Massey Students! Need your input!
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Massey Students! Need your input!
To everyone in the know of the Massey course: Bachelor of Aviation (Air Transport Pilot)
It would be great if you could enlighten on the requirements of the course. Massey states that all students should have a minimum of year13 maths and physics.
I was wondering how true this is in reality as I did not do Maths nor Physics up to year 13. However, I did score distinctions in both subjects in GCSE. Thus, I was wondering if year 13maths and physics are REALLY required and used in the course, or would my current ability be sufficient?
I may enroll myself in the bridging courses if necessary.
Thanks.
It would be great if you could enlighten on the requirements of the course. Massey states that all students should have a minimum of year13 maths and physics.
I was wondering how true this is in reality as I did not do Maths nor Physics up to year 13. However, I did score distinctions in both subjects in GCSE. Thus, I was wondering if year 13maths and physics are REALLY required and used in the course, or would my current ability be sufficient?
I may enroll myself in the bridging courses if necessary.
Thanks.
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A number of people in my course had only done School Certificate (is that equivalent to GSCE or O levels?) mathematics. 32 out of 33 passed 'Aviation Mathematics' as they called it.
'Aviation Physics' was a bit harder. But with a good GSCE base both are very passable.
'Aviation Physics' was a bit harder. But with a good GSCE base both are very passable.
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Der Masey pilots
I can see from yore dizcushions here that yu ar all brainy wif maths, and I nede your help.
I wosnt brainy enuf to go to a flash skool like Masey. I am now doing some corespondance course to help me lern all that phisics and calculus wot I nede to apply to an airline, but I nede some help wit a maths problem wot my techer gave me for homwerk. it gose like this :
---------------
If I wanted to be an airline pilot and wasn't sure how to go about it, should I
A) spend 3 years and $100,000 just to get a CPL/IR and some mediocre piece of paper that is widely considered utterly worthless by the aviation employer community, and then find at the end of those 3 years that I am unemployable because I still need another 1000 hours total / 100 multi before I can even start submitting my CV to the most lowly of turboprop commuter airlines ...
Or
B) spend 1 year and $50,000 to get myself the same qualification, plus instructor rating, from some other flying school in NZ, get cracking on some instructing and be already knocking on Eagle's door by the time those Massey turkeys have even started studying for their final exams in "aviation calculus and physics"?
-----------
Im relly relly stuk on this one ... I wos wundering if yu cud get yore letcurar from the aviaton mathametics dupartmint to do a cost benafit anulysiz for me
I can see from yore dizcushions here that yu ar all brainy wif maths, and I nede your help.
I wosnt brainy enuf to go to a flash skool like Masey. I am now doing some corespondance course to help me lern all that phisics and calculus wot I nede to apply to an airline, but I nede some help wit a maths problem wot my techer gave me for homwerk. it gose like this :
---------------
If I wanted to be an airline pilot and wasn't sure how to go about it, should I
A) spend 3 years and $100,000 just to get a CPL/IR and some mediocre piece of paper that is widely considered utterly worthless by the aviation employer community, and then find at the end of those 3 years that I am unemployable because I still need another 1000 hours total / 100 multi before I can even start submitting my CV to the most lowly of turboprop commuter airlines ...
Or
B) spend 1 year and $50,000 to get myself the same qualification, plus instructor rating, from some other flying school in NZ, get cracking on some instructing and be already knocking on Eagle's door by the time those Massey turkeys have even started studying for their final exams in "aviation calculus and physics"?
-----------
Im relly relly stuk on this one ... I wos wundering if yu cud get yore letcurar from the aviaton mathametics dupartmint to do a cost benafit anulysiz for me
Quite the snob aren't you Luke? But I suppose as long as it makes you feel better to look down your nose at all the people who choose to do things differently to you it doesn't matter. However you're english may need brushing up on because I think you may have misunderstood the thread, oh well, you are far more superior so who am I to point that out.
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Hey Luke Skybaby
If thats the the way you see it, why the penis envy?
If these turkeys are gonna spend a **** load of more money than you, and you are gonna be out there in the market while they are still in the classroom - then me thinks you should shut it and keep your secret to yourself for your own benefit!
By the way, I'm sure that these "most lowly of turboprop commuter airlines" would love to know your opinion of them.....twa+.
If thats the the way you see it, why the penis envy?
If these turkeys are gonna spend a **** load of more money than you, and you are gonna be out there in the market while they are still in the classroom - then me thinks you should shut it and keep your secret to yourself for your own benefit!
By the way, I'm sure that these "most lowly of turboprop commuter airlines" would love to know your opinion of them.....twa+.
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I'm sorry ... I'm sure it's not as funny from the inside looking out ... but surely even you humourless Palmy North academic geniuses can see the irony in all these Massey boys reckoning they have all these superior maths skills, while every single one of them is sitting there fat dumb and happy getting taken for a big bunch of suckers, wasting a couple of years of potential employability and tens of thousands of dollars.
Anyway bottom of the maths class for the whole lot of you ... special remedial homework assignment time
Please explain why Eagle are so desperate for pilots they are allegedly advertising overseas at present (ref the thread in D&G R&N), when Massey are churning out hundreds of hot sh!t supremely highly trained B.Avs every year?
The only reason I periodically come onto Massey threads and rip the piss out of them, is not for my own amusement at the expense of you guys already there, you're lost causes. It's more in the faint hope that someone still at school, considering Massey as a future training provider will read this stuff, actually THINK about these things and try to see past the sales pitch).
( ... and by the way Cider there is no "secret" about the fact that Massey is the biggest rip off in aviation - it's pretty blindingly obvious to those who bother to go and ask a couple of airline pilots what they think, or do even half a day's research, before they decide which flying school they will park all their $$$. Personally I don't think I'll be bothering the kiwi commuter airlines any time soon ... unless me and haughtney decide to buy one as a little retirement investment in a few years time )
Anyway bottom of the maths class for the whole lot of you ... special remedial homework assignment time
Please explain why Eagle are so desperate for pilots they are allegedly advertising overseas at present (ref the thread in D&G R&N), when Massey are churning out hundreds of hot sh!t supremely highly trained B.Avs every year?The only reason I periodically come onto Massey threads and rip the piss out of them, is not for my own amusement at the expense of you guys already there, you're lost causes. It's more in the faint hope that someone still at school, considering Massey as a future training provider will read this stuff, actually THINK about these things and try to see past the sales pitch).
( ... and by the way Cider there is no "secret" about the fact that Massey is the biggest rip off in aviation - it's pretty blindingly obvious to those who bother to go and ask a couple of airline pilots what they think, or do even half a day's research, before they decide which flying school they will park all their $$$. Personally I don't think I'll be bothering the kiwi commuter airlines any time soon ... unless me and haughtney decide to buy one as a little retirement investment in a few years time
)
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Luke..I'll have you know Im investing quite heavily in a beer gut at the moment...granted a lowish return on investment, but Im sure you'll agree, cheaper than a Massey B Av degree, and ultimately more enjoyable
Like I said the maths stuff is no different to the revision papers that they have you do in the first year of most degrees. Certainly doesn't make anyone a hot **** at maths or physics thats for sure.
I did do a lot of research on the school before I decided to enrol, I first thought about going there at 14 when I was talking to a Malaysia Airlines captain on a sector from KUL to AKL. Since then I spent a lot of time looking into it for the next 4 years and decided that was best for me.
I don't really care how people choose to train in order to do what they want in life, but apparently you feel you have some god-like ability and must tell people what to do. Yes there will always be people that shouldn't be there but thats the same as anything in life, I'm sure the captains you've flown with would atest to that given the attitude you're showing here.
I did do a lot of research on the school before I decided to enrol, I first thought about going there at 14 when I was talking to a Malaysia Airlines captain on a sector from KUL to AKL. Since then I spent a lot of time looking into it for the next 4 years and decided that was best for me.
I don't really care how people choose to train in order to do what they want in life, but apparently you feel you have some god-like ability and must tell people what to do. Yes there will always be people that shouldn't be there but thats the same as anything in life, I'm sure the captains you've flown with would atest to that given the attitude you're showing here.
Last edited by Massey058; 25th Jul 2005 at 22:18.
If the majors are seeking management types from the pilot ranks, it will be those who have some sort of higher education quaification or possibly hold a degree in the management or marketing area that would be most attractive to them.
I don't mean to rubbish any of the above, but to me a Bachelor of Aviation at the end of the day is a fairly meaningless qualification. I'm not actually sure what it qualifies you to do. It certainly doesn't qualify you fly aeroplanes as they should be flown. Having been exposed to some of the gradutes from these programs, I've often come away from the experience wondering what they were actually taught.
I would hope that after spending such a significant amount of money, one would be better positioned to gain a foothold in the industry with an employer. If not, I can't see that it was really worth the effort and expense. Re-read the first sentence.
I don't mean to rubbish any of the above, but to me a Bachelor of Aviation at the end of the day is a fairly meaningless qualification. I'm not actually sure what it qualifies you to do. It certainly doesn't qualify you fly aeroplanes as they should be flown. Having been exposed to some of the gradutes from these programs, I've often come away from the experience wondering what they were actually taught.
I would hope that after spending such a significant amount of money, one would be better positioned to gain a foothold in the industry with an employer. If not, I can't see that it was really worth the effort and expense. Re-read the first sentence.
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Gassed..the biggest trouble I've noticed with Massey Students I've met, is their tendancy to believe the hype, and all the marketing dribble thats spouted their way, however its like that here in the UK where oxford flying college has the dubious honour of producing CPL's with ego's 3 times the size of their skill/experience bank as well.
Im sure the quality of flying instruction that Massey provides is on a par with any other professional flight training organisation, the concern I have is that the cost is excessive, the recognition of the qualifications is dubious at best, and the finished product i.e. the student, is wholly unprepared for the harsh realities of commercial aviation.
Luke..anyone you know still there?
Im sure the quality of flying instruction that Massey provides is on a par with any other professional flight training organisation, the concern I have is that the cost is excessive, the recognition of the qualifications is dubious at best, and the finished product i.e. the student, is wholly unprepared for the harsh realities of commercial aviation.
Luke..anyone you know still there?
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Luke Skytoddler, who said anything about Massey students reckoning that they have superior maths skills? Any Massey student knows that they’ve done an ‘Aviation Maths’ paper which is nothing special, rather is there just to make up the credits. Any pilot that has done a degree that includes first year Calculus or Algebra has studied Maths to a ‘superior’ level than a B.Av. graduate.
How many Massey graduates have insinuated to you that they might be a notch above you in some way because they have superior maths skills? Come on, be honest about this and give us a number. Or did you just assume that this is what Massey students/graduates think?
Please explain why Eagle are desperate for pilots while Massey are churning out hundreds every year?
Umm…well, Eagle may be desperate for pilots with a certain experience level, i.e. captains or pilots with lots of multi IFR experience. Massey are only graduating about 20 pilots a year (they have quite a high drop-out rate). And don’t forget that new CPL-holders from Massey only account for a fraction of the total number of new CPL holders in NZ every year. They may have the highest number of students at any one time but there are lots of other flight schools out there!
Okay, so if one is so inclined…why should they do an aviation degree?
Some people desire to have a bachelors degree as well as a commercial pilot license. They can either go to Auckland University or wherever and study whatever. Personally I think a commerce or management degree might be useful for useful for a pilot long term.
But what about a Bachelor of Aviation? Its basically 3 years of academic studies that all pertains to aviation. Is it all necessary stuff to know to be a good pilot? Absolutely not. But if you’re not overly fussed about what sort of degree you do, you’re prepared to go into a probable life-time of debt and borrow the money to do it, you’re passionate about flying, then why not study aviation!
Here are some of the highlights from my experience:
- Having Dr Gordon Vette has a guest lecturer for an Aviation Human Factors Paper.
- Heavy Aircraft Performance; we had an Air NZ B767 training captain lecturing. Got a good insight into performance considerations of heavy aircraft. (And we each got 20 mins on the B767 sim, which was very motivating! And that’s the sort of thing that a trainee pilot needs about this world of aviation, which as we know can be very difficult, fickle, sometimes cruel.)
- Aviation history. Ask me about Sir George Cayley, Otto Lilienthal, Clement Ader, Samuel Langley…etc. I can tell you about them all!
Aviation maths was not a highlight!
A lot of emphasis is put on Aviation Human Factors and CRM. All of the ATPL subjects are included within the Bachelor of Aviation. Another aspect of the ATPL subjects (this applies also to the PPL and CPL subjects) is that the examinations ask for long answers (i.e. essay type answers), so instead of having multi-guess questions, you are asked to write a paragraph to tell the examiner exactly what you know about a certain topic. Don’t get me wrong. In my mind anyone who has passed all of the NZ ATPL subjects through the normal CAA-administered exams has proven a high level of understanding, but asking Massey students to write specific essays helps justify the degree status of the B.Av.
To get a CPL by way of the Massey B.Av. is a lot more expensive than a CPL needs to be. I can’t argue with you there. And very noble of you I must say Luke to take it upon yourself to be a watchdog for people still at school considering Massey as a training provider. Your sense of civic duty is admirable. But a medical or veterinarian degree isn’t any cheaper and a dentistry degree is more expensive. And its still cheaper than doing a JAR license in the UK.
Gassed Budgie, you’re absolutely right. A B.Av. doesn’t qualify you to do anything. At least not more than any other Bachelors degree. If you study economics or management you learn a lot of theory, but when you get a job most of what you need to know is learnt on-the-job. Most occupational fields are like that.
I’m saying that if you have aptitude for another academic field (be it science, the arts, commerce, administration or whatever) then by all means do that. But if not, and you want to know as much as possible about aviation (in addition to what is taught if the CPL syllabus) then maybe the B. Av. is for you (and providing you’re prepared to accept the financial consequences as previously mentioned!).
Alternatively, stuff academia and just do a CPL! Nothing wrong with that!
Gassed Budgie, you also say that a B.Av, doesn’t qualify pilots to fly aeroplanes as they should be flown. I assume you’ve had experience with Massey graduates and weren’t impressed with their performance? I can’t speak for your experience here but if I’m to be perfectly frank I don’t think that the B.Av, flying program is ideally suited as preparation for grass roots level GA flying. Don’t forget that when Massey started they were sending pilots from a Piper Seminole straight to a B737-500 in Indonesia. Indeed their whole raison d’etre was to train ‘airline ready’ pilots, with superior CRM and multi-crew training etc, as according to their research “that was what was lacking in typical flight training syllabi at the time”. And I’m the first to admit that my Massey training didn’t prepare me that well for a career in GA. But I think you will find that things have changed in recent years. And the bottom line is that if I wasn’t competent to obtain a CPL then the CAA examiner wouldn’t have passed me. And coming back to the on-the-job training theme, that applies to aviation as well! If you want to do mountain flying in Queenstown then you do a specialist course and 50 hours mountain experience down there. If you want to do bush flying in the Northern Territory in OZ then you get properly checked out for that.
Haughtney 1, you wrote that the biggest trouble with Massey students you’ve met is their tendency to believe the hype, and all the marketing dribble etc. That’s very believable. But you mentioned Massey students rather than Massey graduates. Which is more relevant?? Doesn’t really matter what they think when they are students does it? I mean, its not like anyone’s going to consider hiring a student. And whether they believe the hype when they’re a student or not, they’re inevitably going to be exposed to the big bad world where reality will set in.
Incidentally, I chose my PPRuNe alias just after I graduated from Massey. Not due to an over inflated ego but I was certainly green and naïve! And yes quickly leant the harsh realities of the aviation industry. Not long after I regretted choosing that as an alias and thought about getting a new one. But then I thought ‘stuff it, who gives a toss!’
For the record, I’ve got classmates from Massey, who’ve graduated within the last 4 years, who are currently or have recently done the following: Mountain flying in Queesnstown, flying Islanders for Great Barrier Airlines, flying Twin Otters in Tonga, Eagle Air, Origin Pacific, Airwork, flying ERJs in the States (yip, that guy’s done amazingly well), flying 206s and Islanders in Africa, bush flying in Australia and of course instructing (not just with Massey). A pretty typical mix of jobs for newly qualified pilots really. I’ve been in GA (not instructing) for the last 3 years, slowly but surely having built up 1500 hours commercial experience with some good multi time.
Cheers,
..MG
How many Massey graduates have insinuated to you that they might be a notch above you in some way because they have superior maths skills? Come on, be honest about this and give us a number. Or did you just assume that this is what Massey students/graduates think?
Please explain why Eagle are desperate for pilots while Massey are churning out hundreds every year?
Umm…well, Eagle may be desperate for pilots with a certain experience level, i.e. captains or pilots with lots of multi IFR experience. Massey are only graduating about 20 pilots a year (they have quite a high drop-out rate). And don’t forget that new CPL-holders from Massey only account for a fraction of the total number of new CPL holders in NZ every year. They may have the highest number of students at any one time but there are lots of other flight schools out there!
Okay, so if one is so inclined…why should they do an aviation degree?
Some people desire to have a bachelors degree as well as a commercial pilot license. They can either go to Auckland University or wherever and study whatever. Personally I think a commerce or management degree might be useful for useful for a pilot long term.
But what about a Bachelor of Aviation? Its basically 3 years of academic studies that all pertains to aviation. Is it all necessary stuff to know to be a good pilot? Absolutely not. But if you’re not overly fussed about what sort of degree you do, you’re prepared to go into a probable life-time of debt and borrow the money to do it, you’re passionate about flying, then why not study aviation!
Here are some of the highlights from my experience:
- Having Dr Gordon Vette has a guest lecturer for an Aviation Human Factors Paper.
- Heavy Aircraft Performance; we had an Air NZ B767 training captain lecturing. Got a good insight into performance considerations of heavy aircraft. (And we each got 20 mins on the B767 sim, which was very motivating! And that’s the sort of thing that a trainee pilot needs about this world of aviation, which as we know can be very difficult, fickle, sometimes cruel.)
- Aviation history. Ask me about Sir George Cayley, Otto Lilienthal, Clement Ader, Samuel Langley…etc. I can tell you about them all!
Aviation maths was not a highlight!
A lot of emphasis is put on Aviation Human Factors and CRM. All of the ATPL subjects are included within the Bachelor of Aviation. Another aspect of the ATPL subjects (this applies also to the PPL and CPL subjects) is that the examinations ask for long answers (i.e. essay type answers), so instead of having multi-guess questions, you are asked to write a paragraph to tell the examiner exactly what you know about a certain topic. Don’t get me wrong. In my mind anyone who has passed all of the NZ ATPL subjects through the normal CAA-administered exams has proven a high level of understanding, but asking Massey students to write specific essays helps justify the degree status of the B.Av.
To get a CPL by way of the Massey B.Av. is a lot more expensive than a CPL needs to be. I can’t argue with you there. And very noble of you I must say Luke to take it upon yourself to be a watchdog for people still at school considering Massey as a training provider. Your sense of civic duty is admirable. But a medical or veterinarian degree isn’t any cheaper and a dentistry degree is more expensive. And its still cheaper than doing a JAR license in the UK.
Gassed Budgie, you’re absolutely right. A B.Av. doesn’t qualify you to do anything. At least not more than any other Bachelors degree. If you study economics or management you learn a lot of theory, but when you get a job most of what you need to know is learnt on-the-job. Most occupational fields are like that.
I’m saying that if you have aptitude for another academic field (be it science, the arts, commerce, administration or whatever) then by all means do that. But if not, and you want to know as much as possible about aviation (in addition to what is taught if the CPL syllabus) then maybe the B. Av. is for you (and providing you’re prepared to accept the financial consequences as previously mentioned!).
Alternatively, stuff academia and just do a CPL! Nothing wrong with that!
Gassed Budgie, you also say that a B.Av, doesn’t qualify pilots to fly aeroplanes as they should be flown. I assume you’ve had experience with Massey graduates and weren’t impressed with their performance? I can’t speak for your experience here but if I’m to be perfectly frank I don’t think that the B.Av, flying program is ideally suited as preparation for grass roots level GA flying. Don’t forget that when Massey started they were sending pilots from a Piper Seminole straight to a B737-500 in Indonesia. Indeed their whole raison d’etre was to train ‘airline ready’ pilots, with superior CRM and multi-crew training etc, as according to their research “that was what was lacking in typical flight training syllabi at the time”. And I’m the first to admit that my Massey training didn’t prepare me that well for a career in GA. But I think you will find that things have changed in recent years. And the bottom line is that if I wasn’t competent to obtain a CPL then the CAA examiner wouldn’t have passed me. And coming back to the on-the-job training theme, that applies to aviation as well! If you want to do mountain flying in Queenstown then you do a specialist course and 50 hours mountain experience down there. If you want to do bush flying in the Northern Territory in OZ then you get properly checked out for that.
Haughtney 1, you wrote that the biggest trouble with Massey students you’ve met is their tendency to believe the hype, and all the marketing dribble etc. That’s very believable. But you mentioned Massey students rather than Massey graduates. Which is more relevant?? Doesn’t really matter what they think when they are students does it? I mean, its not like anyone’s going to consider hiring a student. And whether they believe the hype when they’re a student or not, they’re inevitably going to be exposed to the big bad world where reality will set in.
Incidentally, I chose my PPRuNe alias just after I graduated from Massey. Not due to an over inflated ego but I was certainly green and naïve! And yes quickly leant the harsh realities of the aviation industry. Not long after I regretted choosing that as an alias and thought about getting a new one. But then I thought ‘stuff it, who gives a toss!’
For the record, I’ve got classmates from Massey, who’ve graduated within the last 4 years, who are currently or have recently done the following: Mountain flying in Queesnstown, flying Islanders for Great Barrier Airlines, flying Twin Otters in Tonga, Eagle Air, Origin Pacific, Airwork, flying ERJs in the States (yip, that guy’s done amazingly well), flying 206s and Islanders in Africa, bush flying in Australia and of course instructing (not just with Massey). A pretty typical mix of jobs for newly qualified pilots really. I’ve been in GA (not instructing) for the last 3 years, slowly but surely having built up 1500 hours commercial experience with some good multi time.
Cheers,
..MG
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Luke toddle wobbles,
What establishment did you train at? The reason I ask is that I will probably have heard through a friend of a friend that it is crap and I just wanted to hang sh*t on it.
What establishment did you train at? The reason I ask is that I will probably have heard through a friend of a friend that it is crap and I just wanted to hang sh*t on it.
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Funny how every single forum about Massey turns out this way. I have to agree with most of what luke is saying, i think the truth hurts.
I dont have a high opinion of the course or the training, im sure the quality is acceptable but i question it's relavence to what students will be doing post course, finding a G.A job. A person with a year or 2 experience in building or any other trade would be far more useful to an employer than one with a good mark in calculas. I think its part of a growing trend of people over-estimating the value of a degree in NZ. You dont need to be steven Hawkings to fly an aeroplane. The best way I've heard it explained is "you dont need to be smart to fly an aeroplane, you just cant be stupid."
In respect to the students flying, I've seen Massey students do some dumb things (taxi into ditches, bust clearences & bogg aircraft in mud to name a few) but no more dumb or frequently than from any other training outfit of a similar size. My main gripe is with the p.r people who are blowing smoke up peoples backsides. If people dont do their homework before signing up its their own fault.
iceblock - Name calling, thats the grown up asnwer. NZ is'nt a big country, the industry is small and masseys reputation far exceeds itself, its no big secret.
I dont have a high opinion of the course or the training, im sure the quality is acceptable but i question it's relavence to what students will be doing post course, finding a G.A job. A person with a year or 2 experience in building or any other trade would be far more useful to an employer than one with a good mark in calculas. I think its part of a growing trend of people over-estimating the value of a degree in NZ. You dont need to be steven Hawkings to fly an aeroplane. The best way I've heard it explained is "you dont need to be smart to fly an aeroplane, you just cant be stupid."
In respect to the students flying, I've seen Massey students do some dumb things (taxi into ditches, bust clearences & bogg aircraft in mud to name a few) but no more dumb or frequently than from any other training outfit of a similar size. My main gripe is with the p.r people who are blowing smoke up peoples backsides. If people dont do their homework before signing up its their own fault.
iceblock - Name calling, thats the grown up asnwer. NZ is'nt a big country, the industry is small and masseys reputation far exceeds itself, its no big secret.