ANSETT....what made it a GREAT airline?
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Well Obie & Amos2 you've spurred me out of my lethargy, I wasn't even going to reply to TNO's last post as IMHO of him he obviously does not have the cerebral capacity to digest any facts regarding the demise of AN.
It is quite apparent from his posts that he is a "brown nose" and "sc
b lover" who hasn't moved on, I'm sure he still drives out to the SIM centre every Sunday and crys in the geraniums! 
hey Amos2 are you still residing downriver from my hometown?
It is quite apparent from his posts that he is a "brown nose" and "sc
b lover" who hasn't moved on, I'm sure he still drives out to the SIM centre every Sunday and crys in the geraniums! hey Amos2 are you still residing downriver from my hometown?
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Sunfish
I've not been a fan of QF in the past and certainly wouldn't set foot in an AN aircraft post 89 as a matter of principle, but I'm curious as to why they should be disemboweled
Apropos AN I had not travelled with them since before 89 when they were a top airline, but was required to by a clients contract commitments, very shortly before their demise.
To say I was shocked and dismayed at the comparison would be an understatement, it already had the smell of corporate death about it.
I've not been a fan of QF in the past and certainly wouldn't set foot in an AN aircraft post 89 as a matter of principle, but I'm curious as to why they should be disemboweled
Apropos AN I had not travelled with them since before 89 when they were a top airline, but was required to by a clients contract commitments, very shortly before their demise.
To say I was shocked and dismayed at the comparison would be an understatement, it already had the smell of corporate death about it.
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What ever happened to Captain Zero? Fondly remembered…
Perhaps someone might like to tell the story of how he got that name. (That lift was never quite the same for me after I heard the tale.)
“Press the zero! Press the zero!” Loved it.
Perhaps someone might like to tell the story of how he got that name. (That lift was never quite the same for me after I heard the tale.)
“Press the zero! Press the zero!” Loved it.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Well, TNO your post from a couple of pages back deserves a reply - another reply 
- not just for you, but for some posters who might need a slight refresher/intro as to what precipitated the events of 1989, and its monumental effect on Australia's airlines.
So allow me to start with a question or two, TNO.
During your time at Ansett, did you ever have a salary increase/decrease, or a change in your conditions of employment?
I'm certain that you would have had annual incrementals - plus, in your case, "shift allowances", extra loadings for working on week-ends, public holidays, "back-of-the=clock", overtime, etc, etc.
Of course you realise that in most of those situations (except back of the clock) pilots are NOT paid extra, don't you.
So WHO negotiated those contractual conditions for you, TNO - or was it a "non-negotiable.....take it, or leave it deal, as Abeles & Co threw at the pilot group in 1989, when they REFUSED to negotiate with the AFAP?
Have you never entered a negotiation - be it for your own work conditions, the sale of a car, house, or other property - not asking for MORE than you intend receiving at the closing of the deal?
The AFAP being the pilot appointed negotiators at ALL contract renewals for the preceding 30-40 years up until 1989.
You DO remember that, don't you TNO?
So moving on to your quip
...I'll happily provide you with an answer to that.
I suggest to you, that "another group of AN employees [that] that description could have been applied to (a bunch of greedy, self-serving b*****ds)" were the likes of YOU, TNO
Sorry old pal, but yes, YOU - who couldn't see past the end of your nose...in fact past your pay packet...as to exactly WHAT the 1989 Dispute was all about.
What is was NOT about, was the pilots trying to achieve a 29.47% pay rise!
It WAS about a group of employees insisting on their right to NOT be forced into a system whereby their employment conditions were run by the State - a facist type system.
That system - known then as "The Accord", was one which the AFAP had agreed the pilots would enter into, for a trial period, and on a voluntary basis. At the end of that period, the Federation had determined that it was detrimental to remain in The Accord, and wanted out.
Abeles, Murdoch, Hawke, Kelty. etc REFUSED us that "out".
You state, TNO, that the '89 pilots were being too greedy with their AMBIT (ambit = negotiable) claim, yet the book "Sky Pirates" written by a neutral observer, Brad Norrington, states that the salaries being offered in the scabs' contracts amounted to almost EXACTLY a 30% salary INCREASE for any Ansett/East-West/TAA/IPEC pilot who signed one.
Had the Dispute been about avarice of $$$'s alone, then the airlines would have been deluged with applications from the Federation pilots in September.
No, TNO, the "group of AN employees [that] that description could have been applied to" were those who didn't take heed of the AFAP's printed leaflets titled "Who will be next?" - the AN employees who saw the scab pilots as the saviours of THEIR jobs, and who happily - mindlessly......except for the thought of perhaps being forced to lose some $$$'s because of the Dispute.....trained the replacements/returnees up.
Short term gain for long term loss, TNO.
Because, TNO - whether you realise NOW, or you still don't - OUR fight then, was also YOUR fight!
It was a fight about stopping the GREED of The Fat Man - the greed that ultimately caused Ansett's demise.
Had there been a few more people who had been willing to look a little deeper into the ACTUAL principles of the Dispute, you - TNO - and others like you, might still have been working in Ansett today.
FYI, there were plenty within Ansett who supported us - who COULD see what was at stake for them....those who provided the names of the "returnees" and the new joiners, the sort who were typified by the guy who pushed a dinner plate under Captain "lightfingers" nose, with the word SCAB drawn in the mashed potato.
THOSE are the ex-AN employees for whom I really feel!
As an aside, it was noteworthy that during a "demonstration march" at BNE airport, we had a wharfie join us - a guy who could see how employees' rights were being threatened by greedy, facist type employers and a corrupt head of government.
Kind regards.
K.M.
- not just for you, but for some posters who might need a slight refresher/intro as to what precipitated the events of 1989, and its monumental effect on Australia's airlines.So allow me to start with a question or two, TNO.
During your time at Ansett, did you ever have a salary increase/decrease, or a change in your conditions of employment?
I'm certain that you would have had annual incrementals - plus, in your case, "shift allowances", extra loadings for working on week-ends, public holidays, "back-of-the=clock", overtime, etc, etc.
Of course you realise that in most of those situations (except back of the clock) pilots are NOT paid extra, don't you.
So WHO negotiated those contractual conditions for you, TNO - or was it a "non-negotiable.....take it, or leave it deal, as Abeles & Co threw at the pilot group in 1989, when they REFUSED to negotiate with the AFAP?
Have you never entered a negotiation - be it for your own work conditions, the sale of a car, house, or other property - not asking for MORE than you intend receiving at the closing of the deal?
The AFAP being the pilot appointed negotiators at ALL contract renewals for the preceding 30-40 years up until 1989.
You DO remember that, don't you TNO?
So moving on to your quip
....I wonder to which other group of AN employees could that description have been applied?
I suggest to you, that "another group of AN employees [that] that description could have been applied to (a bunch of greedy, self-serving b*****ds)" were the likes of YOU, TNO
Sorry old pal, but yes, YOU - who couldn't see past the end of your nose...in fact past your pay packet...as to exactly WHAT the 1989 Dispute was all about.
What is was NOT about, was the pilots trying to achieve a 29.47% pay rise!
It WAS about a group of employees insisting on their right to NOT be forced into a system whereby their employment conditions were run by the State - a facist type system.
That system - known then as "The Accord", was one which the AFAP had agreed the pilots would enter into, for a trial period, and on a voluntary basis. At the end of that period, the Federation had determined that it was detrimental to remain in The Accord, and wanted out.
Abeles, Murdoch, Hawke, Kelty. etc REFUSED us that "out".
You state, TNO, that the '89 pilots were being too greedy with their AMBIT (ambit = negotiable) claim, yet the book "Sky Pirates" written by a neutral observer, Brad Norrington, states that the salaries being offered in the scabs' contracts amounted to almost EXACTLY a 30% salary INCREASE for any Ansett/East-West/TAA/IPEC pilot who signed one.
Had the Dispute been about avarice of $$$'s alone, then the airlines would have been deluged with applications from the Federation pilots in September.
No, TNO, the "group of AN employees [that] that description could have been applied to" were those who didn't take heed of the AFAP's printed leaflets titled "Who will be next?" - the AN employees who saw the scab pilots as the saviours of THEIR jobs, and who happily - mindlessly......except for the thought of perhaps being forced to lose some $$$'s because of the Dispute.....trained the replacements/returnees up.
Short term gain for long term loss, TNO.
Because, TNO - whether you realise NOW, or you still don't - OUR fight then, was also YOUR fight!
It was a fight about stopping the GREED of The Fat Man - the greed that ultimately caused Ansett's demise.
Had there been a few more people who had been willing to look a little deeper into the ACTUAL principles of the Dispute, you - TNO - and others like you, might still have been working in Ansett today.
FYI, there were plenty within Ansett who supported us - who COULD see what was at stake for them....those who provided the names of the "returnees" and the new joiners, the sort who were typified by the guy who pushed a dinner plate under Captain "lightfingers" nose, with the word SCAB drawn in the mashed potato.
THOSE are the ex-AN employees for whom I really feel!
As an aside, it was noteworthy that during a "demonstration march" at BNE airport, we had a wharfie join us - a guy who could see how employees' rights were being threatened by greedy, facist type employers and a corrupt head of government.
Kind regards.
K.M.
Last edited by Kaptin M; 12th Sep 2004 at 00:17.
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Kap,
BRAVO! NOBODY could have said it better than that! I am speechless almost - that summed it all up EXACTLY.
Now, BRACE! BRACE! BRACE! You know that the scabs are going to rear their pointed heads again and try to bring you down into their quagmire of self wallow, pity, and shame.
Have any of you (non-returnees) ever walked through a terminal, seen a scab and actually had them come up to you and say g'day, or did they all just skulk off, pretending not to have seen you? Funny - all the ones I ever see simply skulk off. Still must be a damned big burden of SHAME.
I doubt one will have the courage to speak his TRUE feelings about the matter, well, at least without trying to denegrate Kap.
Let's see the true reason why some went back. Was it money? Did you think you couldn't get another job somewhere else? (I know quite a few returnees that wouldn't get a job elsewhere based on performance!) Did your wife make you do it because you couldn't afford repayments on her BMW? Or did you just want to stick it to your mates, have your cake, and eat theirs too?
I know this will probably get locked, but come on, let's see the TRUTH behind the defections.
BRAVO! NOBODY could have said it better than that! I am speechless almost - that summed it all up EXACTLY.
Now, BRACE! BRACE! BRACE! You know that the scabs are going to rear their pointed heads again and try to bring you down into their quagmire of self wallow, pity, and shame.
Have any of you (non-returnees) ever walked through a terminal, seen a scab and actually had them come up to you and say g'day, or did they all just skulk off, pretending not to have seen you? Funny - all the ones I ever see simply skulk off. Still must be a damned big burden of SHAME.
I doubt one will have the courage to speak his TRUE feelings about the matter, well, at least without trying to denegrate Kap.
Let's see the true reason why some went back. Was it money? Did you think you couldn't get another job somewhere else? (I know quite a few returnees that wouldn't get a job elsewhere based on performance!) Did your wife make you do it because you couldn't afford repayments on her BMW? Or did you just want to stick it to your mates, have your cake, and eat theirs too?
I know this will probably get locked, but come on, let's see the TRUTH behind the defections.
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Nice one KAP. We all know the real intent of your thread is to once again crap on about 89. I guess you're scarred for life. How sad to hang on to events of 15 years past. You assh*#es held the country to ransom and put a lot of businesses under. Many others lost everything as a result of your failed industrial action. A fact you fail to acknowledge in your swirl of self importance. Those people would like to have a chat with you about that up a dark alley. I've never heard such self righteous dribble perpetuated by a few pathetic individuals for so long. The rest of us are sick to death of hearing about it. Please get your therapy else where.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
I have replied to a couple of previous posters, A4G - it is NOT my intent to turn this thread into another 1989 one.
As for your offer to "have a chat with you about that up a dark alley."..........................how about you, and they, meet me somewhere out in the open, in the bright lights
btw, A4G, I see that BOTH of your posts have centred around the 1989 issue - therapy didn't go so well, eh?!!
As for your offer to "have a chat with you about that up a dark alley."..........................how about you, and they, meet me somewhere out in the open, in the bright lights
btw, A4G, I see that BOTH of your posts have centred around the 1989 issue - therapy didn't go so well, eh?!!
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I think we might all find that the owl won't be having much more to do with the prune forums since he's realised that he's been sprung as a psychopath!
He and Dickie make a great team of idiots don't they?
He and Dickie make a great team of idiots don't they?
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Finally!!!!!!!! After all this time!!!!! Kaptin M has named the beasts in the 1989 debacle, and bloody good on you for doing so.
It wasn't and never was the ones who went back that were the villians, not was it the ones who stayed out. It was Murdoch, Abeles and Hawke that pitted mate against mate.
When you look at it, a masterwork of psychological manipulation of a very intelligent and egotistical (yes you all are, otherwise you would not be where you are or were) group of people.
I now run a very profitable Travel Agency with excellent staff, drive the 20 year old sports car (of course it is a bloody z!) that I always wanted, but would trade it all if someone could give me my mighty little airline back.
It aint going to happen though.
We are hopefully moving beyond 1989, because God knows, we have more than enough hurdles being placed in front of us in the current climate.
Now, we need each other more than ever.
Best regards
EWL
It wasn't and never was the ones who went back that were the villians, not was it the ones who stayed out. It was Murdoch, Abeles and Hawke that pitted mate against mate.
When you look at it, a masterwork of psychological manipulation of a very intelligent and egotistical (yes you all are, otherwise you would not be where you are or were) group of people.
I now run a very profitable Travel Agency with excellent staff, drive the 20 year old sports car (of course it is a bloody z!) that I always wanted, but would trade it all if someone could give me my mighty little airline back.
It aint going to happen though.
We are hopefully moving beyond 1989, because God knows, we have more than enough hurdles being placed in front of us in the current climate.
Now, we need each other more than ever.
Best regards
EWL
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During my time in Ansett,we trusted each other and had respect for management.We had pride in ourselves and each other and this showed in our work
I crewed DC 6,DC3,F27,Viscount 700 & 800,L188,B727,&DC9.All crew were friendly and came to work with a smile.
We trusted that management would listen to our grievences,bargin hard,and at the end of the day ,have a beer with us and get ready for the next day,regardless of who won.
Imho ,should a similar thing to 1989 have happened in Reg's Ansett, the scabs would have been kicked out.Reg and the old Ansett was built on integrity.
Smile
I crewed DC 6,DC3,F27,Viscount 700 & 800,L188,B727,&DC9.All crew were friendly and came to work with a smile.
We trusted that management would listen to our grievences,bargin hard,and at the end of the day ,have a beer with us and get ready for the next day,regardless of who won.
Imho ,should a similar thing to 1989 have happened in Reg's Ansett, the scabs would have been kicked out.Reg and the old Ansett was built on integrity.
Smile
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I've never heard such self righteous dribble perpetuated by a few pathetic individuals for so long. The rest of us are sick to death of hearing about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A4G,
Your "few pathetic individuals" = 80% of the pilots in 1989
Your "rest of us" = <20% of the pilots in 1989
YOU were the ones who were out of step, son. YOU were the ones who helped the fat man and his little mate to rape and plunder an airline. It's little wonder that you are indeed "sick to death of hearing about it."
I've never heard such self righteous dribble perpetuated by a few pathetic individuals for so long. The rest of us are sick to death of hearing about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A4G,
Your "few pathetic individuals" = 80% of the pilots in 1989
Your "rest of us" = <20% of the pilots in 1989
YOU were the ones who were out of step, son. YOU were the ones who helped the fat man and his little mate to rape and plunder an airline. It's little wonder that you are indeed "sick to death of hearing about it."
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Casper: I had nothing to do with 89 whatsoever. How you came to that conclusion is beyond me? I objected to Kap starting a thread about AN when anyone who reads his dribble knows he just wanted to continue his vent about 89. The few I was referring to were those who continue to hijack threads and post here about their failed industrial action. We all agree who's at fault so why do we have to keep hearing it? As far as I'm concerned "Sky Pirates" was an appropriate title for their action. If you know anything at all about Australian industrial history then you will have heard of the "Prices and Incomes Accord" This was in place at the time and the AFAP ran straight into it at MMO. Their timing was as off as Mike Tysons.
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So, should we start with the story of Maurie cleaning the windscreen of the F27 in Alice Springs back in 72, or there abouts, or should we move onto the DC9 diversion between Sy/Ml in 76, or there abouts?
This is well before the idiot owls time , of course!
This is well before the idiot owls time , of course!