150 vs 200 hours CPL (and that darn GST)
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150 vs 200 hours CPL (and that darn GST)
I'm getting there....after talking to a few different instructors and CFIs I have come to see that everyone interprets the rules differently....
I'm on 80 hours and plan on starting my CPL, now theoretically I should just choose a school that I like and want to learn with, but I've found money is going to be an influential factor. Some schools say I can do the 150 hour course, while others are telling me I need to do the 200 hour course because I'm not starting "from the beginning in an integrated course". On top of that, some schools are saying I will not have to pay GST, while others are saying I will. Now if you compare 70 hours of GST exclusive flying to 120 hours of GST inclusive flying there's a big difference! I could hazard a guess as to which way things *should* be, but why is there such a discrepency? And am I wrong to try save myself >$10K???
I'm on 80 hours and plan on starting my CPL, now theoretically I should just choose a school that I like and want to learn with, but I've found money is going to be an influential factor. Some schools say I can do the 150 hour course, while others are telling me I need to do the 200 hour course because I'm not starting "from the beginning in an integrated course". On top of that, some schools are saying I will not have to pay GST, while others are saying I will. Now if you compare 70 hours of GST exclusive flying to 120 hours of GST inclusive flying there's a big difference! I could hazard a guess as to which way things *should* be, but why is there such a discrepency? And am I wrong to try save myself >$10K???
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god i can ramble on.
Im not sure about the gst but i do have a view on the 150hrs.
I go to a school that is qualified to offer the 150hrs reduction. However they do not guarantee it and thats fair enough as its up to you to achieve this. At my school they suggest that you forget about gaining a CPL before 200hrs (they don't tell you when you first sign up) as its almost unheard of.
Money is an issue for me as i have paid alot of this but the thing that peeves me off is that there is a vast difference in teaching proficency. There are the really good instructors. The not so bad instructors. The low hour instructors with little teaching experience. The instructors who are only there to hour build. The ones you might have a personality conflict with. Those instructors who won't demonstrate manoeuvres, yah i was suprised about this one to until i flew with her. The difference in getting a good or a great instructor will mean thousands of dollars so do research your instructor a little bit. Try and get someone with a bit more experience and someone you like.
Anyway i had a really good instructor, maybe less experienced then others but a very fine instructor. He also got me to fly with other instructors along the way and that helped clear up problems that my instructor new i was having but couldn't exactly figure out how to fix it.
Any I wish that i researched my school a bit better it could have saved me a bit of cash.
p.s. If you want to achieve 150hrs being dedicated and well prepared is a must.
ciao
s**t
this was meant to be a reply for the following thread but i hit the wrong button
150 vs 200 hours CPL (and that darn GST)
anyway if anyone has a good story or a bad story about past instructors i wouldn\'t mind hearing it so post away.
I go to a school that is qualified to offer the 150hrs reduction. However they do not guarantee it and thats fair enough as its up to you to achieve this. At my school they suggest that you forget about gaining a CPL before 200hrs (they don't tell you when you first sign up) as its almost unheard of.
Money is an issue for me as i have paid alot of this but the thing that peeves me off is that there is a vast difference in teaching proficency. There are the really good instructors. The not so bad instructors. The low hour instructors with little teaching experience. The instructors who are only there to hour build. The ones you might have a personality conflict with. Those instructors who won't demonstrate manoeuvres, yah i was suprised about this one to until i flew with her. The difference in getting a good or a great instructor will mean thousands of dollars so do research your instructor a little bit. Try and get someone with a bit more experience and someone you like.
Anyway i had a really good instructor, maybe less experienced then others but a very fine instructor. He also got me to fly with other instructors along the way and that helped clear up problems that my instructor new i was having but couldn't exactly figure out how to fix it.
Any I wish that i researched my school a bit better it could have saved me a bit of cash.
p.s. If you want to achieve 150hrs being dedicated and well prepared is a must.
ciao
s**t
this was meant to be a reply for the following thread but i hit the wrong button
150 vs 200 hours CPL (and that darn GST)
anyway if anyone has a good story or a bad story about past instructors i wouldn\'t mind hearing it so post away.
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well whether or not you still qualify for the 150hrs course will depend on a few things including when you have sat tests amongst other things, check the day VFR Syllabus to see if you meet all the requirements.
2.8.2. (a) A student pilot must have accumulated at least 5 hours dual flying training before he/she may be credited
with a pass in the BAK examination.
(b) A student pilot must have commenced cross-country training and passed the BAK examination before
he/she may be credited with a pass in CASA PPLA theory examination (where applicable).
(c) A student pilot must have accumulated at least 5 hours PIC cross country flight time before he/she may be
credited with a pass in the CASA CPLA written examination. Additionally he/she must have passed the
BAK examination before attempting the CPLA written examination.
(d) Alternatively, the CPLA subject examination may be attempted after the following phases of training have
been achieved:
(i) after passing the General Flying Progress Test (GFPT);
• Aerodynamics
• Human Factors
• Aircraft General Knowledge (AGK)
• Meteorology
(ii) after accumulating 5 hours pilot in command cross country time;
• Navigation
• Aircraft Operation, Performance and Flight Planning
• Flight Rules and Air Law.
(e) To be credited with a pass in any of the examinations as specified in (c) and (d), the examination sitting
must take place after the pre-requisites have been fulfilled. If a student attempts and passes an examination
before meeting the pre-requisites, then that pass cannot be credited towards the approved course and the
student will have to apply to CASA to resit and pass the exam again.
Thats a start but there is more. You do not need to be doing a specific course ie diploma to do the 150hr course, but your training does need to be monitored. If all you have done so far is PPL and you havent really flown since getting your licence there is no real reason why you shouldnt be eligible provided you sat you BAK at the right time.
Realistically you can expect total training time in the 150hr course to hit 200hrs once you include Instrument Ratings and things in the mix(which you would otherwise include in your training towards the 200hrs) the main difference in cost to you will be in the GST free component (I dont believe the instrument rating will be GST free unless part of a complete course though).
But GST free on 150hrs would quite easily still save you around $5000 on your average CPL cost. Also if you find out you are definitely eligible remember your PPL training should have been GST free as well so it may be worth chasing your school for the tax you paid back. They wont like you much but its a lot of money to be saving.
Just my two cents Im sorry to ramble, but I am going through a similar situation where I was told after getting my ppl tax free that I wasnt on the 150hr course and charged GST for about 50hrs of flight time before finding out I should still be on the course. Now I am working out with the school how much GST they owe me, so should be a nice cheque in the mail soon
Zepth
2.8.2. (a) A student pilot must have accumulated at least 5 hours dual flying training before he/she may be credited
with a pass in the BAK examination.
(b) A student pilot must have commenced cross-country training and passed the BAK examination before
he/she may be credited with a pass in CASA PPLA theory examination (where applicable).
(c) A student pilot must have accumulated at least 5 hours PIC cross country flight time before he/she may be
credited with a pass in the CASA CPLA written examination. Additionally he/she must have passed the
BAK examination before attempting the CPLA written examination.
(d) Alternatively, the CPLA subject examination may be attempted after the following phases of training have
been achieved:
(i) after passing the General Flying Progress Test (GFPT);
• Aerodynamics
• Human Factors
• Aircraft General Knowledge (AGK)
• Meteorology
(ii) after accumulating 5 hours pilot in command cross country time;
• Navigation
• Aircraft Operation, Performance and Flight Planning
• Flight Rules and Air Law.
(e) To be credited with a pass in any of the examinations as specified in (c) and (d), the examination sitting
must take place after the pre-requisites have been fulfilled. If a student attempts and passes an examination
before meeting the pre-requisites, then that pass cannot be credited towards the approved course and the
student will have to apply to CASA to resit and pass the exam again.
Thats a start but there is more. You do not need to be doing a specific course ie diploma to do the 150hr course, but your training does need to be monitored. If all you have done so far is PPL and you havent really flown since getting your licence there is no real reason why you shouldnt be eligible provided you sat you BAK at the right time.
Realistically you can expect total training time in the 150hr course to hit 200hrs once you include Instrument Ratings and things in the mix(which you would otherwise include in your training towards the 200hrs) the main difference in cost to you will be in the GST free component (I dont believe the instrument rating will be GST free unless part of a complete course though).
But GST free on 150hrs would quite easily still save you around $5000 on your average CPL cost. Also if you find out you are definitely eligible remember your PPL training should have been GST free as well so it may be worth chasing your school for the tax you paid back. They wont like you much but its a lot of money to be saving.
Just my two cents Im sorry to ramble, but I am going through a similar situation where I was told after getting my ppl tax free that I wasnt on the 150hr course and charged GST for about 50hrs of flight time before finding out I should still be on the course. Now I am working out with the school how much GST they owe me, so should be a nice cheque in the mail soon
Zepth
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Can only comment on the GST component
Krazy (and in fact to anyone else about to embark on a flying career).
If you indicate initially that you are undertaking the training for the award of a CPL, even in distinct segments, ie: GFPT, PPL then CPL, you should not be paying GST however, if you indicate from the beginging that you are only doing PPL, then GST IS applicable. The remainder then, should you continue on, will be GST free. If you have already done PPL and paid GST, I am afraid you cannot get the GST component back from your school as they would have passed it on to the ATO.
Check what school you intend training with.....if they have bothered getting a determination from the ATO, some will not charge GST for any component of the CPL and infact, the Instructor Rating can also be GST free as can the Instrument Rating!
Ask First!
If you indicate initially that you are undertaking the training for the award of a CPL, even in distinct segments, ie: GFPT, PPL then CPL, you should not be paying GST however, if you indicate from the beginging that you are only doing PPL, then GST IS applicable. The remainder then, should you continue on, will be GST free. If you have already done PPL and paid GST, I am afraid you cannot get the GST component back from your school as they would have passed it on to the ATO.
Check what school you intend training with.....if they have bothered getting a determination from the ATO, some will not charge GST for any component of the CPL and infact, the Instructor Rating can also be GST free as can the Instrument Rating!
Ask First!
When you live....
On the GST issue - does anyone know the answer to these questions:
- if I do pay GST because the school doesn't offer GST free unless on the 150 hour course, what is to stop me claiming that GST back?
- if I do claim it back, can I claim it on all flying - i.e. even 'hour building'. (This is a little hopeful I admit if you already have the cross-country hours under your belt!). Assuming not then all dual training? The issue is obviously being able to defend this - imagine failing a security check for tax avoidance!
TIA, UTR
- if I do pay GST because the school doesn't offer GST free unless on the 150 hour course, what is to stop me claiming that GST back?
- if I do claim it back, can I claim it on all flying - i.e. even 'hour building'. (This is a little hopeful I admit if you already have the cross-country hours under your belt!). Assuming not then all dual training? The issue is obviously being able to defend this - imagine failing a security check for tax avoidance!
TIA, UTR
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You can only get your flying GST free as part of an approved course. Hour building on a 200hr CPL is not eligible for GST program as it is not officially a structured course. 200hrs is just the minimum hours required to gain a CPL when not following a course.
The only reason you get the GST free on the 150hrs is because this is an official course, which I believe has to be VETAB approved also and therefore you are classified as a student for tax purposes with the flying school.
If however you are doing a 150hr course and for some reason have still paid GST then I imagine there may be some way of claiming it back but you would have to talk to your accountant about that one.
The only reason you get the GST free on the 150hrs is because this is an official course, which I believe has to be VETAB approved also and therefore you are classified as a student for tax purposes with the flying school.
If however you are doing a 150hr course and for some reason have still paid GST then I imagine there may be some way of claiming it back but you would have to talk to your accountant about that one.
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Funny thing with this 150 hours course. Many flying schools tell you all about the 150 hours course and try to make everyone fit into it just for one reason, to attract customers.
The integrated course was designed initially by a fellow called Paddy Earl at the then CAA who used to work in an integrated school of the old style before he joined the regulator. Initially integrated training meant full time training combined with simulatnious theory instruction. However, later the regulations were watered down by smaller flying schools with less infrastructure by screeming "commercial disadvantage".
Today you have so called "integrated training" where students get their theory in short pre-flight b riefings or have to self study at home. That is NOT integrated training.
If you get REAL integrated traininmg you will be in the classroom and study for almost two weeks before you get into the aircraft. If you fly one the first or second day - that's not integrated training. That is making you fly to make sure propellers turn and the school makes money.
Firstly, If you want to end up as a professional pilot (not like the thousands of private pilots who happen to hold a commercial licence) you should realize that nobody will employ you easily with 150 hours of aeronautical experience.
Secondly, if you are not flying full time you will end up flying more than 150 hours anyway. Not flying often enough means you unlearn skills.
150 hours courses are used today as a "marketing ploy". Remember too that too many flying schools will tell you that you need 150 hours for a CPL. many don't make in in that time. Equally they quote 40 hours for a PPL (CAR Reg 5.84 (2)) but most need more. Few only will tell you in advance it might be more expensive.
If you want to be a professional pilot and want a job remember that you will be expected not just to fly an aircraft but make money with it. You can't learn that on the cheap and in the fast lane.
Go to a flying school that promises quality of training rather than low prices. Look at the instructors and see if they are professional.
Let's face it, there are some 180 flying schools in Australia for such a small market - it's very competitive and many will tell you anythin g to get at the content of your bank account.
Don't trust everyone. There mar many schools who need flying hours on Monday and Tuesday to pay their bills on Friday. That's not the place you want.
Shop around and ask them the names and contact of their ex students who are now enjoying full time flying jobs and of those who are now flying with QANTAS, JETSTAR, VIRGIN BLUE, BRINDABELLA AIRLINES, REX etc. No bull, make it clear you'll check up on it. Then let's see.
The integrated course was designed initially by a fellow called Paddy Earl at the then CAA who used to work in an integrated school of the old style before he joined the regulator. Initially integrated training meant full time training combined with simulatnious theory instruction. However, later the regulations were watered down by smaller flying schools with less infrastructure by screeming "commercial disadvantage".
Today you have so called "integrated training" where students get their theory in short pre-flight b riefings or have to self study at home. That is NOT integrated training.
If you get REAL integrated traininmg you will be in the classroom and study for almost two weeks before you get into the aircraft. If you fly one the first or second day - that's not integrated training. That is making you fly to make sure propellers turn and the school makes money.
Firstly, If you want to end up as a professional pilot (not like the thousands of private pilots who happen to hold a commercial licence) you should realize that nobody will employ you easily with 150 hours of aeronautical experience.
Secondly, if you are not flying full time you will end up flying more than 150 hours anyway. Not flying often enough means you unlearn skills.
150 hours courses are used today as a "marketing ploy". Remember too that too many flying schools will tell you that you need 150 hours for a CPL. many don't make in in that time. Equally they quote 40 hours for a PPL (CAR Reg 5.84 (2)) but most need more. Few only will tell you in advance it might be more expensive.
If you want to be a professional pilot and want a job remember that you will be expected not just to fly an aircraft but make money with it. You can't learn that on the cheap and in the fast lane.
Go to a flying school that promises quality of training rather than low prices. Look at the instructors and see if they are professional.
Let's face it, there are some 180 flying schools in Australia for such a small market - it's very competitive and many will tell you anythin g to get at the content of your bank account.
Don't trust everyone. There mar many schools who need flying hours on Monday and Tuesday to pay their bills on Friday. That's not the place you want.
Shop around and ask them the names and contact of their ex students who are now enjoying full time flying jobs and of those who are now flying with QANTAS, JETSTAR, VIRGIN BLUE, BRINDABELLA AIRLINES, REX etc. No bull, make it clear you'll check up on it. Then let's see.
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Downburst while you make a valid point I dont think thats quite the issue that Krazy is dealing with.
While not many people will be able to get their CPL in the 150hrs quoted as the minimum for the course the main difference between the 150hr syllabus and the 200hr syllabus is firstly that in the 150hr syllabus there is still some form of a required structure which you learn by.
The second huge difference is that with the 150hr syllabus you qualify for GST exempt training.
Now I dont care whether it takes me 150hrs or 200hrs to get my CPL(well ok I care a little but I am realistic and know in the end with the CIR and everything else Ill end up with 200hrs anyway). But if I can save 10% of the cost of those 200hrs by getting them tax free then I will sure as hell want to be able to do that.
Should I happen to also manage to learn fast enough to get my CPL a bit sooner then that is just icing on the cake. I dont expect it to happen but I sure as hell wont complain if it does. The sooner I get out there with the magic piece of paper in my hands the more oppurtunities there will be for me to find the coveted first job. (or the sooner I can go out and start work in a small town supermarket!)
Anyway just my two cents again.
Zepth
While not many people will be able to get their CPL in the 150hrs quoted as the minimum for the course the main difference between the 150hr syllabus and the 200hr syllabus is firstly that in the 150hr syllabus there is still some form of a required structure which you learn by.
The second huge difference is that with the 150hr syllabus you qualify for GST exempt training.
Now I dont care whether it takes me 150hrs or 200hrs to get my CPL(well ok I care a little but I am realistic and know in the end with the CIR and everything else Ill end up with 200hrs anyway). But if I can save 10% of the cost of those 200hrs by getting them tax free then I will sure as hell want to be able to do that.
Should I happen to also manage to learn fast enough to get my CPL a bit sooner then that is just icing on the cake. I dont expect it to happen but I sure as hell wont complain if it does. The sooner I get out there with the magic piece of paper in my hands the more oppurtunities there will be for me to find the coveted first job. (or the sooner I can go out and start work in a small town supermarket!)
Anyway just my two cents again.
Zepth
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The 150 hours vs 200 hours
Zeptiier has a good point here. We all like to save money. I was not aware that a 150 hours course is free of GST? Isn't that only with some specially registered organisations similar to those with how people can get AUSSTUDY?
Mind you, O still stick to my guns of warning to look at the money only. Competence is the real issue if a student wants a job later (and be paid for it). Chief pilots are not stupid and they can sense who is competent and who is not.
One must not forget either that just manipulating the aircraft is not enough, you can a chimpansee to do it. HBowever, that doesn't make the Chimp a professional pilot. The professional can make money for his employer using an aircraft; he often easily does the impossible and for miracles he needs a few minutes longer....
My real worry is that many try to do it on the cheap and then end up a member of the large number of unemployed (and often unemployable) holders of a CPL who basically are private pilots holding a commercial licence becasue they passed some stupid exams and manipulated an aircraft for between 150 to 200 hours without bending it or doing damage to themselves or others.
I would hate to see someone like Krazy put a lot of money and effort into his dream just to have the dream destroyed by having to fly without being paid "just to get the hours up" with no end of that situation in sight. Seeing people in these shoes gets tears in my eyes.
Cheers
Downburst
Mind you, O still stick to my guns of warning to look at the money only. Competence is the real issue if a student wants a job later (and be paid for it). Chief pilots are not stupid and they can sense who is competent and who is not.
One must not forget either that just manipulating the aircraft is not enough, you can a chimpansee to do it. HBowever, that doesn't make the Chimp a professional pilot. The professional can make money for his employer using an aircraft; he often easily does the impossible and for miracles he needs a few minutes longer....
My real worry is that many try to do it on the cheap and then end up a member of the large number of unemployed (and often unemployable) holders of a CPL who basically are private pilots holding a commercial licence becasue they passed some stupid exams and manipulated an aircraft for between 150 to 200 hours without bending it or doing damage to themselves or others.
I would hate to see someone like Krazy put a lot of money and effort into his dream just to have the dream destroyed by having to fly without being paid "just to get the hours up" with no end of that situation in sight. Seeing people in these shoes gets tears in my eyes.
Cheers
Downburst
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I am not sure but I believe there may be something to do with VETAB approved courses being neccessary for the 150hr syllabus to be GST free. But I could be wrong about that.
Zepth
Zepth
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If you do not do an integrated course then you cannot claim GST back on the PPL part of your flying training. However that training which can be shown to go towards your CPL, ie CPL specific training is GST exempt.
So a PPL who then wants to get his CPL can claim the flying he does for his CPL (not including that already done for his PPL) as GST exempt. See your accountant/tax advisor as I am not registered advisor blah blah blah....
Cheers
Jards
So a PPL who then wants to get his CPL can claim the flying he does for his CPL (not including that already done for his PPL) as GST exempt. See your accountant/tax advisor as I am not registered advisor blah blah blah....
Cheers
Jards
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150 vs 200 hours CPL (and that darn GST)
Zeptiiir is correct, the place must be VTAB approved and people can get AUSTUDY provided they go to, at least, the CPL.
The best advice is from Jards! Check it out with an accountant and you could get advice from the tax office and Centrelink too.
All education expenses that lead to a "job" are GST exempt. For example, theory training courses (and even theory distance education courses) are GST exempt and if the provider charges GST he was probably too lazy or too stupid to apply for the tax exemption. As to the flying I was told that you need to be on a structured course provided the training is conducted by, in the old days, a VTAB approved organisation and today an RTO registered and approved by ANTA (Australian National Training Authority). The CPL is now called "Cert. IV Aviation)". The modules and competencies are on the ANTA website.
It's all a numbercrunching game anyway. For example, any training to gain a job is not tax deductable BUT and training to upgrade any professional qualification is. In other words, if you have a CPL than the training for the Command Instrument Rating as well as the training for the ATPL will become fully tax deductible (provided nothing has changed recently so please check with an accountant or the tax office).
The best advice is from Jards! Check it out with an accountant and you could get advice from the tax office and Centrelink too.
All education expenses that lead to a "job" are GST exempt. For example, theory training courses (and even theory distance education courses) are GST exempt and if the provider charges GST he was probably too lazy or too stupid to apply for the tax exemption. As to the flying I was told that you need to be on a structured course provided the training is conducted by, in the old days, a VTAB approved organisation and today an RTO registered and approved by ANTA (Australian National Training Authority). The CPL is now called "Cert. IV Aviation)". The modules and competencies are on the ANTA website.
It's all a numbercrunching game anyway. For example, any training to gain a job is not tax deductable BUT and training to upgrade any professional qualification is. In other words, if you have a CPL than the training for the Command Instrument Rating as well as the training for the ATPL will become fully tax deductible (provided nothing has changed recently so please check with an accountant or the tax office).
