RFDS require Awesome Flying Qualifications
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I do not know when the Australian CAA lowered the bar to include automatic pilot monitoring as counting towards logging instrument flight time but the original reason for the logging of flight time on instruments was a measure of experience level and thus perceived competency. The Royal Australian Air Force and Navy saw fit to also restrict logging of instrument flight time to actual hands on flying.
It is possible that the rules changed when airlines perceived hands on instrument flying as potentially dangerous in jet transports and lobbied their regulators to add autopilot monitoring as acceptable for logging on instruments. This of course immediately negated the whole point of having an instrument flight column in the log book.
Of course it is impossible to verify if a pilot is stacking his log book instrument flight column with fake flight on instruments in order to qualify for certain flying jobs where minimum instrument hours are called for. Witness previous Pprune posts where it was mentioned that a captain of a certain LCC said to his F/O who was completing the day's flight records "Put me down for 30 minutes I/F" even though the weather had been CAVOK wherever they flew that day.
To the knowledgeable interviewer, the amount of instrument flight time shown in a pilot's log book is usually regarded with marked scepticism if it can be proved it was automatic pilot time.
A short raw data non-automatics session in the simulator quickly weeds out the automatics monkeys.
It is possible that the rules changed when airlines perceived hands on instrument flying as potentially dangerous in jet transports and lobbied their regulators to add autopilot monitoring as acceptable for logging on instruments. This of course immediately negated the whole point of having an instrument flight column in the log book.
Of course it is impossible to verify if a pilot is stacking his log book instrument flight column with fake flight on instruments in order to qualify for certain flying jobs where minimum instrument hours are called for. Witness previous Pprune posts where it was mentioned that a captain of a certain LCC said to his F/O who was completing the day's flight records "Put me down for 30 minutes I/F" even though the weather had been CAVOK wherever they flew that day.
To the knowledgeable interviewer, the amount of instrument flight time shown in a pilot's log book is usually regarded with marked scepticism if it can be proved it was automatic pilot time.
A short raw data non-automatics session in the simulator quickly weeds out the automatics monkeys.
HSWL
Prior to moving onto the airlines I had 6000 hours total experience in GA over ten years. Of this total I had 235 hours of IF time. This was logged in accordance with the rules in Australia. Personally I rarely used the autopilot in climb and descent because quite frankly it wasn't very good at it and increased my workload. It was far easier to hand fly the thing during this time, when I was most likely to encounter IF conditions than let the A/P do it. With the such small amount of IF time I had compared to total time, and this was almost all on IFR flight plans by the way, in the tropics, I don’t think it would make any difference if you included A/P time or not.
Prior to moving onto the airlines I had 6000 hours total experience in GA over ten years. Of this total I had 235 hours of IF time. This was logged in accordance with the rules in Australia. Personally I rarely used the autopilot in climb and descent because quite frankly it wasn't very good at it and increased my workload. It was far easier to hand fly the thing during this time, when I was most likely to encounter IF conditions than let the A/P do it. With the such small amount of IF time I had compared to total time, and this was almost all on IFR flight plans by the way, in the tropics, I don’t think it would make any difference if you included A/P time or not.
Autopilot or not, if you're in cloud or severely reduced vis, the management of the flight takes on a whole new aspect compared to VFR, ie. LSALTS, how to get down at the other end, diversions, and so on.
Logging IFR when you can see as well as if it was a beaut VFR day isn't kosher, in my view, because all those considerations become insignificant. However, once you're in the gloop, the careful planning and good situational awareness are paramount, and the autopilot is neither here nor there - consider an aircraft with a copilot hand flying in cloud; should the captain still log instrument time? Ken oath!
Logging IFR when you can see as well as if it was a beaut VFR day isn't kosher, in my view, because all those considerations become insignificant. However, once you're in the gloop, the careful planning and good situational awareness are paramount, and the autopilot is neither here nor there - consider an aircraft with a copilot hand flying in cloud; should the captain still log instrument time? Ken oath!
an aircraft with a copilot hand flying in cloud; should the captain still log instrument time? Ken oath!
This is what CASA has to say about it.
"In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight."
Thread Starter
Arm out of window. You have to be joking. The captain is probably having coffee and bikkies in the LH seat and chatting up the hostie. How can he log that as I/F if the other bloke is flying it?
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Well; depends on the experience level of the FO I guess .
then it gets really difficult 
But back on thread RFDS pilots require awesome quals because they do an awesome job.
Through sleet snow blah blah the mail/RFDS must get through and there is a single pilot "black hole" approach at the end of it.
then it gets really difficult But back on thread RFDS pilots require awesome quals because they do an awesome job.
Through sleet snow blah blah the mail/RFDS must get through and there is a single pilot "black hole" approach at the end of it.
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and there is a single pilot "black hole" approach at the end of it.
Done the RFDS and Aero Med thing and there was none nada zip in my day.
Still did all the landing on strips lit by carlights etc an man it was bloody hairy.
Its a circus act and has nothing whatsoever to do with normal ops of any kind.
Hope they dont still carry on with all this stuff?
tinni,
Initial and recurrent training in limited flare path was provided. Doing so is a mercy flight and all other avenues are explored first, like waiting until landing can be achieved at first light, driving to/from another strip, helicopters etc. Also the PIC has the final say, if they dont like it, pull out at any time, no blame policy.
Initial and recurrent training in limited flare path was provided. Doing so is a mercy flight and all other avenues are explored first, like waiting until landing can be achieved at first light, driving to/from another strip, helicopters etc. Also the PIC has the final say, if they dont like it, pull out at any time, no blame policy.
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Thanks fellas well the time I am talking about the base airfield didnt even have an approval for night operations it required a dispensation.
The runway lighting was kindly provided by my missus putting out flares using my car !
Can anyone guess where this was?
Oh a prominent RFDS committee type person once said at a fundraiser "Oh I never knew we had an aeroplane based there?"
The runway lighting was kindly provided by my missus putting out flares using my car !
Can anyone guess where this was?
Oh a prominent RFDS committee type person once said at a fundraiser "Oh I never knew we had an aeroplane based there?"
tinpis,
across the nullarbor where a couple of kero flares at each end and reflectors do the job at night, training is done once every two years with the checkie in the RHS, usually at Southern Cross. Ruins the training when the F50 keys the PAL going overhead though...
Aussie,
As for the salaries, well they vary a bit from section to section, but I would roughly say around 60K including perks first year in.
across the nullarbor where a couple of kero flares at each end and reflectors do the job at night, training is done once every two years with the checkie in the RHS, usually at Southern Cross. Ruins the training when the F50 keys the PAL going overhead though...
Aussie,
As for the salaries, well they vary a bit from section to section, but I would roughly say around 60K including perks first year in.
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60k, So essentially its a retirement job then, because you can't ,meet their minimums of experience and time unless you are 60+ and sans mortgage, and you can't live on 60K unless you don't gotta mortgage, which means you are either 21 and the son of a millionaire or 58 and all paid up and retiring ?
fair enough, I see their point, very clever.
but if you have already worn yourself out on a mortgage, and blown all your breath on your career thus far, why would you risk RFDS if they are so exacting ?
can someone please explain, as I always dreamt of RFDS, but this means another 10 decades wait....... ?
fair enough, I see their point, very clever.
but if you have already worn yourself out on a mortgage, and blown all your breath on your career thus far, why would you risk RFDS if they are so exacting ?
can someone please explain, as I always dreamt of RFDS, but this means another 10 decades wait....... ?
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7gcbc
oh deary me .. that is a little defeatist .. I know that there are more than one or two RFDS pilots that don't fit either category.
Tinni I've got one or two ideas about where you mean .. but the AU AO is just a little broad!
In my 10 years when service actually meant something to GA, I only ever had one flight declared one of mercy, and that was upon the dep for the big smoke, not on ldg.
you can't ,meet their minimums of experience and time unless you are 60+ and sans mortgage, and you can't live on 60K unless you don't gotta mortgage
Tinni I've got one or two ideas about where you mean .. but the AU AO is just a little broad!
In my 10 years when service actually meant something to GA, I only ever had one flight declared one of mercy, and that was upon the dep for the big smoke, not on ldg.
Seasonally Adjusted
60K doesn't sound too bad. But then again I'm on 40K with 20 month old child and mortgage.
Stallie...just checked out 'The Voice's' location, he's not bunked down with you by any chance?
Stallie...just checked out 'The Voice's' location, he's not bunked down with you by any chance?
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I think you’ll find that the RFDS( South Eastern section anyway) is no retirement village. There are at least a dozen or so pilots that are under 40 spread over the five bases and half a dozen are also under 35. Some joined the RFDS when they were in their late twenties. Granted there are some older pilots in the ranks who are in until the Dr’s say that’s it but even some of them plus the young one’s are looking else where due to the high turn over of chief pilot’s of late.
The pay actually isn’t that bad but could be better. Starting pay is around 54K going up to 64K(with years of service) but with the Salary sacrifice set up they have, it’s about the same take home pay as if you were on high 60’s to mid 70’s depending on your years of service anywhere else. This all varies across the section due to the fact that some bases get overtime pay because of their contracts being operated and some get a remote area allowance. Some bases get neither which hopefully will be addressed at the next EBA. The overtime pay and allowances(Meals/phones etc..) is on top of the figures above. Except for night shift there is almost never any overnights also.
The high qualifications come from the Sydney contract requirements which is why the high numbers for the FOM job. The Sydney minimums (line pilot) were made section wide requirements by two chief pilots ago. The other bases don’t actually require these minimums. NSW air ambulance service think these hours best suit their needs.
IMHO they are bit over the top. Lots of IF time is definitely required but the right type is required, like time logged conducting approaches not 20 mins in a cloud at 15,000 feet.
Having done my share of back hole approaches or low vis, low level arrivals into some strips that you think twice driving a 4WD down fast let alone landing a B200, experience is definitely required. Its more about what type of flying you’ve done before plus under what conditions. Was it through the wet season? Have you even been into short strips? Those who have gone ILS to ILS their whole career will struggle to get an interview for line position but maybe looked at for the FOM and other management positions. The last two FOM’s were x airline, so management may look elsewhere in the industry. Whether they look internally is yet to be seen.
The FOM’s job is not an easy one, with 6 bases to worry about plus the politics which would take another 5 pages to explain, so I won’t.
Anyway being a line pilot is a good job , the FOM’s is a nightmare but could be good if they choose right.
Good luck to those who applied. That’s my 2 cents worth!!!
P.S. Hit any small black and white birds yet Stallie??
The pay actually isn’t that bad but could be better. Starting pay is around 54K going up to 64K(with years of service) but with the Salary sacrifice set up they have, it’s about the same take home pay as if you were on high 60’s to mid 70’s depending on your years of service anywhere else. This all varies across the section due to the fact that some bases get overtime pay because of their contracts being operated and some get a remote area allowance. Some bases get neither which hopefully will be addressed at the next EBA. The overtime pay and allowances(Meals/phones etc..) is on top of the figures above. Except for night shift there is almost never any overnights also.
The high qualifications come from the Sydney contract requirements which is why the high numbers for the FOM job. The Sydney minimums (line pilot) were made section wide requirements by two chief pilots ago. The other bases don’t actually require these minimums. NSW air ambulance service think these hours best suit their needs.
IMHO they are bit over the top. Lots of IF time is definitely required but the right type is required, like time logged conducting approaches not 20 mins in a cloud at 15,000 feet.
Having done my share of back hole approaches or low vis, low level arrivals into some strips that you think twice driving a 4WD down fast let alone landing a B200, experience is definitely required. Its more about what type of flying you’ve done before plus under what conditions. Was it through the wet season? Have you even been into short strips? Those who have gone ILS to ILS their whole career will struggle to get an interview for line position but maybe looked at for the FOM and other management positions. The last two FOM’s were x airline, so management may look elsewhere in the industry. Whether they look internally is yet to be seen.
The FOM’s job is not an easy one, with 6 bases to worry about plus the politics which would take another 5 pages to explain, so I won’t.
Anyway being a line pilot is a good job , the FOM’s is a nightmare but could be good if they choose right.
Good luck to those who applied. That’s my 2 cents worth!!!
P.S. Hit any small black and white birds yet Stallie??
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Night Hawk you've hit the nail on the head! I believe most Sections are not retirement villages; although some bases have average ages over 50!
In essence what they want for a FOM is a mature chap who can handle a bunch of 'experienced' (read 50+) pilots and deal with Health Departments, megalomaniac Emergency Consultants, ambulance coordinators and angry flight nurses, oh and by the way, you should be able to fill in on the roster at the drop of a hat when required. Now that is a challenging job if ever I have seen it. And you should see the chief pilot description!! Having a pilot who can be put on the roster at a moment's notice (of course within appropriate rest periods bla bla bla) and fly the "worst case" RFDS flight requires someone who has been around the block more than once, hence the hour experience requirements.
In regards to IF time, yep, it's a funny one. I don't think that you would miss out if you had all requirments except 600IF, but you might if you only had 100hrsIF.
Also, the applicant would want have good social skills to deal with the above after a long shift- but that is hard to quantify on 'minimum requirments.' The best place for that is charter, IMHO. Sometimes ex-airline and military types are lacking in this area.
Stallie, keep those photos coming. They are great..
In essence what they want for a FOM is a mature chap who can handle a bunch of 'experienced' (read 50+) pilots and deal with Health Departments, megalomaniac Emergency Consultants, ambulance coordinators and angry flight nurses, oh and by the way, you should be able to fill in on the roster at the drop of a hat when required. Now that is a challenging job if ever I have seen it. And you should see the chief pilot description!! Having a pilot who can be put on the roster at a moment's notice (of course within appropriate rest periods bla bla bla) and fly the "worst case" RFDS flight requires someone who has been around the block more than once, hence the hour experience requirements.
In regards to IF time, yep, it's a funny one. I don't think that you would miss out if you had all requirments except 600IF, but you might if you only had 100hrsIF.
Also, the applicant would want have good social skills to deal with the above after a long shift- but that is hard to quantify on 'minimum requirments.' The best place for that is charter, IMHO. Sometimes ex-airline and military types are lacking in this area.
Stallie, keep those photos coming. They are great..