GAAP IFR Procedures.
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GAAP IFR Procedures.
Hi all,
Planning a trip soon to help consolidate a newly aquired CIR. However I don't have very much experience with GAAP aerodromes. I have studied ERSA and the AIP's but still have a couple of questions regardig AF, MB and PF. So here goes
*At these aerodromes who do I contact to get my transponder code and airways clearance?
*At PF if inbound from the south and overflying AD is it necessary to track via a inbound reporting point?
*AT a GAAP aerodrome is it necessary to plan via one of these points if imc is expected. If so is the point to be put on your notification or is it usually omitted?
*How does the the hand off to a GAAP Twr go when inbound in IMC/VMC
Thanks everyone in advance and safe flying.
Planning a trip soon to help consolidate a newly aquired CIR. However I don't have very much experience with GAAP aerodromes. I have studied ERSA and the AIP's but still have a couple of questions regardig AF, MB and PF. So here goes
*At these aerodromes who do I contact to get my transponder code and airways clearance?
*At PF if inbound from the south and overflying AD is it necessary to track via a inbound reporting point?
*AT a GAAP aerodrome is it necessary to plan via one of these points if imc is expected. If so is the point to be put on your notification or is it usually omitted?
*How does the the hand off to a GAAP Twr go when inbound in IMC/VMC
Thanks everyone in advance and safe flying.
1. Contact GND. Airways clearance not required unless departing into CTA. If departing into CTA start clearance is usually required (check ERSA for applicable aerodrome).
2. No. Track via appropriate IFR route and ATC will provide airways clearance as necessary and hopefully direct tracking.
3. No. Inbound reporting points are for VFR traffic and IFR in VMC intending to fly a visual approach only. As an IFR flight you should be planning via the appropriate ATS route and only then tracking via an inbound reporting point if you determine conditions will allow a visual approach and after notifying ATC.
4. ATC will usually have some idea of the conditions and will ask whether you intend to fly a visual or instrument approach. If visual you will typically be told to track via one of the inbound points and call TWR inbound as necessary.
If in IMC or intending to fly the approach for practice in VMC, ATC will tell you to contact the TWR at a suitable point in the approach prior to entering the GAAP CTR. TWR will know you're on the way as they will be incontact with the appropraite ATS unit.
Have fun and good luck!!
2. No. Track via appropriate IFR route and ATC will provide airways clearance as necessary and hopefully direct tracking.
3. No. Inbound reporting points are for VFR traffic and IFR in VMC intending to fly a visual approach only. As an IFR flight you should be planning via the appropriate ATS route and only then tracking via an inbound reporting point if you determine conditions will allow a visual approach and after notifying ATC.
4. ATC will usually have some idea of the conditions and will ask whether you intend to fly a visual or instrument approach. If visual you will typically be told to track via one of the inbound points and call TWR inbound as necessary.
If in IMC or intending to fly the approach for practice in VMC, ATC will tell you to contact the TWR at a suitable point in the approach prior to entering the GAAP CTR. TWR will know you're on the way as they will be incontact with the appropraite ATS unit.
Have fun and good luck!!
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Directanywhere,
Thanks for the help, just one other thing I forgot to ask before was with regard to departure, In ersa some of the GAAP aerodromes stipulate departure altitutdes. Do these apply to IFR flights or vfr only? (Assuming a departure into overlying CTA)
Thanks again Miss Conduct
Thanks for the help, just one other thing I forgot to ask before was with regard to departure, In ersa some of the GAAP aerodromes stipulate departure altitutdes. Do these apply to IFR flights or vfr only? (Assuming a departure into overlying CTA)
Thanks again Miss Conduct
Miss Conduct
Having only flown IFR at one GAAP AD I can only give you some of my biased ideas and thoughts. GAAP's will generally be within the proximity of a major Airport (Big Jet/RPT). For your IFR departure alot of liasing will occur between ATC at your AD and that which controls the Controlled Airspace you are planning to blast into.
As mentioned already planning direct or as req'd for your AD procedures is the correct way. There would not be a Visual Departure track or landmark but an appropriate SID for the direction you want to go.
You inital clearance will normally limit you to the height the GAAP extends up to ie 1500'. This is because it could take any amount of time to get airborne at which time the CTA could be filled with large Aluminium tubes.
At busy GAAP Aerodromes the term Visual may be used with your SID clearance. This does NOT mean fly via VFR departure points instead but it is your job to avoid the C152 on upwind and continue flying the SID. The SID is only cancelled once the magic words 'Cancel SID' are said.
Once lined up and called 'Ready' to Tower more communications between the two ATC units will occur at which point a revised altitude will be passed on to climb to. This again depends on traffic in CTA and as is the norm at certain times a 2 or 3 min delay may be encountered.
Once airborne you are approaching the height of the GAAP you will be transfered for further clearance.
A little point to hopefully help you with the almost garunteed delays which you may encounter is if significant delays are expected and VMC conditions exist the option of departing visually may be offered. The point to remember here is your inital airways clearance into CTA will be cancelled and you will be told to depart via a VFR waypoint instead OCTA and contact a given frequency airborne at that point. The moral for this is know the vfr depature for your direction as well in case this happens and if not ASK and you will be given directions to a point.
IFR departures from GAAPS are often a higher workload because you dont have the initial CTA protection and you have a responsibility to maintain sepperation with other VFR traffic.
Have fun dude
Having only flown IFR at one GAAP AD I can only give you some of my biased ideas and thoughts. GAAP's will generally be within the proximity of a major Airport (Big Jet/RPT). For your IFR departure alot of liasing will occur between ATC at your AD and that which controls the Controlled Airspace you are planning to blast into.
As mentioned already planning direct or as req'd for your AD procedures is the correct way. There would not be a Visual Departure track or landmark but an appropriate SID for the direction you want to go.
You inital clearance will normally limit you to the height the GAAP extends up to ie 1500'. This is because it could take any amount of time to get airborne at which time the CTA could be filled with large Aluminium tubes.
At busy GAAP Aerodromes the term Visual may be used with your SID clearance. This does NOT mean fly via VFR departure points instead but it is your job to avoid the C152 on upwind and continue flying the SID. The SID is only cancelled once the magic words 'Cancel SID' are said.
Once lined up and called 'Ready' to Tower more communications between the two ATC units will occur at which point a revised altitude will be passed on to climb to. This again depends on traffic in CTA and as is the norm at certain times a 2 or 3 min delay may be encountered.
Once airborne you are approaching the height of the GAAP you will be transfered for further clearance.
A little point to hopefully help you with the almost garunteed delays which you may encounter is if significant delays are expected and VMC conditions exist the option of departing visually may be offered. The point to remember here is your inital airways clearance into CTA will be cancelled and you will be told to depart via a VFR waypoint instead OCTA and contact a given frequency airborne at that point. The moral for this is know the vfr depature for your direction as well in case this happens and if not ASK and you will be given directions to a point.
IFR departures from GAAPS are often a higher workload because you dont have the initial CTA protection and you have a responsibility to maintain sepperation with other VFR traffic.
Have fun dude
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Thanks guys, greatly appreiciated. Its a shame conditions and airspace don't allow for standardisation across the board. ( I see only some GAAPS have SID'S) It would certainly male life a little easier. But coupled with what I have picked up here and consultation with who ever I hire from, I hopefully shouldn't cause ATC and other pilots to much grief.
I think you'll find MB and PF fairly straight forward as neither of them are particularly close to their associated primary airport. In several years flying out of both of them I don't think I was ever restricted to the upper limit of the GAAP CTR as my initial clearance limit. I was always cleared to my desired level and told to contact APP/DEP/whoever passing the CTR upper limit.
I'm not familiar enough with AF. However, Departures and Arrivals from BN that are aligned with the runway outside 14(?) Nm will pass directly overhead AF so it may be more of a problem here than at the others.
I've always found ATC only too happy to help if you're IFR - perhaps 'cos you're paying for the privilege. If you're unfamiliar all you have to do is ask and they'll bend over backwards to make things easier.
Let us know how it all goes.
I'm not familiar enough with AF. However, Departures and Arrivals from BN that are aligned with the runway outside 14(?) Nm will pass directly overhead AF so it may be more of a problem here than at the others.
I've always found ATC only too happy to help if you're IFR - perhaps 'cos you're paying for the privilege. If you're unfamiliar all you have to do is ask and they'll bend over backwards to make things easier.
Let us know how it all goes.
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MissC
At AF, you call BN RAD 125.7 for TXP code prior to taxi. You then call AF SMC 119.9 with GAAP IFR taxi call. If in VMC on departure use VFR departure as per ERSA and contact BN RAD 125.7 for TXP identification and clearance as per ERSA; departing in VMC thru YAMB airspace when active contact AMB APP 124.6 crossing the Western FWY. If IMC departure via SID, just do as you're told! Using a VFR approach point when in VMC helps everyone (nothing different here!). AF tower very helpful to IFR and will offer you most convenient (i.e. least taxiing) runway if available.
PF and MB tower give you code with taxi call. Conveniently the inbound track to MB from ELW aligns with VFR approach point ACE (Academy).
If not departing on a SID you either follow such instructions as given or depart at the stipulated circuit departure altitudes and then require clearance to enter CTA.
BTW - if weather's crappy, YMEN's ILS will get you down and is more convenient than YMMB for the city and hire cars, etc.
At AF, you call BN RAD 125.7 for TXP code prior to taxi. You then call AF SMC 119.9 with GAAP IFR taxi call. If in VMC on departure use VFR departure as per ERSA and contact BN RAD 125.7 for TXP identification and clearance as per ERSA; departing in VMC thru YAMB airspace when active contact AMB APP 124.6 crossing the Western FWY. If IMC departure via SID, just do as you're told! Using a VFR approach point when in VMC helps everyone (nothing different here!). AF tower very helpful to IFR and will offer you most convenient (i.e. least taxiing) runway if available.
PF and MB tower give you code with taxi call. Conveniently the inbound track to MB from ELW aligns with VFR approach point ACE (Academy).
If not departing on a SID you either follow such instructions as given or depart at the stipulated circuit departure altitudes and then require clearance to enter CTA.
BTW - if weather's crappy, YMEN's ILS will get you down and is more convenient than YMMB for the city and hire cars, etc.
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Messiah is a tool.
Good on you MC for asking questions - a sign of professionalism, as opposed to our self proclaimed Messiah.
If it is any indication, I know extremely experienced pilots who call ATC or local operators before operating in to unfamiliar territory - you would be mad not too - surely?
Good on you MC for asking questions - a sign of professionalism, as opposed to our self proclaimed Messiah.
If it is any indication, I know extremely experienced pilots who call ATC or local operators before operating in to unfamiliar territory - you would be mad not too - surely?
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Messiah,
As your very informed self would no doubt relise the procedures vary from GAAP to GAAP, for example departure altitudes and procedures in VMC v's IMC at Archerfield. There is always one goose that can't help but have a dig at someone that trying to do the right thing in an attempt at making themselves feel better. I'd say Miss Conduct's training was very good, obviously taught to ask and prepare correctly if not sure. Maybe if we all did that we could reduce the amount of CTA violations each year. You are right about one thing though, you are a TOOL. Is it any wonder the industry is in the shape its in?
As your very informed self would no doubt relise the procedures vary from GAAP to GAAP, for example departure altitudes and procedures in VMC v's IMC at Archerfield. There is always one goose that can't help but have a dig at someone that trying to do the right thing in an attempt at making themselves feel better. I'd say Miss Conduct's training was very good, obviously taught to ask and prepare correctly if not sure. Maybe if we all did that we could reduce the amount of CTA violations each year. You are right about one thing though, you are a TOOL. Is it any wonder the industry is in the shape its in?
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8 8th's
As a tool I have operated thru almost every GAAP aerodrome in the country both VFR and IFR and never posted on PPrune to find out how to do it. I know that if I went to any instructor who did my training with a question he would not say 'oh go and ask on PPrune'. From your previous posts I can see that you are quite the authority on Flight Sim. So you have flown the 777, 737, 747, 767 and all the rest. I accept being called a tool by you as you would be well qualified in that department.
Further in your reply you state no wonder the industry is in the state it is. No wonder why? Does my attitude to this topic contribute to knobs paying for endorsements or working for less than the award or blaming so called commercial pressure as an excuse for flying unserviceable aircraft? etc etc the list goes on. I think farking not. These are the reasons for the Australian industry being in the state it is in and if our friend ever gets a real job and one day heaven forbid has to divert to a totally unfamiliar aerodrome (in another country that is, where the rest of the world fly aircraft competently and professionally) he will not have anything but the publications onboard and should be able retrieve all the information required from there.
matca
As for you I am sincerely sorry you never made it as a pilot. It must be torture sitting in ATC watching everybody doing what you really want to do. Well you can always go and pretend on Flight Sim with 8 8th's.
In the words of that retiring United Captain years ago on being transferred off from Aussie ATC on his last flight, 'you guys are the second best controllers in the entire world', to which the ATC said, 'thanks very much and can I ask who is the best?', 'everybody else' said the Captain.
Regards,
Total tool.
As a tool I have operated thru almost every GAAP aerodrome in the country both VFR and IFR and never posted on PPrune to find out how to do it. I know that if I went to any instructor who did my training with a question he would not say 'oh go and ask on PPrune'. From your previous posts I can see that you are quite the authority on Flight Sim. So you have flown the 777, 737, 747, 767 and all the rest. I accept being called a tool by you as you would be well qualified in that department.
Further in your reply you state no wonder the industry is in the state it is. No wonder why? Does my attitude to this topic contribute to knobs paying for endorsements or working for less than the award or blaming so called commercial pressure as an excuse for flying unserviceable aircraft? etc etc the list goes on. I think farking not. These are the reasons for the Australian industry being in the state it is in and if our friend ever gets a real job and one day heaven forbid has to divert to a totally unfamiliar aerodrome (in another country that is, where the rest of the world fly aircraft competently and professionally) he will not have anything but the publications onboard and should be able retrieve all the information required from there.
matca
As for you I am sincerely sorry you never made it as a pilot. It must be torture sitting in ATC watching everybody doing what you really want to do. Well you can always go and pretend on Flight Sim with 8 8th's.
In the words of that retiring United Captain years ago on being transferred off from Aussie ATC on his last flight, 'you guys are the second best controllers in the entire world', to which the ATC said, 'thanks very much and can I ask who is the best?', 'everybody else' said the Captain.
Regards,
Total tool.
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Ego's and whatever else asside, don't you think that answering Q's of any standard in a professional and helpful way is going to help others, increase safety, improve understanding and generally make the operation in and out of GAAP's and the like alot smoother, thus allowing such experienced pilots' like yourself to motor in and out much faster?
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The Messiah - Dood,
I have quite satisfying careers on both sides of the fence thank you, which makes me a little more qualified to comment than you.
I've worked in GAAP towers before and I'm letting the pilot know that asking questions before you fly in is preferred rather than the damage you can cause if you're un-sure of something. I say this taking into account that there is no face to face briefing anymore.
Just because you have flown into all the GAAPS doesn't mean you know what you're doing. I know you're type, you know everything, don't you? You could pass on your knowledge to this pilot rather than slagging (because you know everything)
Glad to see you have so much respect for United, they're in a fine state now aren't they??
I do a bit of flight sim but much prefer the real thing.
It must be CUTTING YOU UP still having to fly into the GAAP aerodromes rather than the primaries eh?
I hear there's a vacancy in Rome for you,
Seeya TOTAL TOOL.
I have quite satisfying careers on both sides of the fence thank you, which makes me a little more qualified to comment than you.
I've worked in GAAP towers before and I'm letting the pilot know that asking questions before you fly in is preferred rather than the damage you can cause if you're un-sure of something. I say this taking into account that there is no face to face briefing anymore.
Just because you have flown into all the GAAPS doesn't mean you know what you're doing. I know you're type, you know everything, don't you? You could pass on your knowledge to this pilot rather than slagging (because you know everything)
Glad to see you have so much respect for United, they're in a fine state now aren't they??
I do a bit of flight sim but much prefer the real thing.
It must be CUTTING YOU UP still having to fly into the GAAP aerodromes rather than the primaries eh?
I hear there's a vacancy in Rome for you,
Seeya TOTAL TOOL.
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Haven't flown into a GAAP since '99 but used to enjoy it, especially when information Zulu was current and it was an MBZ and you public servants had gone home.
I fly and contribute to your salary while doing it civil servant.
I fly and contribute to your salary while doing it civil servant.
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Messiah,
Methinks thou protest too much.
BTW, The United joke is an old one - but you won't hear what ATC think of United on the air because they are far too professional to do so.
Like you, no doubt, I have also flown in the US - and frankly I was no more or less impressed by the ATC there at the time. (SOCAL)
When you were doing your Command Training on the 744 you would have completed the CRM modules, no? The 'R' bit means seeking all the available information from a number of sources.
Thats what the original question on this thread was all about.
The type of attitude you display seems more relevant to the loonies at bindook.com .
BTW. Did I mention your resemblance to the Swiss Army Knife?
Methinks thou protest too much.
BTW, The United joke is an old one - but you won't hear what ATC think of United on the air because they are far too professional to do so.
Like you, no doubt, I have also flown in the US - and frankly I was no more or less impressed by the ATC there at the time. (SOCAL)
When you were doing your Command Training on the 744 you would have completed the CRM modules, no? The 'R' bit means seeking all the available information from a number of sources.
Thats what the original question on this thread was all about.
The type of attitude you display seems more relevant to the loonies at bindook.com .
BTW. Did I mention your resemblance to the Swiss Army Knife?
Out of a total of 17 posts (now 18!), 7 refer to the original question while the remaining 10 are simply you lot slagging each other off!
Have a think about it gentlemen, and consider the light in which it shows you - albeit anonymously. An utter waste of time and bandwidth.
BTW Messiah, MissConduct may (or may not) live in a regional area and not have access to an experienced instructor familiar with GAAP procedures. I think asking the questions here is as valid as asking them anywhere else and shows a level of operational maturity from which many could learn.
Have a think about it gentlemen, and consider the light in which it shows you - albeit anonymously. An utter waste of time and bandwidth.
BTW Messiah, MissConduct may (or may not) live in a regional area and not have access to an experienced instructor familiar with GAAP procedures. I think asking the questions here is as valid as asking them anywhere else and shows a level of operational maturity from which many could learn.
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My first post was because for the amount of money you pay for a CIR you should be competent to handle something as simple as a GAAP. If one of my students then had to ask on PPrune for info I would feel I hadn't done my job as an instructor. My opinion so thats that.
I have immediately since had to defend myself from the schoolyard name calling that is inevitable on this 'unprofessional pilots rumour network'. It is really quite a laugh.
I look forward one day to meeting some of the tough anonymous name callers on here face to face at one of these Prune pissups. That would be just the motivation I may need to attend.
I have immediately since had to defend myself from the schoolyard name calling that is inevitable on this 'unprofessional pilots rumour network'. It is really quite a laugh.
I look forward one day to meeting some of the tough anonymous name callers on here face to face at one of these Prune pissups. That would be just the motivation I may need to attend.