The state of aviation
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The state of aviation
Was reading 'AOPA's national day of action', and' related' threads... Was wondering what y'all think about the general state of aviation and what can be done to fix it...
Here goes my soapbox:
I believe that all the woes of aviation stem from two basic problems.
1. The general public are afraid of aeroplanes. Flight is a mystery. Flying isn't seen as a practical, affordable form of transport. We need to promote awareness of aviation through the next generation of wannabe pilots: introduce aviation to the high school curriculum, conduct holiday camps, whatever. With awareness comes acceptance.
2. So much infighting and bitching goes on within the industry that we have no united front to present to either the government or the public. The major parties will listen to, and make changes for, groups that have the power to put them in, and keep them in, government. I feel that the system needs restructuring from the inside out... A regulatory body that all aviators feel that they can trust, leaders we can look up to etc.
Problems such as accessibilty, over regulation, deregulation, NAS ans so on could all be addressed by first going back to grass roots and fixing structural and PR problems... Well, thats my thought anyway.
Would love to hear all your ideas on what the problems are (rather than who the problems are) and some constructive criticism.
Floor is over to you
Here goes my soapbox:
I believe that all the woes of aviation stem from two basic problems.
1. The general public are afraid of aeroplanes. Flight is a mystery. Flying isn't seen as a practical, affordable form of transport. We need to promote awareness of aviation through the next generation of wannabe pilots: introduce aviation to the high school curriculum, conduct holiday camps, whatever. With awareness comes acceptance.
2. So much infighting and bitching goes on within the industry that we have no united front to present to either the government or the public. The major parties will listen to, and make changes for, groups that have the power to put them in, and keep them in, government. I feel that the system needs restructuring from the inside out... A regulatory body that all aviators feel that they can trust, leaders we can look up to etc.
Problems such as accessibilty, over regulation, deregulation, NAS ans so on could all be addressed by first going back to grass roots and fixing structural and PR problems... Well, thats my thought anyway.
Would love to hear all your ideas on what the problems are (rather than who the problems are) and some constructive criticism.
Floor is over to you
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Start with making Airservices Australia a non-profit organisation. Any after cost revenue is either credited on a pro-rata basis or placed into auditable safety programmes or related equipment purchases.
Do away with trying to make ATS competitive. Make it again one of the few things that should be controlled by government - not accountants with a view to profit.
Do away with 'performance bonuses' for managers of such organisations.
Perhaps recreate the DCA?
Reduce or even abolish all the parasite taxes on aviation.
Do away with trying to make ATS competitive. Make it again one of the few things that should be controlled by government - not accountants with a view to profit.
Do away with 'performance bonuses' for managers of such organisations.
Perhaps recreate the DCA?
Reduce or even abolish all the parasite taxes on aviation.
Last edited by Uncommon Sense; 24th Aug 2005 at 10:06.
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Agree with above .
The problem with a united front is that there are differing opinions as to how certain segments of aviation dhould be conducted.
AFAP and AOPA are prime examples. It's an us and them situation.
If there was a group hug to happen there would be carnage
The problem with a united front is that there are differing opinions as to how certain segments of aviation dhould be conducted.
AFAP and AOPA are prime examples. It's an us and them situation.
If there was a group hug to happen there would be carnage
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1. 1000 hours minimum for an instructor rating
2. only full-time award wages
3. no planes in the GA sector allowed to be more than 10 years of age
4. govt financial support for initial implementation of point 3
2. only full-time award wages
3. no planes in the GA sector allowed to be more than 10 years of age
4. govt financial support for initial implementation of point 3
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I think to get planes younger than 10 years old, we first need planes CAPABLE of replacing the planes that are more than 10 years old.
What do you replace a 210 with?? Great aeroplanes and there's nothing out there that can do the job they do to my knowledge.
NotAnIssue
What do you replace a 210 with?? Great aeroplanes and there's nothing out there that can do the job they do to my knowledge.
NotAnIssue
Agree with Uncommon Sense and Huntsman on 1000hrs minimum. Would also like to add truth in advertising regarding "That Job" at the end of that $50-80000 course!
Better promotion of aviation as a worthwhile pursuit. (A pilots licence (PPL) costs less than an average 750cc motorcycle.) Stop sale of infrastructure to non-aviation bodies.
Better promotion of aviation as a worthwhile pursuit. (A pilots licence (PPL) costs less than an average 750cc motorcycle.) Stop sale of infrastructure to non-aviation bodies.
I agree with Cap71n. Some coherent policy and strategy about aviation would be nice.
Despite all the doom and gloom, i have a funny feeling that GA is going to "take off" (sorry) again rather soon.
For about four reasons:
1. GA is not as expensive as you think compared to the alternatives. I am sick of driving 300k each way to a hobby farm each weekend. Air is a cheaper and better mode for me provided the weather is good.
2. The Europeans are sticking it to the Americans - with new technology like diesels, composites and avionics (GPS) we might actually see some competition and LOWER prices. I don't think it is expensive today, and its only going to get cheaper.
3. New technology means that I can operate a sophisticated aircraft from grass fields. If the price of YMMB gets too high, well stuff 'em. Lilydale. Coldstream or Pt.Cook it will be.
4. There are newer and better destinations for GA. Once people get used to the idea. Why do I need a holiday house 3 hours by road from Melbourne? Why don't I go two hours by air? What about going to Escott Cattle Station (top spot) for a week? Sooner rather than later the public is going to wake up to the options GA gives them.
Sorry for the incoherent ramblings, but I am an optimist.
Despite all the doom and gloom, i have a funny feeling that GA is going to "take off" (sorry) again rather soon.
For about four reasons:
1. GA is not as expensive as you think compared to the alternatives. I am sick of driving 300k each way to a hobby farm each weekend. Air is a cheaper and better mode for me provided the weather is good.
2. The Europeans are sticking it to the Americans - with new technology like diesels, composites and avionics (GPS) we might actually see some competition and LOWER prices. I don't think it is expensive today, and its only going to get cheaper.
3. New technology means that I can operate a sophisticated aircraft from grass fields. If the price of YMMB gets too high, well stuff 'em. Lilydale. Coldstream or Pt.Cook it will be.
4. There are newer and better destinations for GA. Once people get used to the idea. Why do I need a holiday house 3 hours by road from Melbourne? Why don't I go two hours by air? What about going to Escott Cattle Station (top spot) for a week? Sooner rather than later the public is going to wake up to the options GA gives them.
Sorry for the incoherent ramblings, but I am an optimist.
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1. GA is not as expensive as you think compared to the alternatives. I am sick of driving 300k each way to a hobby farm each weekend. Air is a cheaper and better mode for me provided the weather is good.
2. The Europeans are sticking it to the Americans - with new technology like diesels, composites and avionics (GPS) we might actually see some competition and LOWER prices. I don't think it is expensive today, and its only going to get cheaper.
3. New technology means that I can operate a sophisticated aircraft from grass fields. If the price of YMMB gets too high, well stuff 'em. Lilydale. Coldstream or Pt.Cook it will be.
4. There are newer and better destinations for GA. Once people get used to the idea. Why do I need a holiday house 3 hours by road from Melbourne? Why don't I go two hours by air? What about going to Escott Cattle Station (top spot) for a week? Sooner rather than later the public is going to wake up to the options GA gives them.
Sorry for the incoherent ramblings, but I am an optimist..
2. The Europeans are sticking it to the Americans - with new technology like diesels, composites and avionics (GPS) we might actually see some competition and LOWER prices. I don't think it is expensive today, and its only going to get cheaper.
3. New technology means that I can operate a sophisticated aircraft from grass fields. If the price of YMMB gets too high, well stuff 'em. Lilydale. Coldstream or Pt.Cook it will be.
4. There are newer and better destinations for GA. Once people get used to the idea. Why do I need a holiday house 3 hours by road from Melbourne? Why don't I go two hours by air? What about going to Escott Cattle Station (top spot) for a week? Sooner rather than later the public is going to wake up to the options GA gives them.
Sorry for the incoherent ramblings, but I am an optimist..
apart from that, i agree with all above! the downhill spiral all begun with the "user pays" system. and bad press from Uneducated news reporters!, what we need is regular government funding, for our Infrastructure Indusrty, just like the RTA etc, and flight training made available to High school students! as an option on their syllabus.
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GA is not as expensive as you think compared to the alternatives.
It happens in other countries around the world but GA in Australia is struggling as it is...
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O.K. Here's my spin
I think that the training sector GA is dying because:
1. Today there is a wider variety of entertainment available and in general there is less perceived glammour in aviation. Ultralights are seen as being cheaper and less regualted.
All this =Less recreational pilots in GA
2. Kids (and their parents) these days are looking for a career in which the rewards are equal to the effort (not to mention expense) to put into it. Being a pilot does not stack up well against most other careers.
(Ironically HECS and PELS will actually detract from Aviation being percieved as a sound career choice)
All this =Less CPLs training in GA
Sorry to sound a bit pessimistic, but me finks zatz da fax!
1. Today there is a wider variety of entertainment available and in general there is less perceived glammour in aviation. Ultralights are seen as being cheaper and less regualted.
All this =Less recreational pilots in GA
2. Kids (and their parents) these days are looking for a career in which the rewards are equal to the effort (not to mention expense) to put into it. Being a pilot does not stack up well against most other careers.
(Ironically HECS and PELS will actually detract from Aviation being percieved as a sound career choice)
All this =Less CPLs training in GA
Sorry to sound a bit pessimistic, but me finks zatz da fax!
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locusthunter you definatly hit the nail on the head. Why would any intelligent, ratiional high school leaver even contemplate that they will be financially better off making a living in GA in Australia compared with a tertiary qualification.
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Exactly- and the word is out now about GA. This site provides info to any wannbes.
Students interested in Aviation these days generally know quite a lot about the hard road to no-where...
Students interested in Aviation these days generally know quite a lot about the hard road to no-where...
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The road to no where
If you are that p!ssed off with the industry why stay.
Yes it is damn hard
yes there is bugger all money
yes the conditions a great deal of the time suck.
Seeing a sunset or sunrise at altitude...nice
conducting your flight to the best of your ability and seeing marked improvement from last flight..nice
being paid to do something you absolutely love...priceless
why do you stay ?
because you are a pilot and enjoy what you do
if not........get a desk job
If you are that p!ssed off with the industry why stay.
Yes it is damn hard
yes there is bugger all money
yes the conditions a great deal of the time suck.
Seeing a sunset or sunrise at altitude...nice
conducting your flight to the best of your ability and seeing marked improvement from last flight..nice
being paid to do something you absolutely love...priceless
why do you stay ?
because you are a pilot and enjoy what you do
if not........get a desk job
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Maxgrad
I think alot of drivers would get out - if they could. I know it is not a massive difficulty to get out and start another career - thousands do it every year.
Many, if not most drivers have put absolutely everything into their careers. Many have no other qualifications as they went straight into dead end jobs to pay for flying lessons or into full time study after school with the associated debt at the end of it all.
As the years tick by, "just gotta get 1,000TT ..... just gotta get 500 multi ..... just gotta get some turbine time" etc. etc then I will be alright. By the time you realise that it may never happen, you are in your 30's, maybe with a few kids or something else that makes it very difficult to start over again.
It is interesting when people ask is it all worth it?
Those who have a career where their efforts have been rightly rewarded will have a high percentage that say yes, wouldn't change a thing. I suspect this percentage then starts to spiral as you work down the line.
I gave it away for a couple of years (wasn't able to get that first elusive job) and I remember telling a couple of GA driver friends at the pub that I was seriously considering giving it another go. Their response at the time confused me. They almost got angry at me, basicly said I was a moron and said I had been close to the industry for a number of years and should be able to make a more informed decision.
Still happy with my decision, I think??? - probably lucky I don't have other worthwhile qualifications because if I did, I am not sure if I would still be doing this?
I think alot of drivers would get out - if they could. I know it is not a massive difficulty to get out and start another career - thousands do it every year.
Many, if not most drivers have put absolutely everything into their careers. Many have no other qualifications as they went straight into dead end jobs to pay for flying lessons or into full time study after school with the associated debt at the end of it all.
As the years tick by, "just gotta get 1,000TT ..... just gotta get 500 multi ..... just gotta get some turbine time" etc. etc then I will be alright. By the time you realise that it may never happen, you are in your 30's, maybe with a few kids or something else that makes it very difficult to start over again.
It is interesting when people ask is it all worth it?
Those who have a career where their efforts have been rightly rewarded will have a high percentage that say yes, wouldn't change a thing. I suspect this percentage then starts to spiral as you work down the line.
I gave it away for a couple of years (wasn't able to get that first elusive job) and I remember telling a couple of GA driver friends at the pub that I was seriously considering giving it another go. Their response at the time confused me. They almost got angry at me, basicly said I was a moron and said I had been close to the industry for a number of years and should be able to make a more informed decision.
Still happy with my decision, I think??? - probably lucky I don't have other worthwhile qualifications because if I did, I am not sure if I would still be doing this?
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i agree. if the industry is to takeoff prices must reduces and jobs must be made easier to get. at the rate the industry is going more and more small GA buisnesses are going broke which means there are less and less jobs for low time pilots. Also regional airlines need to be more accessible to the public i had not even heard of 
until i got into flying so how should the rest of australia. The government needs to see how hopeless GA is becoming and the the benifit it gives. I think GA needs some sort of union the problem being if pilots kick up stink about poor conditions they risk loosing there jobs.
thats what i think is wrong with GA
until i got into flying so how should the rest of australia. The government needs to see how hopeless GA is becoming and the the benifit it gives. I think GA needs some sort of union the problem being if pilots kick up stink about poor conditions they risk loosing there jobs.thats what i think is wrong with GA
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In australia you have a dying socialist economy. That's good. Some of the benefits are you have an award wage that is livable and many good conditions like health super, minimum wage etc. In the US you have a capitalist economy. This means the industry is inundated with competition. It is much easier to get a job here. (though not as easy as everyone in oz thinks) However with competition you have few work rules, poor pay, poor health benefits, no retirement fund, etc.
So the point is if you have one you cannot have the other. My career has progressed fast in the US, but it's paycheck to paycheck. Having said that our company is putting guys with <1000TT on jets.
So the point is if you have one you cannot have the other. My career has progressed fast in the US, but it's paycheck to paycheck. Having said that our company is putting guys with <1000TT on jets.
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There is a very good reason why GA jobs are hard to find. It's not that there are too few jobs, it's because there are too many new pilots.
Most commercial pilots would consider themselves professionals but most 'professional' occupations have a yearly quota for the number of entrants who can enter at the tertiary level. Can you imagine how many out of work doctors, lawyers, engineers, vets, physios etc etc there would be if all you had to do was rock up with the cash and say 'I want to be a (doctor)'? Those occupations are regulated because having a glut of unemployed professionals packing shelves at Woolies benefits no one.
The GA industry, and flying schools in particular, are dishonest in the extreme when they tell new pilots how exciting the industry is at the moment and how good your chances of scoring well paying jobs are. When was the last time you heard a marketing manager or CP/CFI tell a prospective student there was only a slight chance of scoring a great job right out of CPL and you'd be better off joining the Air Force?
I know of guys back in the 80's who graduated high school with TE scores in the 700's yet now fly for QANTAS, Cathy etc simply because Mum and Dad had the cash to put them through flying school. Nothing wrong with that, and these guys certainly were not dumb, they obviously had enough application and dedication to work through a very demanding training environment, but the fact is without that cash they maybe digging ditches right now.
By all means allow those with the passion and few thousand dollars to train to PPL and keep that end of GA flying. Fill the skies with recreational pilots!! But if you want to become a professional pilot (CPL/ATPL) then the job market will dictate if it needs you or not. The market forces of supply and demand never lie and if you have too much supply then prices will be depressed. That's why wages in GA are crap. There are simply too many CPL pilots out there who have had their dreams shattered because the job market couldn't accommodate them.
The Air Force doesn't let just anyone commence flying training with them. The rigors of military flying aside, they simply don't have the aircraft/resources/money to accommodate all the pilots that want to fly with them. Guess what? Neither does the civil side of aviation! There are only so many aircraft flying that have somebody paying for them to be in the air.
Let's stop lying to prospective pilots and apply the same rigorous selection standards that apply to other professions.
Most commercial pilots would consider themselves professionals but most 'professional' occupations have a yearly quota for the number of entrants who can enter at the tertiary level. Can you imagine how many out of work doctors, lawyers, engineers, vets, physios etc etc there would be if all you had to do was rock up with the cash and say 'I want to be a (doctor)'? Those occupations are regulated because having a glut of unemployed professionals packing shelves at Woolies benefits no one.
The GA industry, and flying schools in particular, are dishonest in the extreme when they tell new pilots how exciting the industry is at the moment and how good your chances of scoring well paying jobs are. When was the last time you heard a marketing manager or CP/CFI tell a prospective student there was only a slight chance of scoring a great job right out of CPL and you'd be better off joining the Air Force?
I know of guys back in the 80's who graduated high school with TE scores in the 700's yet now fly for QANTAS, Cathy etc simply because Mum and Dad had the cash to put them through flying school. Nothing wrong with that, and these guys certainly were not dumb, they obviously had enough application and dedication to work through a very demanding training environment, but the fact is without that cash they maybe digging ditches right now.
By all means allow those with the passion and few thousand dollars to train to PPL and keep that end of GA flying. Fill the skies with recreational pilots!! But if you want to become a professional pilot (CPL/ATPL) then the job market will dictate if it needs you or not. The market forces of supply and demand never lie and if you have too much supply then prices will be depressed. That's why wages in GA are crap. There are simply too many CPL pilots out there who have had their dreams shattered because the job market couldn't accommodate them.
The Air Force doesn't let just anyone commence flying training with them. The rigors of military flying aside, they simply don't have the aircraft/resources/money to accommodate all the pilots that want to fly with them. Guess what? Neither does the civil side of aviation! There are only so many aircraft flying that have somebody paying for them to be in the air.
Let's stop lying to prospective pilots and apply the same rigorous selection standards that apply to other professions.
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Well, call me uneducated, call me stupid, call me a bag of lima beans.
All reminds me of a quote...
Pilots don't have to be smart, if they were smart they'd have done something else!
And if you have worked in coles Kununurra, coles Darwin and coles Broome for any great length of time whilst waiting for "the break" you probably have had that same thought. Still, it weedles the truely passionate ones from the quitters.
All reminds me of a quote...
Pilots don't have to be smart, if they were smart they'd have done something else!
And if you have worked in coles Kununurra, coles Darwin and coles Broome for any great length of time whilst waiting for "the break" you probably have had that same thought. Still, it weedles the truely passionate ones from the quitters.