QF Psychometric Testing
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A/F Armed;
all that's well and good, but what the point with this thread is... is that someone who already works in the QAN group as a crash 8 driver (perhaps for many, many years) as a valued and competent employee get's knocked back for "mainline" when the impulse boys and girls (aus airlines before that) just 'slid' under the radar... (not saying they wouldn't pass on they're own merits - but thats a whole other thread
)
all that's well and good, but what the point with this thread is... is that someone who already works in the QAN group as a crash 8 driver (perhaps for many, many years) as a valued and competent employee get's knocked back for "mainline" when the impulse boys and girls (aus airlines before that) just 'slid' under the radar... (not saying they wouldn't pass on they're own merits - but thats a whole other thread
)
AF, the point I was making is that it is not always relevant as you asssume.
"In fact these days it is a fairly common practice for most employers in non aviation sectors to have their potential employees put through a battery of tests to get a better idea of who they are dealing with."
It may be common, but you are making a very large assumption that these tests WILL give "a better idea of who they are dealing with". As far as I know there is no scientific evidence that will stand up in court that any personality tests are relevent for ANY job.
"The suggestion was made that you can learn to pass these tests. Maybe the skills and aptitude but not the psychometrics. You can't fool the system on those two tests, there are too many inbuilt markers that will show if you are being honest or not. "
Sorry, that's just not true. Yes, there are lie score indices, but again, there is NO evidence that this is relevent to anyone's employability. You are making a huge assumption that what is occuring in the test is actually "lying" in the true sense of the word.
Aptitude tests certainly can be learned, there is a HUGE industry in the States preparing people for the GMAT test that you need to sit if you want to get into a good businesss school.
Yes, personality tests can be fooled. It's taught in the HR unit at good MBA schools. I can be an introverted perfectionist who builds their worldview from tiny details in one test and an extroverted "Big picture" person in the next. Myers Briggs can be fooled as well - if you know the theory behind the test, you can be an ESTJ one minute and an INFP the next.
As I said in my first post, it may be relevent to test for aptitudes, depending on the job, however if it is relevent it will have been backed by scientific research demonstrating that there is a statistically significant link between for example test scores and pass/fail rating at flight schools.
U.S. Courts hearing discrimination claims have consistently asked for evidence that personality test scores are relevent to job performance and none provided has ever been shown to be valid.
However, big bucks are made by the testing industry who purport to be able to apply tests that will distinguish between two apparently identical applicants on the basis of a few hours of questioning.
However I will say again that there is no EVIDENCE that it is relevent.
You might just as well choose by the applicants starsign.
"Sorry, you didn't pass the psychometrics" is used regularly by people who wish to discriminate against people who "don't look like one of us." I hope that it doesn't include QF.
"In fact these days it is a fairly common practice for most employers in non aviation sectors to have their potential employees put through a battery of tests to get a better idea of who they are dealing with."
It may be common, but you are making a very large assumption that these tests WILL give "a better idea of who they are dealing with". As far as I know there is no scientific evidence that will stand up in court that any personality tests are relevent for ANY job.
"The suggestion was made that you can learn to pass these tests. Maybe the skills and aptitude but not the psychometrics. You can't fool the system on those two tests, there are too many inbuilt markers that will show if you are being honest or not. "
Sorry, that's just not true. Yes, there are lie score indices, but again, there is NO evidence that this is relevent to anyone's employability. You are making a huge assumption that what is occuring in the test is actually "lying" in the true sense of the word.
Aptitude tests certainly can be learned, there is a HUGE industry in the States preparing people for the GMAT test that you need to sit if you want to get into a good businesss school.
Yes, personality tests can be fooled. It's taught in the HR unit at good MBA schools. I can be an introverted perfectionist who builds their worldview from tiny details in one test and an extroverted "Big picture" person in the next. Myers Briggs can be fooled as well - if you know the theory behind the test, you can be an ESTJ one minute and an INFP the next.
As I said in my first post, it may be relevent to test for aptitudes, depending on the job, however if it is relevent it will have been backed by scientific research demonstrating that there is a statistically significant link between for example test scores and pass/fail rating at flight schools.
U.S. Courts hearing discrimination claims have consistently asked for evidence that personality test scores are relevent to job performance and none provided has ever been shown to be valid.
However, big bucks are made by the testing industry who purport to be able to apply tests that will distinguish between two apparently identical applicants on the basis of a few hours of questioning.
However I will say again that there is no EVIDENCE that it is relevent.
You might just as well choose by the applicants starsign.
"Sorry, you didn't pass the psychometrics" is used regularly by people who wish to discriminate against people who "don't look like one of us." I hope that it doesn't include QF.
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I hope that it doesn't include QF.
You saying that is like a politician declaring his honesty. You would love it to be be prevalent in QF such that you can heap more abuse on to them.
Your motives are transparent, fool. You will make any subject fit your continous tirade against QF. And as others on this and other threads have stated, we are all getting bored with it.
Now Fark off...
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Just for interest:
1. Qantas has been taken to court 5 times regarding their selection process.
2. A number of Ansett pilots were asked to resit the Psych and Skills again some within 3 weeks, now working for QF (Having an endorsement saves money).
3. You can do a number of preparation courses, Pats, Steven Holding and spend a day with a Psychologist doing the latest and greates of airline tests icluding the Minnesota. After 4-6hrs you'll be asked if you answered honestly and if yes " I'll defend you if you want to Take them to Court". Psychologist consider the test an "unprecise tool".
Punch ups, rwy overrun, stall, no rwy lights?????
1. Qantas has been taken to court 5 times regarding their selection process.
2. A number of Ansett pilots were asked to resit the Psych and Skills again some within 3 weeks, now working for QF (Having an endorsement saves money).
3. You can do a number of preparation courses, Pats, Steven Holding and spend a day with a Psychologist doing the latest and greates of airline tests icluding the Minnesota. After 4-6hrs you'll be asked if you answered honestly and if yes " I'll defend you if you want to Take them to Court". Psychologist consider the test an "unprecise tool".
Punch ups, rwy overrun, stall, no rwy lights?????
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Capt Can't:
Regarding Dash8 Drivers not getting into mainline, I hear you. And I sympathise with you. Ultimately, it costs the Qantas group a lot of money through attrition. There's also a great loss in skills and morale within the Regional subsidiaries. As for Australian Airlines, I think there were other issues at stake. It's often a point of great contention around mainline!
Regarding Impulse though, you're incorrect in saying that they've "slid under the radar". Assuming that you're referring to the MOU, they still have to undergo the QF selection process, just as QF guys have to undergo the Jetstar selection process if they wish to go there under the terms of the agreement. There may be an exception though for so called "hotspot" positions in Jetstar. They are only temporary.
WG.
Regarding Dash8 Drivers not getting into mainline, I hear you. And I sympathise with you. Ultimately, it costs the Qantas group a lot of money through attrition. There's also a great loss in skills and morale within the Regional subsidiaries. As for Australian Airlines, I think there were other issues at stake. It's often a point of great contention around mainline!
Regarding Impulse though, you're incorrect in saying that they've "slid under the radar". Assuming that you're referring to the MOU, they still have to undergo the QF selection process, just as QF guys have to undergo the Jetstar selection process if they wish to go there under the terms of the agreement. There may be an exception though for so called "hotspot" positions in Jetstar. They are only temporary.
WG.
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Seems there are 2 camps: those who did get into QF and those who didn't, and therefore the subsequant opinions.
Personally I don't agree with QF's psych and skills. The BEST aptitude / personality testing is only 74% accurate (if my memory from studies are correct). BUT, it is their bat and ball.....
I also don't agree with sitting in a group and building roads and bridges with building blocks while HR and Psych "experts" oversee you and 5 others....... Or the good cop bad cop interview technique for a "behavioural" interview session...... Let's see how much of a rise we can get out of this person idea.
Sure, screen applicants from the initial paper application and CV then use the psych and skills, interview and finally a sim ride as an entire package. Look at CX... what they say is 1000 TT but what they unofficially mean is 3000 TT with 1000 turbine. The QF arguement is money and time though.
I've flown with guys whom I would not associate with outside the workplace for any number of reasons, but as an FO have been a pleasure to work with as they know when to "switch it on".
Just curious, did John Travolta pass the psych and skills? Only reason I ask is that it was spun by QF that he passed all the testing and jumped all the numerous hoops as all QF pilots do. Just asking as I honestly don't know - not be sarcastic.
I've mates at Easterns, Sunnies, VB, QF, Brunei and CX and listened to their thoughts on respective screening systems. Interesting to hear their opinions as to where they are, what it's like and what they want to do. You'd be surprised from where they want to get out of and where they'd go if able.
End of the day, don't apply if you don't agree with the system, the pay, the aeroplane or the conditions. Sour grapes has become so goddam boring.
Personally I don't agree with QF's psych and skills. The BEST aptitude / personality testing is only 74% accurate (if my memory from studies are correct). BUT, it is their bat and ball.....
I also don't agree with sitting in a group and building roads and bridges with building blocks while HR and Psych "experts" oversee you and 5 others....... Or the good cop bad cop interview technique for a "behavioural" interview session...... Let's see how much of a rise we can get out of this person idea.
Sure, screen applicants from the initial paper application and CV then use the psych and skills, interview and finally a sim ride as an entire package. Look at CX... what they say is 1000 TT but what they unofficially mean is 3000 TT with 1000 turbine. The QF arguement is money and time though.
I've flown with guys whom I would not associate with outside the workplace for any number of reasons, but as an FO have been a pleasure to work with as they know when to "switch it on".
Just curious, did John Travolta pass the psych and skills? Only reason I ask is that it was spun by QF that he passed all the testing and jumped all the numerous hoops as all QF pilots do. Just asking as I honestly don't know - not be sarcastic.
I've mates at Easterns, Sunnies, VB, QF, Brunei and CX and listened to their thoughts on respective screening systems. Interesting to hear their opinions as to where they are, what it's like and what they want to do. You'd be surprised from where they want to get out of and where they'd go if able.
End of the day, don't apply if you don't agree with the system, the pay, the aeroplane or the conditions. Sour grapes has become so goddam boring.
Sprucegoose
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Seems there are 2 camps: those who did get into QF and those who didn't,
Cheers, HH.
