The Ultimate Twin - What do u think?!?!
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B767
G'day Chimbu,
Just straying away for a moment from the topic here......
I've noticed in your personal profile you operate the 767 machine.
Was just in a conversation with another hopeful piston driver like me ( or should I say hopeless ....
) about what would happen if the IRU in the 767 malfunctioned......... do you get a problem called a "map shift" in the ND ?
Thanks
Let me know if I can throw more questions to your personal email.
DeltaSix
Just straying away for a moment from the topic here......
I've noticed in your personal profile you operate the 767 machine.
Was just in a conversation with another hopeful piston driver like me ( or should I say hopeless ....
) about what would happen if the IRU in the 767 malfunctioned......... do you get a problem called a "map shift" in the ND ?Thanks
Let me know if I can throw more questions to your personal email.
DeltaSix
With all due respect, how is a light twinjet going to be any more difficult to operate than a piston twin....? I realise that the speeds are greater, but surely the reliability of the engines/avionics/etc would be much better in the light twinjet, as would the ergonomics etc of the design (i.e being designed in the nineties, when these things were considered, as opposed to being essentially a 60's design like most piston machines)
Surely assymetric situations would be easier to handle with two small turbofans engines closer to the fuselage rather than two piston engines spaced further away from the centreline of the aircraft? Not to mention the FADEC engine controls - or glass cockpits - the list goes on & on...
Surely assymetric situations would be easier to handle with two small turbofans engines closer to the fuselage rather than two piston engines spaced further away from the centreline of the aircraft? Not to mention the FADEC engine controls - or glass cockpits - the list goes on & on...
Grandpa Aerotart
I'm not comparing the mechanics of an engine failure at V1...certainly it's 'easier' in a jet with gauranteed performance...and it's also about the easiest thing we do in sim recurrent....there is a lot more to flying a jet.
It takes newly minted airline pilots (mostly very experienced multi/tuboprop pilots) 100's of hours to get to the point of feeling reasonably comfortable flying jet airliners when nothings going wrong....where will Doctor so and so get that training and experience?.
And don't tell me Flight Safety or whatever...everyone I know who has received training at those sort of places, and who has previous airline experience, comes away dismayed at the experience....a trip to these places every 6-12 mths is better than nothing...and that's about it...I would imagine that in the US at least Insurance companies will demand regular recurrent training to be covered...it will be mostly a box ticking excercise...can you really imagine an extremely wealthy/powerfull owner being failed? And even then the exercises will be canned type scenarios that can be flown by rote once you've done them 5 or 7 times the day before your licence ride. They will be all done on the autopilot, as has become the fashion.
Professional crewed is a different thing...but that seems not to be the market they are aimed at. SP in a jet, even a little one, is a lot to ask someone who doesn't do it for a living. Just look at all the warbird piston/jets, as well as high performance civvy aircraft that have been crashed over the years by people with checkbooks that outstrip their experience.
Delta 6 mapshift is usually conected to IRS drift where no updating has occurred, ie. via VOR/VOR or DME/DME fixes that correct the IRS position. Feel free to PM me if you want a more precise (read long winded) answer.
EDIT...and to answer the thread question. If money was no object and I wanted something I could fly SP I'd go for the C441...the best twin I've flown. If I wanted to employ another pilot then any of the Falcon twins...best jet I've ever flown. I didn't much like the Citation 560 Ultra....and the 767 is just too big to be considered
It takes newly minted airline pilots (mostly very experienced multi/tuboprop pilots) 100's of hours to get to the point of feeling reasonably comfortable flying jet airliners when nothings going wrong....where will Doctor so and so get that training and experience?.
And don't tell me Flight Safety or whatever...everyone I know who has received training at those sort of places, and who has previous airline experience, comes away dismayed at the experience....a trip to these places every 6-12 mths is better than nothing...and that's about it...I would imagine that in the US at least Insurance companies will demand regular recurrent training to be covered...it will be mostly a box ticking excercise...can you really imagine an extremely wealthy/powerfull owner being failed? And even then the exercises will be canned type scenarios that can be flown by rote once you've done them 5 or 7 times the day before your licence ride. They will be all done on the autopilot, as has become the fashion.
Professional crewed is a different thing...but that seems not to be the market they are aimed at. SP in a jet, even a little one, is a lot to ask someone who doesn't do it for a living. Just look at all the warbird piston/jets, as well as high performance civvy aircraft that have been crashed over the years by people with checkbooks that outstrip their experience.
Delta 6 mapshift is usually conected to IRS drift where no updating has occurred, ie. via VOR/VOR or DME/DME fixes that correct the IRS position. Feel free to PM me if you want a more precise (read long winded) answer.
EDIT...and to answer the thread question. If money was no object and I wanted something I could fly SP I'd go for the C441...the best twin I've flown. If I wanted to employ another pilot then any of the Falcon twins...best jet I've ever flown. I didn't much like the Citation 560 Ultra....and the 767 is just too big to be considered
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 2nd Dec 2004 at 15:33.
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THE ULTIMATE TWIN...
Cheap.
Easy to Fly single pilot.
Pt 135 approved.
GODDAM SEXY!
How can you possible go past the greatest machine ever invented...
PIPER AZTECS all the way.
On the eigth day God created Holdens.
On the nineth day he created Aztec's. God's gift to aviation.
Cheap.
Easy to Fly single pilot.
Pt 135 approved.
GODDAM SEXY!
How can you possible go past the greatest machine ever invented...
PIPER AZTECS all the way.
On the eigth day God created Holdens.
On the nineth day he created Aztec's. God's gift to aviation.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Still lean towards the DH Mosquito myself but my late Father logged a few hours in a Beaufighter and said that they were'nt too bad!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Tinpis; If only it were true!!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Beginning to think the B737-800 with winglets looks pretty neat. Don't think I'd like to actually own one, though (and I'm a little too old to be flying one now anyway).
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Ozexpat
Well if they were still makin em and they stopped because they were just too damn good and predating Citation sales the C441 with -10s and Black Macs just has to be the go.
Even the std -8s were good for max weight TO direct to FL350 after moving the all the B200s outa the way and then sitting on 290KTAS, try that in your B200, or Perth Coolangatta at 290 KTAS only +20 and fuel o'head Cooly for Sydney w/holding reserves.
Theres nothing else that will go Per Syd either ways on one tank in around 6 hours.
Gliding, well a good mate of mine can tell you a really beaut story on that. That big 52 ft lam flow plank wing is just georgeous, just doesn't wanna come down. Dunno what the L/D is but it would eat the B200.
If I ever win the big Lotto, I am going to buy the lowest time prettiest C441 I can find, new -10s and Black Macs, refurb and park it next to the creampuff remanufactured C310R.
Why you never used them in PNG escapes me. but then if you learnt to fly on a Musketeer I spose you must have been scarred/scared for life. 
Eat your heart out and sincerest best wishes for Chrissy.
Well if they were still makin em and they stopped because they were just too damn good and predating Citation sales the C441 with -10s and Black Macs just has to be the go.
Even the std -8s were good for max weight TO direct to FL350 after moving the all the B200s outa the way and then sitting on 290KTAS, try that in your B200, or Perth Coolangatta at 290 KTAS only +20 and fuel o'head Cooly for Sydney w/holding reserves.
Theres nothing else that will go Per Syd either ways on one tank in around 6 hours.
Gliding, well a good mate of mine can tell you a really beaut story on that. That big 52 ft lam flow plank wing is just georgeous, just doesn't wanna come down. Dunno what the L/D is but it would eat the B200.
If I ever win the big Lotto, I am going to buy the lowest time prettiest C441 I can find, new -10s and Black Macs, refurb and park it next to the creampuff remanufactured C310R.
Why you never used them in PNG escapes me.
but then if you learnt to fly on a Musketeer I spose you must have been scarred/scared for life. Eat your heart out and sincerest best wishes for Chrissy.
Grandpa Aerotart
HMMM Coonquest
My favorite twin...and daughter
It's panel
Check out the ground speed
One of dem luverly -8s
Chuckles brings a/c back to YBAF...
But my all time favorite aircraft...and yes I know it's a twin
Falcon at Kota Kinabalu around sunrise
And yes she flew as good as she looks.
Her panel
Dual Universal FMCs...and Chuck's right knee
My favorite twin...and daughter
It's panel
Check out the ground speed
One of dem luverly -8s
Chuckles brings a/c back to YBAF...
But my all time favorite aircraft...and yes I know it's a twin
Falcon at Kota Kinabalu around sunrise
And yes she flew as good as she looks.
Her panel
Dual Universal FMCs...and Chuck's right knee
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 8th Dec 2004 at 05:44.
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Chuckles
Brings tears to me eyes it does.
I'll deny I ever said it, but, given the money and the choice, Falcon would be my chioice of jet.
F900 anywhere in Oz and SE Asia out of an 1100m dirt strip, that's Rolls Royce aerodynamics.
It's really a twin with another engine for "just in case" over the water.
Frank H-J and his mate had one each, they kept at the local aero club. Every time you make a handsfree call you use his anti squeal/feedback technology, not bad for an ex DCA FS guy . I think he's gone to heaven.
Our mate Ozexpat has my deepest sympathy trapped as he is in a dinosaur or is it pterodactyl. 
Brings tears to me eyes it does.
I'll deny I ever said it, but, given the money and the choice, Falcon would be my chioice of jet.
F900 anywhere in Oz and SE Asia out of an 1100m dirt strip, that's Rolls Royce aerodynamics.
It's really a twin with another engine for "just in case" over the water.
Frank H-J and his mate had one each, they kept at the local aero club. Every time you make a handsfree call you use his anti squeal/feedback technology, not bad for an ex DCA FS guy . I think he's gone to heaven.
Our mate Ozexpat has my deepest sympathy trapped as he is in a dinosaur or is it pterodactyl.
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My new favourite, (the plans are in the mail)!!!
Twin engine, Ulimited aerobatic rated, +9G -4G 150Kts cruise, Ceiling 16500ft
Turbine Powered!! 20Kts crosswind max
or piston powered, still 120 Kts cruise!
single engine climb of 600Ft/min
Flies very well in turbulance, better than a C172 due to high wing loading
i cant think of a better way to get Twin Turbine time how many people can say they own their own twin turbine!
Twin engine, Ulimited aerobatic rated, +9G -4G 150Kts cruise, Ceiling 16500ft
Turbine Powered!! 20Kts crosswind max
or piston powered, still 120 Kts cruise!
single engine climb of 600Ft/min
Flies very well in turbulance, better than a C172 due to high wing loading
i cant think of a better way to get Twin Turbine time how many people can say they own their own twin turbine!
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Hmm... The ultimate twin?
Well, based purely on sex appeal - it's gotta be a Shorts 360.
Who could deny this beautiful machine?
I mean c'mon - think of the chicks this thing would pull...
Cheers,
Soulman.
Well, based purely on sex appeal - it's gotta be a Shorts 360.
Who could deny this beautiful machine?
I mean c'mon - think of the chicks this thing would pull...
Cheers,
Soulman.
Grandpa Aerotart
Whatsit look like when ya take it outa the packing box.....old i know..ok I'll get me hat
Gaunty the aerodynamics of the Falcon range of aircraft are just amazing...and built like brick outhouses...no turbulence limitation speed...well Vmo/Mmo but you know what I mean...super stiff in turbulence, not a waffle in her makeup anywhere. The Dassault people are very clever chaps. And they truly handle like fighters.
On post C check test flights I was required to take her beyond the .865 Mmo by some considerable margin that escapes me now. Then whip out the boards and record where she ended up...to check the rigging of the speed brakes. Never got more than a slight mach rumble even in a full power M.89ish dive from 41000 with loads of forward control column pressure to overcome the mach trim system...took my hands off and whipped out the speed brake......and the engineers readjusted the rigging when we got back
In the high angle of attack/slow speed/stalling end of the spectrum her manners were impeccable....she shook like a dog passing a pineapple with some stupid nose up attitude and if, by judicous use of thrust, you managed to get the nose up above 20 degrees AoA the inboard leading edge devices retracted and lowered the nose no matter how hard you swung off the control column...from 10-12 degrees AoA up to 20 and all the way back the outboard leading edge devices were going in and out automagically to keep you right side up.
No stick shaker/pusher required and non installed....just pure aerodynamics.
Just a wonderfull aeroplane...the chap who endorsed me (PDG) heard in France when he was picking up a new 900 that the Dassault Test Pilots took the 900 past Mach 1.0 with no problems encountered.
What can you say about the 441...the pre eminate 400 series Cessna...and considerably better than the early 500 series Cessnas...even the C560 Ultra I flew for a little while was only 90kts faster and had less range and a smaller cabin with way less payload ability. No wonder Cessna stopped building Conquests..why they waited so long, compared to Beech/Piper before marketing a Pressurised Turboprop is anyones guess...but if they'd built them years earlier instead of near the end of the GA boom Beechcraft woulda sold lots less King Airs and Piper woulda sold non of their Cheyanes. Little doubt that Cessna's desire to build and sell Slowtations killed off the Conquest 2.
Why didn't we have them in PNG? Prolly the same reason King Airs were thin on the ground...Dennis couldn't get 19 paying bums, 1 pilot and a village girl trolley + 500kg of bags in one and send it clear across PNG....unlike a Bandit
I guess they came along too late to be a C402 replacement when Dennis had already ordered bandits...gotta say I think he picked the right aeroplane almost everytime.
Gaunty the aerodynamics of the Falcon range of aircraft are just amazing...and built like brick outhouses...no turbulence limitation speed...well Vmo/Mmo but you know what I mean...super stiff in turbulence, not a waffle in her makeup anywhere. The Dassault people are very clever chaps. And they truly handle like fighters.
On post C check test flights I was required to take her beyond the .865 Mmo by some considerable margin that escapes me now. Then whip out the boards and record where she ended up...to check the rigging of the speed brakes. Never got more than a slight mach rumble even in a full power M.89ish dive from 41000 with loads of forward control column pressure to overcome the mach trim system...took my hands off and whipped out the speed brake......and the engineers readjusted the rigging when we got back
In the high angle of attack/slow speed/stalling end of the spectrum her manners were impeccable....she shook like a dog passing a pineapple with some stupid nose up attitude and if, by judicous use of thrust, you managed to get the nose up above 20 degrees AoA the inboard leading edge devices retracted and lowered the nose no matter how hard you swung off the control column...from 10-12 degrees AoA up to 20 and all the way back the outboard leading edge devices were going in and out automagically to keep you right side up.
No stick shaker/pusher required and non installed....just pure aerodynamics.
Just a wonderfull aeroplane...the chap who endorsed me (PDG) heard in France when he was picking up a new 900 that the Dassault Test Pilots took the 900 past Mach 1.0 with no problems encountered.
What can you say about the 441...the pre eminate 400 series Cessna...and considerably better than the early 500 series Cessnas...even the C560 Ultra I flew for a little while was only 90kts faster and had less range and a smaller cabin with way less payload ability. No wonder Cessna stopped building Conquests..why they waited so long, compared to Beech/Piper before marketing a Pressurised Turboprop is anyones guess...but if they'd built them years earlier instead of near the end of the GA boom Beechcraft woulda sold lots less King Airs and Piper woulda sold non of their Cheyanes. Little doubt that Cessna's desire to build and sell Slowtations killed off the Conquest 2.
Why didn't we have them in PNG? Prolly the same reason King Airs were thin on the ground...Dennis couldn't get 19 paying bums, 1 pilot and a village girl trolley + 500kg of bags in one and send it clear across PNG....unlike a Bandit
I guess they came along too late to be a C402 replacement when Dennis had already ordered bandits...gotta say I think he picked the right aeroplane almost everytime.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 9th Dec 2004 at 15:31.
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why they waited so long, compared to Beech/Piper before marketing a Pressurised Turboprop is anyones guess..
They went straight to the Citation for for FAR25 protection and superior peformance to the B200 at the same capital and operating costs.
The original concept drawings were basically a C421 with a pair of Pratts on the back.
The Citation production began in 1972, the first Conquest II (they renamed the PT6 powered C425 from Corsair to Conquest 1 for marketing purposes) did not come until 1978 and was meant to fill the hole for the owner single pilot market.
It was almost stillborn due to an accident (catastrophic in flight break up due empennage/elevator failure causing a bunt at cruise) very early in its introduction. They grounded them all until the answer could be found and delivered a new C421C to every owner for use until they could suss the problem.
It was thought that it was a bonding failure problem with the empennage. It turned out the operator had made an "adjustment" to increase the elevator trim range to compensate for running out of nose down trim. This was because they were carrying a few too many pax down the back (14 I think). The "adjustment" allowed the (original single screw) trimjack to wind itself off beyond the stop, instantaneous loss of trim = bunt = you know the drill.
The redesign added the twin screw Citation trimjack and a beef up of the empennage, adding weight to the whole assembly which turned a beatifully balanced design into one with a slight C of G problem with high pax loads. This could be simply fixed by relocating the O2 from the tail to the nose compartment.
This took some time and a fair bit of steam out of the potential of the aircraft and it took a fair while to recover the market, by the time it did the insane liability issues took over and not being FAR 25 the manufacturing liability insurances went through the roof.
The pain you get hitting your head against a brick wall, stops..........
Interestingly, the main problem we had in marketing the type was simply that operators would look at the disposable and decide that it would not go anywhere with any passengers.
They applied King Air 200 numbers for climb performance, altitude, FF and TAS of course in those terms you would be right.
But it wasn't a King Air 1930s airframe, it didn't have PT6s, had a high altitude wing and props went like stink and routinely starting cruise at levels and FFs King Air drivers only dreamt about. They simply would not believe the performance numbers.
But then I suppose if you've been riding a donkey forever, the concept of a thoroughbred horse is a bit hard to grasp.
It was a loooong battle, a lot of education and just about when we had it won they stopped production
The rest is history.
Grandpa Aerotart
The original concept drawings were basically a C421 with a pair of Pratts on the back.
