"Professional" Pilots???
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"Professional" Pilots???
All I can say is that it must be something in the Avgas or JetA1.
I'm going to vent here because my outlook is an outsiders one, and I think that maybe some of you just might profit from a bit of advice.
I am a student pilot who is doing a PPL for the fun of it.
Some of you guys call yourselves professionals, however some of the things you get up to make me want to cry.
For a start, there is this whole business about NAS by the VFRistas and opposed by the "professionals". Can I please suggest that some of you get together and arrive at a common position and quickly?
As long as this argument continues you are all running huge risks. These risks are political and regulatory, but I don't think many of you understand that.
If there is a midair between a VFR and an RTP aircraft while this silliness is going on, then we can all reasonably expect that the political backlash from it will be extreme, no matter who's fault it is. The public expectation and pride in Australia's air safety record is set very high.
For starters, how would you like VFR aircraft banned from all controlled airspace permanently? And for all you smirking RTP professionals, How would you like another layer or two of ATC controls and restrictions, coupled with a few months or years downturn in pax, and for good measure, lets throw in mandatory drug and alcohol testing?
Muzzle Dick Smith, publish a dissenting point of view, maybe even form another association?
Secondly, some of you have very limited expereince outside aviation, and it shows. The best example I can point to is the sad events of 1989 at Ansett. which still causes bitterness. However AOPA's planned "National Day of Action" demonstrates that stupidity among the pilot community is alive and well. Some of you guys seem to really believe that pilots do walk on water. Please consider the possibility that you might be in error.
Thirdly, some of you call yourselves "professionals" and stand on your dignity when anyone dares to open their mouth, yet almost in the same breath you rabbit on about the most flagrant breaches of regulations and other unprofessional behaviour.
Finally, the behaviour and moderation on the "dununda" forums is a joke, with false concern for facts, truth and the sensitivities of other people, let alone any respect for any else's opinions. As a place on the internet where you can find coherent discussion, maybe even enlightenment on aviation matters, this site is not real flash.
Since the steam will be coming out of some of your ears by now, I will finish off. I am a student pilot, and I can afford to do it for fun. I have two degrees and a twenty five years career in business, including airline engineering, corporate strategy consulting, aerospace / defence senior management, a stint as a Government adviser and General Management in manufacturing, IT, and Venture Capital related companies.
You lot seem like a bunch of overgrown school children.
I'm going to vent here because my outlook is an outsiders one, and I think that maybe some of you just might profit from a bit of advice.
I am a student pilot who is doing a PPL for the fun of it.
Some of you guys call yourselves professionals, however some of the things you get up to make me want to cry.
For a start, there is this whole business about NAS by the VFRistas and opposed by the "professionals". Can I please suggest that some of you get together and arrive at a common position and quickly?
As long as this argument continues you are all running huge risks. These risks are political and regulatory, but I don't think many of you understand that.
If there is a midair between a VFR and an RTP aircraft while this silliness is going on, then we can all reasonably expect that the political backlash from it will be extreme, no matter who's fault it is. The public expectation and pride in Australia's air safety record is set very high.
For starters, how would you like VFR aircraft banned from all controlled airspace permanently? And for all you smirking RTP professionals, How would you like another layer or two of ATC controls and restrictions, coupled with a few months or years downturn in pax, and for good measure, lets throw in mandatory drug and alcohol testing?
Muzzle Dick Smith, publish a dissenting point of view, maybe even form another association?
Secondly, some of you have very limited expereince outside aviation, and it shows. The best example I can point to is the sad events of 1989 at Ansett. which still causes bitterness. However AOPA's planned "National Day of Action" demonstrates that stupidity among the pilot community is alive and well. Some of you guys seem to really believe that pilots do walk on water. Please consider the possibility that you might be in error.
Thirdly, some of you call yourselves "professionals" and stand on your dignity when anyone dares to open their mouth, yet almost in the same breath you rabbit on about the most flagrant breaches of regulations and other unprofessional behaviour.
Finally, the behaviour and moderation on the "dununda" forums is a joke, with false concern for facts, truth and the sensitivities of other people, let alone any respect for any else's opinions. As a place on the internet where you can find coherent discussion, maybe even enlightenment on aviation matters, this site is not real flash.
Since the steam will be coming out of some of your ears by now, I will finish off. I am a student pilot, and I can afford to do it for fun. I have two degrees and a twenty five years career in business, including airline engineering, corporate strategy consulting, aerospace / defence senior management, a stint as a Government adviser and General Management in manufacturing, IT, and Venture Capital related companies.
You lot seem like a bunch of overgrown school children.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Strewth, Mate. Don't hold back, tell us what you really think. 
Whats with all the quals?. Couldn't ya hold down a job for long, or what?
Whats with all the quals?. Couldn't ya hold down a job for long, or what?
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You don't seem to like visiting here.
There is an easy solution to that problem.
(BTW: Just because it has two 'P' 's in PPrune, it doesnt meant that either or both apply to many of the posters. But , hey, thats the internet!)
There is an easy solution to that problem.
(BTW: Just because it has two 'P' 's in PPrune, it doesnt meant that either or both apply to many of the posters. But , hey, thats the internet!)
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Professional Pilots
I agree. I'm a professional pilot and have been for many years. I used to read pprune regularly but now very rarely. With some exceptions, and a lot of my colleagues agree, the standard of post is generally abysmal. A lot of you will think this one is too: so be it.
Most of the professional pilots I know don't read pprune. Reasons as cited by the original poster, more power to his pen. Maybe I'm becoming jaded after many years (25+) in the industry, but if that is so, I have a lot of company.
Most of the professional pilots I know don't read pprune. Reasons as cited by the original poster, more power to his pen. Maybe I'm becoming jaded after many years (25+) in the industry, but if that is so, I have a lot of company.
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What is an RTP "professional"? RTP aircraft?
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
So what? Who comes to an anonymous internet rumour forum to find indisputable facts?
I think you need to reassess your own direction, first, Sunfish. This place is mainly good for a laugh!
For starters, how would you like VFR aircraft banned from all controlled airspace permanently? And for all you smirking RTP professionals, How would you like another layer or two of ATC controls and restrictions, coupled with a few months or years downturn in pax,
Finally, the behaviour and moderation on the "dununda" forums is a joke, with false concern for facts, truth and the sensitivities of other people, let alone any respect for any else's opinions.
I think you need to reassess your own direction, first, Sunfish. This place is mainly good for a laugh!
Last edited by itchybum; 19th Sep 2004 at 11:28.
Just Binos
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With many reservations on individual points, I agree with the basic thrust of Sunfish's argument. The fact that he is a flying novice shouldn't blind us who are regulars here to the truth of some of his points.
I have maintained for a long time that an outsider who didn't know any Australian pilots, and who formed his/her opinions based purely on what they read in the D&G forum would come to the conclusion that a vast majority of pilots were insular, argumentative, back-stabbing, intolerant, egotistical, narrow minded know-alls.
What a shame this is. I have met so many great people in aviation over the years, and had many memorable, err, social interactions with them. We are fortunate to work in a field which has so much potential for camaraderie, yet we seem determined to play a horrible game of one-upmanship online.
I have several times walked away from D&G disgusted at the schoolyard quality of the debate, but I keep coming back. Unfortunately when the issue is as divisive as NAS I plead guilty to getting as personal as anybody about one particular person, which makes me somewhat of a hypocrite I suppose.
Sunfish, I disagree with you particularly about the quality of moderation here. To moderate the egos on this forum would be a nightmare, and I'm impressed at how well the various Woomeri manage. I also disagree with any attempt to simplify the most divisive issue ever to hit Oz aviation, namely 1989. I have my views, but they are irrelevant. I THINK I know what I would have done in the same circumstances, but until we are in that position none of us knows what we would do. I have no argument with anybody on either side with their actions at the time, again, not that any of them care.
I find it saddest of all to witness the sniping between pilots of different airlines. It goes to show how much standards have fallen. The usual suspects will have their own ideas on why this is, and they have been raised often already. It is unlikely the egos involved will allow things to change in the foreseeable future.
That, in the final analysis for Oz aviation, is a shame.
I have maintained for a long time that an outsider who didn't know any Australian pilots, and who formed his/her opinions based purely on what they read in the D&G forum would come to the conclusion that a vast majority of pilots were insular, argumentative, back-stabbing, intolerant, egotistical, narrow minded know-alls.
What a shame this is. I have met so many great people in aviation over the years, and had many memorable, err, social interactions with them. We are fortunate to work in a field which has so much potential for camaraderie, yet we seem determined to play a horrible game of one-upmanship online.
I have several times walked away from D&G disgusted at the schoolyard quality of the debate, but I keep coming back. Unfortunately when the issue is as divisive as NAS I plead guilty to getting as personal as anybody about one particular person, which makes me somewhat of a hypocrite I suppose.
Sunfish, I disagree with you particularly about the quality of moderation here. To moderate the egos on this forum would be a nightmare, and I'm impressed at how well the various Woomeri manage. I also disagree with any attempt to simplify the most divisive issue ever to hit Oz aviation, namely 1989. I have my views, but they are irrelevant. I THINK I know what I would have done in the same circumstances, but until we are in that position none of us knows what we would do. I have no argument with anybody on either side with their actions at the time, again, not that any of them care.
I find it saddest of all to witness the sniping between pilots of different airlines. It goes to show how much standards have fallen. The usual suspects will have their own ideas on why this is, and they have been raised often already. It is unlikely the egos involved will allow things to change in the foreseeable future.
That, in the final analysis for Oz aviation, is a shame.
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By the way:
From the above quote I suspect gross ignorance is at play here if you really have no idea about the other airline and their pilots involved in the pilots' strike. To allude to the notion of the events taking place at Ansett alone is an insult to a lot of people around here, though not me luckily.
"Sniping" and rumour-mongering in this rumour forum has very little impact on day to day life in Australian aviation. Anyone who thinks pprune has much to do with keeping the aviation world turning is sadly mistaken. Unless you include things like blowing the lid on someone's embarrassing "feau pas" or however you spell it. Then pprune is the goods...
I've managed to keep my own a secret, so far.
The best example I can point to is the sad events of 1989 at Ansett. which still causes bitterness.
"Sniping" and rumour-mongering in this rumour forum has very little impact on day to day life in Australian aviation. Anyone who thinks pprune has much to do with keeping the aviation world turning is sadly mistaken. Unless you include things like blowing the lid on someone's embarrassing "feau pas" or however you spell it. Then pprune is the goods...
I've managed to keep my own a secret, so far.
Last edited by itchybum; 19th Sep 2004 at 11:31.
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I agree Totally Sunfish! I am also an outsider myself, i was fortunate enough to se the light on the Outside of the Aviation game here in Oz! I have over 10 Yrs in Engineering, and since leaving the plane game, become a manager, and now Majority shareholder and CEO of a company with activity in Property, Transport (not aviation) and the Music Industry. so now i Own my own aircraft, hold a PPL licence only (with ratings) and fly purely for my Own Pleasure.
If the Aviation Industry was a Business, it would not even be worth looking at their business card. By Industry i mean Air operators, Pilots and Regulators!
sadly "Professional Pilot" in Oz is just another way of saying "insecure and Ego driven"
eg, the events of 89! HAPPENED IN 89! that is 15 yrs ago! GET OVER IT, and Look to the Future! which at this present time, looks very bleek.
Its your Income, Profession, and Life, so how about looking to the future, and look for ways to Improve all areas of Aviation, for ALL.
If the Aviation Industry was a Business, it would not even be worth looking at their business card. By Industry i mean Air operators, Pilots and Regulators!
sadly "Professional Pilot" in Oz is just another way of saying "insecure and Ego driven"
eg, the events of 89! HAPPENED IN 89! that is 15 yrs ago! GET OVER IT, and Look to the Future! which at this present time, looks very bleek.
Its your Income, Profession, and Life, so how about looking to the future, and look for ways to Improve all areas of Aviation, for ALL.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Bino's
And we should do it again one day mate. I seem to remember you were one of the fun ones that did as I did, and had fun, regardless of who was watching us.
Maybe people shouldn't look at a website like this to try and assertain the profesionalism of the people within an industry.
People being people, come on to sites like this to gossip, spread or listen to rumors, generally unwind and have fun. that could involve winding people up, laughing at others opinions, vehemently disagreeing with others views, Ect.
Some of us that do populate sites such as this one, maintain our profesionalism in the cockpit/flightline, and then leave it there until we return to work tomorrow.
lets face it, do Police, Lawyers, plumbers, traffic wardens, school teachers, or any other profesionals that you know of, take their work home and maintain their profesionalism 24/7, or are they like normal people and let thier hair down and do what they want to, and say what they feel.
It would be a boring old world if we were all the same and agreed on everything.
I think some people on here take themselves way to serious, and forget that this a rumor based site, and is here for, Primarily, entertainment, not profesional screening.
If you want to judge peoples profesionalism, go to their flight planning rooms or cockpits, or their place of work, and then observe, and comment on your observations of people in their profesional enviroment.
I have met so many great people in aviation over the years, and had many memorable, err, social interactions with them.
Maybe people shouldn't look at a website like this to try and assertain the profesionalism of the people within an industry.
People being people, come on to sites like this to gossip, spread or listen to rumors, generally unwind and have fun. that could involve winding people up, laughing at others opinions, vehemently disagreeing with others views, Ect.
Some of us that do populate sites such as this one, maintain our profesionalism in the cockpit/flightline, and then leave it there until we return to work tomorrow.
lets face it, do Police, Lawyers, plumbers, traffic wardens, school teachers, or any other profesionals that you know of, take their work home and maintain their profesionalism 24/7, or are they like normal people and let thier hair down and do what they want to, and say what they feel.
It would be a boring old world if we were all the same and agreed on everything.
I think some people on here take themselves way to serious, and forget that this a rumor based site, and is here for, Primarily, entertainment, not profesional screening.
If you want to judge peoples profesionalism, go to their flight planning rooms or cockpits, or their place of work, and then observe, and comment on your observations of people in their profesional enviroment.
Just Binos
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Point taken Wiz, and I too hope we can do it again one day. On the occasion you mentioned there were people from all aspects of aviation and we all got on fine.
I just think in the bad old days people still managed to have a lot of fun and good times without stabbing everyone in the back. Let's hope we can all get back to that, and a willingness to see the other point of view on line would be a good place to start.
I just think in the bad old days people still managed to have a lot of fun and good times without stabbing everyone in the back. Let's hope we can all get back to that, and a willingness to see the other point of view on line would be a good place to start.
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Since the steam will be coming out of some of your ears by now, I will finish off. I am a student pilot, and I can afford to do it for fun. I have two degrees and a twenty five years career in business, including airline engineering, corporate strategy consulting, aerospace / defence senior management, a stint as a Government adviser and General Management in manufacturing, IT, and Venture Capital related companies.
Shame that you also suffer from that which you accuse Ppruner's of.
Flawed rhetoric, emotional reactions to emotional argument, incomplete logic, inability to deal with complexity and diversity.
When you went to university, it seems that you were short changed. You were probably expecting an education, and are perhaps under the delusion that you did; instead you were merely trained to do a certain job.
I recommend that you continue on to a CPL. You would fit right in with a lot of the folk that post here.
The behaviour you see has little to do with Australian pilots and a lot to do with this being an internet forum.
Internet forums are a poor format for debate. Text does not convey the subtleties of language that voice or the body does. Also, some people will say things in a manner that they wouldn't in person, safe in the knowledge that noone will know who they are.
You'd be wise to not judge individual people too much by what they say here.
Internet forums are a poor format for debate. Text does not convey the subtleties of language that voice or the body does. Also, some people will say things in a manner that they wouldn't in person, safe in the knowledge that noone will know who they are.
You'd be wise to not judge individual people too much by what they say here.
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Like a few of the posts, I too have many times walked away and refused to read / participate in Pprune for the many reasons and issues raised, but keep returning.
Just my opinion, but it seems the majority of posts come from ill informed people regurgitating what their instructor told them or from others doing no research or study themselves.
On the "prefessionalism" thing:
Wiz: You are one of the few members who post here whom I actually appreciate reading.
Yes this is a place to let your hair down and vent from time to in any manner of ways, but in respect to the crew room or cockpit being void of ill discipline, childlike or lack of professioanlism, I'm sure you've been around longer that most. From my few years in rpt I've seen on countless occasions a capt and fo turn up for work and not talk to eachother for personal reasons, capts & fos refusing to fly together, pilots turning up "under the weather", un-ironed shirt, unshaven, and utter rudeness shown to other employees (loaders, fa's, refuellers, the other crew member)..... I've even heard reports of punch-ups on the flightdeck!! Now, dare I mention the letters "TWU" amoungst certain crews, cockpits or crew rooms and then watch the fur fly! In an ideal world none of that would exist, but I've had the misfortune to witness it more times than I wish to recall.
It is my pathetic self taught opinion through experience that professionalism is a personal thing. The standards you set for yourself cannot be imposed let alone expected of others. Now, add that concept to a public forum of anonimity and you'll get 90% of the fodder that appears here on D&G.
I have a simple theory and have mentioned it to countless collegues, and the same applies to Pprune: If you don't like your job, the conditions, the aeroplane, the uniform, the SOPs.... or the forum, resign!! (There are other pilot forums which are well informed, without personal agenda and full of professioanl pilots sharing experience and knowledge happilly). I've often thought, as with Binos, what others from all over the world must think of Aussie pilots after reading D&G.
I am one of the sad individuals who loves my job, the aircraft I fly and took on the job fully aware of the conditions, pay packet, or lack thereof.
I accept that professioanlism both here and on the job is a self discipline that I think is unfortunaltely dying. I can't change others but can choose not to allow myself to slump. Just my 2 cents worth.
Just my opinion, but it seems the majority of posts come from ill informed people regurgitating what their instructor told them or from others doing no research or study themselves.
On the "prefessionalism" thing:
Wiz: You are one of the few members who post here whom I actually appreciate reading.
Yes this is a place to let your hair down and vent from time to in any manner of ways, but in respect to the crew room or cockpit being void of ill discipline, childlike or lack of professioanlism, I'm sure you've been around longer that most. From my few years in rpt I've seen on countless occasions a capt and fo turn up for work and not talk to eachother for personal reasons, capts & fos refusing to fly together, pilots turning up "under the weather", un-ironed shirt, unshaven, and utter rudeness shown to other employees (loaders, fa's, refuellers, the other crew member)..... I've even heard reports of punch-ups on the flightdeck!! Now, dare I mention the letters "TWU" amoungst certain crews, cockpits or crew rooms and then watch the fur fly! In an ideal world none of that would exist, but I've had the misfortune to witness it more times than I wish to recall.
It is my pathetic self taught opinion through experience that professionalism is a personal thing. The standards you set for yourself cannot be imposed let alone expected of others. Now, add that concept to a public forum of anonimity and you'll get 90% of the fodder that appears here on D&G.
I have a simple theory and have mentioned it to countless collegues, and the same applies to Pprune: If you don't like your job, the conditions, the aeroplane, the uniform, the SOPs.... or the forum, resign!! (There are other pilot forums which are well informed, without personal agenda and full of professioanl pilots sharing experience and knowledge happilly). I've often thought, as with Binos, what others from all over the world must think of Aussie pilots after reading D&G.
I am one of the sad individuals who loves my job, the aircraft I fly and took on the job fully aware of the conditions, pay packet, or lack thereof.
I accept that professioanlism both here and on the job is a self discipline that I think is unfortunaltely dying. I can't change others but can choose not to allow myself to slump. Just my 2 cents worth.
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Ultralights
You have hit the nail on the head, the users of this forum are a small hand full of EGO driven professional pilots. You see they have made it they are now instant experts on aviation and airspace. A famous quote from a chief pilot at a NAS workshop was "If you (GA) want to play with your little toys then do it outside our airspace" That would be the little toys he used to get his job I suppose? Perhaps not he may of started his first lesson in a RPT aircraft. Lets keep on destroying GA and when we have to start recruiting pilots from overseas to fly Australian aircraft they can hang their heads in shame.
PD
You have hit the nail on the head, the users of this forum are a small hand full of EGO driven professional pilots. You see they have made it they are now instant experts on aviation and airspace. A famous quote from a chief pilot at a NAS workshop was "If you (GA) want to play with your little toys then do it outside our airspace" That would be the little toys he used to get his job I suppose? Perhaps not he may of started his first lesson in a RPT aircraft. Lets keep on destroying GA and when we have to start recruiting pilots from overseas to fly Australian aircraft they can hang their heads in shame.
PD
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Are we a pack of over P.C lesbians or what?
What is with all the agreeing with Sunfish?
Here's my say bucko.
You and Smith oughta give each other a nice footrub and leave flying planes, maintaining planes, controlling planes', fueling planes and operating planes to the people who are paid to do it! Theres a reason why you sit on the fence at big airports and it aint ços youre busy funarsing about at uni!
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
What is with all the agreeing with Sunfish?
Here's my say bucko.
You and Smith oughta give each other a nice footrub and leave flying planes, maintaining planes, controlling planes', fueling planes and operating planes to the people who are paid to do it! Theres a reason why you sit on the fence at big airports and it aint ços youre busy funarsing about at uni!
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Mr.Buzzy
I love, you and people like you are the exact reason we have so much trouble in aviation reform. I would like to consider myself professional in my work and I have been on mosts sides of the fence as far as aircraft are concerned for the last 25 years at least. You take far too much for granted typical big headed EGO driven pilot, GO AND CHANGE YOUR NAPPY THERE IS A FUNNY SMELL AROUND.
PD
I love, you and people like you are the exact reason we have so much trouble in aviation reform. I would like to consider myself professional in my work and I have been on mosts sides of the fence as far as aircraft are concerned for the last 25 years at least. You take far too much for granted typical big headed EGO driven pilot, GO AND CHANGE YOUR NAPPY THERE IS A FUNNY SMELL AROUND.
PD
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Thanks Dwarf,
Read the forum man! Read what people that work in the industry feel is safe! We havent had reform we've had a zero industry input dictatorship forced on us.
Our airspace is for the travelling public.... The taxpaying general public. Not for some snob in his baron to blat about in. Aviation professionals represent the travelling public. Not the people that should be flying around them!
Read the forum man! Read what people that work in the industry feel is safe! We havent had reform we've had a zero industry input dictatorship forced on us.
Our airspace is for the travelling public.... The taxpaying general public. Not for some snob in his baron to blat about in. Aviation professionals represent the travelling public. Not the people that should be flying around them!
Last edited by Mr.Buzzy; 20th Sep 2004 at 02:31.