTW, I have not espied the local Woomeri lately)
I got a Baron into a spiral dive just after an Instrument Departure in IMC on a partial panel in the not very distant past. I am sending the tale into Flight Safety as there were several interesting lessons to learn from it. Obviously, it is survivable........ I can also report it ain't much fun either.
OK, here is a survivor owning up (but only after several Strongbows at the M. Club....where BTW, I have not espied the local Woomeri lately)
I got a Baron into a spiral dive just after an Instrument Departure in IMC on a partial panel in the not very distant past. I am sending the tale into Flight Safety as there were several interesting lessons to learn from it. Obviously, it is survivable........ I can also report it ain't much fun either.
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G'Day Mate. Paid up two years Membership at the M Club - but never seem to be in town to enjoy the benefits.
Time you dropped in for coffee - or should I drop around to your big hangar? Out of town most of next week.
Woomera
Time you dropped in for coffee - or should I drop around to your big hangar? Out of town most of next week.
Woomera
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Chuckles / tinpis
The same chap would and could demo a fully developed stall into a spin with 1 or 2 turns recovery in a BN2A ...... just proved to me Islanders had a dummy spit.
Windy
The same chap would and could demo a fully developed stall into a spin with 1 or 2 turns recovery in a BN2A ...... just proved to me Islanders had a dummy spit.
Windy
Tinpis. It really makes you wonder what sort of first class idiots flew in PNG in those days. The bloke that pulled that stupid act on you during the endorsement should have been sacked on landing. We had a few of those flying fools in the RAAF back in the Fifties and we lost aeroplanes because of it. Was PNG DCA aware of the shenanigans that went on under their noses - or like now were they simply not interested.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Or indeed would they now recognise it.?
Nearly broke an FOI's fingers, during an Instrument renewal when he attempted a seriously stupid act that would have brought us down.
He meant well but apparently had not so far run across a "victim" who actually knew the consequences of his ill conceived "ideas".
Neither was he used to a "candidate" terminating the exercise and returning to base with the request for someone to conduct the test who actually knew what he was doing and yes he was ex RAAF.
Nearly broke an FOI's fingers, during an Instrument renewal when he attempted a seriously stupid act that would have brought us down.
He meant well but apparently had not so far run across a "victim" who actually knew the consequences of his ill conceived "ideas".
Neither was he used to a "candidate" terminating the exercise and returning to base with the request for someone to conduct the test who actually knew what he was doing and yes he was ex RAAF.
Moderator
I did a few renewals with FOIs .. generally good lads ... and the standard brief was along the lines of "touch it below 200 feet and I'll close both and land ahead ... "
Got some indignant looks ... but no-one ever was game to try me on... I've better things to risk my life on than playing the idiot at low level ..
Another tale always brings a smile ... a mate, needing a renewal at a location which had nothing on which he was endorsed, combined a light twin endorsement with the renewal to get the thing out of the way.
.. the instructor was adamant about Vmc demonstrations .. and you know my thoughts on that nonsense. Anyway, my buddy caused the instructor great consternation by using only part rudder deflection with his other foot locking further pedal movement .. the instructor was last heard wandering off muttering "can't understand why it didn't get any slower ..."
I think my buddy was a much more experienced instructor than the GA chappie ...
Jamair .. care to tell us a few of the details ?
Got some indignant looks ... but no-one ever was game to try me on... I've better things to risk my life on than playing the idiot at low level ..
Another tale always brings a smile ... a mate, needing a renewal at a location which had nothing on which he was endorsed, combined a light twin endorsement with the renewal to get the thing out of the way.
.. the instructor was adamant about Vmc demonstrations .. and you know my thoughts on that nonsense. Anyway, my buddy caused the instructor great consternation by using only part rudder deflection with his other foot locking further pedal movement .. the instructor was last heard wandering off muttering "can't understand why it didn't get any slower ..."
I think my buddy was a much more experienced instructor than the GA chappie ...
Jamair .. care to tell us a few of the details ?
Don Quixote Impersonator
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john_t and that's the problem, isn't it.
There doesn't NOW seem to be a "standard" idea of what's the
go.
The "coprorate intelectual property" that used to exist has long gone when they saw the enthusiastic amateur trying to run the show with his voodoo ideas and economics.
My thesis is that when the major manufacturers left the marketplace in the early 80's the concentration of experience in training, maintenance and management went with it.
A bit like the effect of Holden, Ford and Toyota all shutting up shop tomorrow and abandoning the the market place to the usual suspects.
I know personally and was trained by the individuals who "own" the original Australian "endorsements and ratings" for most of the GA types and had I an instructor rating, I too would have been one of those.
When those of us who were there get together, all too rarely, we all have new tales of well motivated but totally wild SOPS that have mysteriously appeared somewhere.
I call it the Prince of Wales Syndrome" from the song that sadly you and I can still recall.
It goes something like , "I danced with a man who danced with a girl who danced with the Prince of Wales.
Problem is most of the "endorsements and ratings" around the place may be hundreds of generations away from the factory or Flight Safety, including those who sell training, using illegally, the same Flight Safety material that has been photcopied down the same number of generations.
Australian organisations including the regulator, maybe now in the past, seem oblivious to the copyright or liability issues.
For example the manufacturers reps in Oz used to have to pay for the test flying and production of "P charts and other regulatory matters peculiar to Oz for any new type or models regbistration.
There was a significant cost to achieve this, often requiring in addition, the funding of a departmental entourage to the factory, which was retrieved as part of the sales process.
If you wanted to import an aircraft outside this system one of the hurdles was gaining the rights to use the proprietary information, usually requiring a "licence" fee to the owner of the info.
Unless of course you had a mate who would "lend" you his charts or a friendly departmental guy who would give you a Departmental copy.
We used to sell the CPC integtrated theory and training and train the instructors on it.
It was for the most part possible at that stage, to iron out any "guru", "aero club bar" and "urban myth" infestations.
When we endorsed or rated the original crews on their new equipment they got the benefit of learning the way the manufacturer had intended, and had spent several gazillion dollars finding out, that the aircraft should be efficiently operated.
Almost without exception, when an owner complained about alleged maintenance and operational shortfalls it was because someone in their organisation had decided that the "guru", "aero club bar" and "urban myth" tellers knew better, sometimes at considerable expense.
I hasten to add that the manufacturers were very keen followers of the Australain experience of their product, because we often used them for applications for which they were not intended and they were usually the lead airframes in fleet hours as a result of which they got early notice of any weaknesses.
Couple that with the department being then staffed with RAAF types who had never been near a GA type and the rest is history.
There doesn't NOW seem to be a "standard" idea of what's the
go.
The "coprorate intelectual property" that used to exist has long gone when they saw the enthusiastic amateur trying to run the show with his voodoo ideas and economics.
My thesis is that when the major manufacturers left the marketplace in the early 80's the concentration of experience in training, maintenance and management went with it.
A bit like the effect of Holden, Ford and Toyota all shutting up shop tomorrow and abandoning the the market place to the usual suspects.
I know personally and was trained by the individuals who "own" the original Australian "endorsements and ratings" for most of the GA types and had I an instructor rating, I too would have been one of those.
When those of us who were there get together, all too rarely, we all have new tales of well motivated but totally wild SOPS that have mysteriously appeared somewhere.
I call it the Prince of Wales Syndrome" from the song that sadly you and I can still recall.
It goes something like , "I danced with a man who danced with a girl who danced with the Prince of Wales.Problem is most of the "endorsements and ratings" around the place may be hundreds of generations away from the factory or Flight Safety, including those who sell training, using illegally, the same Flight Safety material that has been photcopied down the same number of generations.
Australian organisations including the regulator, maybe now in the past, seem oblivious to the copyright or liability issues.
For example the manufacturers reps in Oz used to have to pay for the test flying and production of "P charts and other regulatory matters peculiar to Oz for any new type or models regbistration.
There was a significant cost to achieve this, often requiring in addition, the funding of a departmental entourage to the factory, which was retrieved as part of the sales process.
If you wanted to import an aircraft outside this system one of the hurdles was gaining the rights to use the proprietary information, usually requiring a "licence" fee to the owner of the info.
Unless of course you had a mate who would "lend" you his charts or a friendly departmental guy who would give you a Departmental copy.
We used to sell the CPC integtrated theory and training and train the instructors on it.
It was for the most part possible at that stage, to iron out any "guru", "aero club bar" and "urban myth" infestations.
When we endorsed or rated the original crews on their new equipment they got the benefit of learning the way the manufacturer had intended, and had spent several gazillion dollars finding out, that the aircraft should be efficiently operated.
Almost without exception, when an owner complained about alleged maintenance and operational shortfalls it was because someone in their organisation had decided that the "guru", "aero club bar" and "urban myth" tellers knew better, sometimes at considerable expense.
I hasten to add that the manufacturers were very keen followers of the Australain experience of their product, because we often used them for applications for which they were not intended and they were usually the lead airframes in fleet hours as a result of which they got early notice of any weaknesses.
Couple that with the department being then staffed with RAAF types who had never been near a GA type and the rest is history.
Last edited by gaunty; 26th Nov 2005 at 02:34.
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Think where the centre of gravity is on a '58, then imagine the stall, it wont be nose first, i would imagine it would be rather flat, although not being a '58 pilot i am hardly one to comment, but common sense would factor into my assumptions wouldnt it?
4S
4S
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John Tullamarine:
if Flight Safety doesn't publish it, I'll put it on here. fair 'nuff? I don't mind looking like a goose if it may save someone else the same (or worse) experience.
Gaunty et al:
If I had a banana for every time I've asked 'Why do we do it like this when the POH / FS Manual says do it like that?' and been told 'It works better this way' or 'Because the Chief pilot says' etc; I would open a fruit shop.
Oh yes, and every IR Renewal I've done on a light twin has included my safety brief 'Any EFATO below 300' will be considered genuine and I will shut down and land straight ahead'; never had any raised eyebrows to that, although I tend to stick with more sensible ATOs........
if Flight Safety doesn't publish it, I'll put it on here. fair 'nuff? I don't mind looking like a goose if it may save someone else the same (or worse) experience.
Gaunty et al:
If I had a banana for every time I've asked 'Why do we do it like this when the POH / FS Manual says do it like that?' and been told 'It works better this way' or 'Because the Chief pilot says' etc; I would open a fruit shop.
Oh yes, and every IR Renewal I've done on a light twin has included my safety brief 'Any EFATO below 300' will be considered genuine and I will shut down and land straight ahead'; never had any raised eyebrows to that, although I tend to stick with more sensible ATOs........
Moderator
Gaunty ... sad, isn't it ...
Jamair .. sounds fine to me .. and 300 ft IS better than 200 ft .. but I was young and silly(ier) then and liked to live dangerously .. but never that dangerously intentionally .. I near killed myself on several occasions in blissful ignorance and stupidity ...
Jamair .. sounds fine to me .. and 300 ft IS better than 200 ft .. but I was young and silly(ier) then and liked to live dangerously .. but never that dangerously intentionally .. I near killed myself on several occasions in blissful ignorance and stupidity ...
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Was'nt there an article in the Flight Safety mag some time ago written by an ex PNG Pilot relating how he unintentionally spun an A model 402?
It made interesting reading.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
It made interesting reading.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
