Who can we blame when Avgas runs out?
Thread Starter
My apologies to all for the delay in responding.
Obiwan: my thanks for all those links. Some extraordinarily useful information.
OzExpat raised an issue which I hadn’t considered: the demand side rather than just the supply side. As Australia and other countries changes to turbine and, to a lesser extent (so far) diesel, engines, the demand and consumption for Avgas will decline, irrespective of the various factors which determine the cost of supply. Even if we assume that there is an endless supply of Avgas, the diminishing demand will mean that the cost of supply will have to be distributed across a diminishing number of litres sold, thus increasing the price.
Flichik (uncharacteristically) asked a good question: why can’t the standard GA-certified engines be modified so that they can run on unleaded. That would be a short-term solution. Any engine LAMEs out there care to shed light on this one? My limited understanding is that the materials and specs of some engines are such that they can never run on ULP.
Bob Murphie: wouldn’t it be great if we could manufacture an engine that ran on ethanol produced by our ailing sugar industry? Dick Smith: where are when we need you?
Tinpis: you ask for the date and time when the supply of oil will run out. I can’t tell you that. Can you tell me the date and time of your death? Notwithstanding the fact that you can’t tell me the date and time of your death, you will surely die, and notwithstanding the fact that I can’t tell you the date and time when the supply of oil will run out, it will surely run out. What’s your point?
Ultralights: some fantastic, low consumption technology. I understand that the Jabiru engines are getting good press OS. Let’s hope it continues and expands.
Obiwan: my thanks for all those links. Some extraordinarily useful information.
OzExpat raised an issue which I hadn’t considered: the demand side rather than just the supply side. As Australia and other countries changes to turbine and, to a lesser extent (so far) diesel, engines, the demand and consumption for Avgas will decline, irrespective of the various factors which determine the cost of supply. Even if we assume that there is an endless supply of Avgas, the diminishing demand will mean that the cost of supply will have to be distributed across a diminishing number of litres sold, thus increasing the price.
Flichik (uncharacteristically) asked a good question: why can’t the standard GA-certified engines be modified so that they can run on unleaded. That would be a short-term solution. Any engine LAMEs out there care to shed light on this one? My limited understanding is that the materials and specs of some engines are such that they can never run on ULP.
Bob Murphie: wouldn’t it be great if we could manufacture an engine that ran on ethanol produced by our ailing sugar industry? Dick Smith: where are when we need you?
Tinpis: you ask for the date and time when the supply of oil will run out. I can’t tell you that. Can you tell me the date and time of your death? Notwithstanding the fact that you can’t tell me the date and time of your death, you will surely die, and notwithstanding the fact that I can’t tell you the date and time when the supply of oil will run out, it will surely run out. What’s your point?
Ultralights: some fantastic, low consumption technology. I understand that the Jabiru engines are getting good press OS. Let’s hope it continues and expands.
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creampuff
One of the links I found had some stuff about changing to unleaded.
A variety of organizations, from oil companies to the FAA, are trying to find a lead-free substitute for 100 low-lead (100LL),but so far nothing viable has appeared. Proposed formulations often are more toxic than TEL, don't meet specifications and are expensive. Engine alterations may offer some relief, but this is far from certain.
Before my time but I understand similar pains were experienced in the change from 100/130 to 100LL?
Flichik (uncharacteristically) asked a good question: why can’t the standard GA-certified engines be modified so that they can run on unleaded.
A variety of organizations, from oil companies to the FAA, are trying to find a lead-free substitute for 100 low-lead (100LL),but so far nothing viable has appeared. Proposed formulations often are more toxic than TEL, don't meet specifications and are expensive. Engine alterations may offer some relief, but this is far from certain.
Before my time but I understand similar pains were experienced in the change from 100/130 to 100LL?
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Indeed I will surely die,a biological fact.
Where is your evidence that oil will run out?
It may well be that it becomes quite expensive to recover(ie expensive Quixotic military forays for one) and quite possibly fuel will be reserved in some part for aviation use until a CHEAPER fuel supply can be found(fuel cells?)
Motoring I believe will change in the next decade with more and more hybrid autos coming onto the market at affordable prices.
I believe most oil used in the UK is for home heating correct me if I am wrong, I would suspect a similar situation in Europe.
Where is your evidence that oil will run out?
It may well be that it becomes quite expensive to recover(ie expensive Quixotic military forays for one) and quite possibly fuel will be reserved in some part for aviation use until a CHEAPER fuel supply can be found(fuel cells?)
Motoring I believe will change in the next decade with more and more hybrid autos coming onto the market at affordable prices.
I believe most oil used in the UK is for home heating correct me if I am wrong, I would suspect a similar situation in Europe.
G'DayUltralight Mate, my point exactly. The Jab as a 100% home grown product is an excellent example. Nearly all the yank tank designs as Gaunty put it on a post ages ago, are safe and easy enough that even your ailing grandmother could fly them without many hiccups. Not to say that most all the current designs and the Jab is included here are VERY safe.
As my economist-in-training brother used to put it. "If the average fuel consumption of the nations fleet is improved, it will increase the expected life of any oil reserve proportionatly"
With regard to the Jabs engine, when you look at the capacity of the engine at 2.2Litres I fear that the designers are trying to get too much torque at lower revs. I would be interested to see what the outcome would be if the revs were increased to 3 to 3500 rpm and gear the prop back to 2000rpm. I wonder if this would improve reliability. It would certainly help the power output
With regard to the arrow- I do not wish to advertise, I am no way involved with this mob , but I do wish to own one ,one day
www.tomair.com.au
PS creamy have I upset you in some way, I have already broached some of these subjects that you credit other posters with...If I have, I am sorry mate
Regards
Mark
As my economist-in-training brother used to put it. "If the average fuel consumption of the nations fleet is improved, it will increase the expected life of any oil reserve proportionatly"
With regard to the Jabs engine, when you look at the capacity of the engine at 2.2Litres I fear that the designers are trying to get too much torque at lower revs. I would be interested to see what the outcome would be if the revs were increased to 3 to 3500 rpm and gear the prop back to 2000rpm. I wonder if this would improve reliability. It would certainly help the power output
With regard to the arrow- I do not wish to advertise, I am no way involved with this mob , but I do wish to own one ,one day
www.tomair.com.au
PS creamy have I upset you in some way, I have already broached some of these subjects that you credit other posters with...If I have, I am sorry mate
Regards
Mark
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Apparently the supply of Avgas has run out already, at BN that is. I was there today and could not by a single litre of it. One company competly out and the other with only enough to supply its regular customers for who knows how long.
Pretty good for a major airport.........NOT!
Pretty good for a major airport.........NOT!
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With regard to the Jabs engine, when you look at the capacity of the engine at 2.2Litres I fear that the designers are trying to get too much torque at lower revs. I would be interested to see what the outcome would be if the revs were increased to 3 to 3500 rpm and gear the prop back to 2000rpm. I wonder if this would improve reliability. It would certainly help the power output
the 2800 cruise in my Joey produces 155Kts cruise, 2650 gives 145 kts at a Fuel flow of 11L per hour!
2800 in the Jabiru gives 95Kts
this alone proves that ever increasing peformance in airframe and wing design will also go a long way in improving fuel economy. I am quite certain that the removal of parasite drag of thousands of rivets alone will provide substantial increases in cruise performance and fuel economy.
I have looked at the Cobra arrow, but i found them a little expensive for their performance, and i prefer a kit that required a little more work on my part. they are a great design and easy to build, but i liked the ability to make small improvements to all parts of my aircraft, that why i settled on the Joey, Timber and composite kit.
ultralights mate, I stand corrected. I will have to learn more about the Jab motors and not listen to other peoples theories
Your choice of the Joey is what I think makes RAA so vibrant. The choice is there to do exactly what you feel you want to do. I have a friend in YMIA who has a Sonerai with a home turboed 912. I have yet to see it . It easily cruises in excess of 160kts. He also owns a Skyfox so am very envious.
Sorry to hijack thread. Just a question toTheChef. Are you talking about the GA terminal at YBBN?
Your choice of the Joey is what I think makes RAA so vibrant. The choice is there to do exactly what you feel you want to do. I have a friend in YMIA who has a Sonerai with a home turboed 912. I have yet to see it . It easily cruises in excess of 160kts. He also owns a Skyfox so am very envious.
Sorry to hijack thread. Just a question toTheChef. Are you talking about the GA terminal at YBBN?
Thread Starter
I owe two apologies
OZBUSDRIVER - I should have acknowledged the very useful points you had made. I'm afraid my only excuse would sound like 'the dog ate my homework'. I just stuffed up!
tinpis - your point is devastatingly valid, and my point was invalid, and embarrassingly so, given how dogmatically I made it. As you say, if a change is made to alternatives before all the oil runs out, it will indeed never run out - we won't be using it. Sounds like BN needs some alternativs already!
OZBUSDRIVER - I should have acknowledged the very useful points you had made. I'm afraid my only excuse would sound like 'the dog ate my homework'. I just stuffed up!
tinpis - your point is devastatingly valid, and my point was invalid, and embarrassingly so, given how dogmatically I made it. As you say, if a change is made to alternatives before all the oil runs out, it will indeed never run out - we won't be using it. Sounds like BN needs some alternativs already!
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The GA it was at BN (not sure where else needs Avgas at BN). As there is not yet a shortage, one must wonder why fuel companys cant get their $h!t sorted so that there is always fuel available at major airports - especially for the price we pay for it these days.
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A friend drives a turbo diesel Citreon its as quiet and smooth as glass and sips fuel.
I have thought these engines would be useful in any class of light aircraft and of course they will run on avtur.
Does anyone know what the limitations maybe on these engines ? For instance weight, flight at altitude?
I would think a diesel would be much easier to prepare for aircraft use than a petrol auto engine.
Lawyers of course would be poised.
I have thought these engines would be useful in any class of light aircraft and of course they will run on avtur.
Does anyone know what the limitations maybe on these engines ? For instance weight, flight at altitude?
I would think a diesel would be much easier to prepare for aircraft use than a petrol auto engine.
Lawyers of course would be poised.
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Remarkable what you find on google 
On August 16th, 2004 remarkably, the twin diesel engine DA42 Twin Star was flown from London, Ontario, Canada to Porto, Portugal, Europe with only one stop, in St. John's Newfoundland, Canada.
The leg from London to St.John's (1,300 nm / 2,407 km), took 7 ½ hrs. The trans atlantic leg of (1,900 nm / 3,518 km), from St.John's to Porto Portugal, was completed in 12 ½ hrs.
Had it not been for adverse weather conditions in Europe, the remaining 5 hrs of fuel upon landing in Porto would have been sufficient to reach Guillaumaud's planned destination of Toulouse, France, a planned non stop distance of over (2,500 nm / 4,630 km). Average combined fuel burn for the crossing, flown at 11,000 ft (3,353 m), was an incredible 5.74 gph /22 l (2.87 gph / 11 l per engine)! Guillaumaud set engine power at a fuel conserving 42% and achieved an average ground speed of 152 kts (281.5 km/h).
The total amount of Jet fuel consumed for the crossing, 72 gallons (272 l) cost less than US$ 200! The point to point travel time was considerably faster than any available commercial flight combination, illustrating the Diamond Star's practicality as a personal or business transportation alternative.
This flight represents the first non-stop transatlantic crossing by a diesel engine powered aircraft in general aviation and underlines the efficiency and reliability of the DA42 Twin Star TDI.
Had it not been for adverse weather conditions in Europe, the remaining 5 hrs of fuel upon landing in Porto .....
http://www.diamond-air.at/en/products/DA42/index.htm[
On August 16th, 2004 remarkably, the twin diesel engine DA42 Twin Star was flown from London, Ontario, Canada to Porto, Portugal, Europe with only one stop, in St. John's Newfoundland, Canada.
The leg from London to St.John's (1,300 nm / 2,407 km), took 7 ½ hrs. The trans atlantic leg of (1,900 nm / 3,518 km), from St.John's to Porto Portugal, was completed in 12 ½ hrs.
Had it not been for adverse weather conditions in Europe, the remaining 5 hrs of fuel upon landing in Porto would have been sufficient to reach Guillaumaud's planned destination of Toulouse, France, a planned non stop distance of over (2,500 nm / 4,630 km). Average combined fuel burn for the crossing, flown at 11,000 ft (3,353 m), was an incredible 5.74 gph /22 l (2.87 gph / 11 l per engine)! Guillaumaud set engine power at a fuel conserving 42% and achieved an average ground speed of 152 kts (281.5 km/h).
The total amount of Jet fuel consumed for the crossing, 72 gallons (272 l) cost less than US$ 200! The point to point travel time was considerably faster than any available commercial flight combination, illustrating the Diamond Star's practicality as a personal or business transportation alternative.
This flight represents the first non-stop transatlantic crossing by a diesel engine powered aircraft in general aviation and underlines the efficiency and reliability of the DA42 Twin Star TDI.
Had it not been for adverse weather conditions in Europe, the remaining 5 hrs of fuel upon landing in Porto .....
http://www.diamond-air.at/en/products/DA42/index.htm[
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Great news! i just dont want to wait the 5 or 10 yrs before diesel powered composite aircraft become the norm for GA in Oz!
I wonder how long before Piper/cessna and other see the light and begin work on their own Modern aircraft?
I wonder how long before Piper/cessna and other see the light and begin work on their own Modern aircraft?
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Ultralights
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting, this particular part of the GA scene now belongs to the DA's of this world.
What a fantastic acheivement, the only reason I didn't buy a new diesel motor car just recently instead of a petrol turbo is that for reasons I don't understand Oz decided to go with the US diesel standard which is yonks behind the european one where the huge advances in diesel power are being made.
It is changing and when we get Euro standard lo sulfur diesel available goodbye petrol cars.
The gaunty women are off to drive around Europe soon for a couple of months and have done the new car lease routine with one of the "new" diesel Peugeots, I look forward to their report.
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting, this particular part of the GA scene now belongs to the DA's of this world.
What a fantastic acheivement, the only reason I didn't buy a new diesel motor car just recently instead of a petrol turbo is that for reasons I don't understand Oz decided to go with the US diesel standard which is yonks behind the european one where the huge advances in diesel power are being made.
It is changing and when we get Euro standard lo sulfur diesel available goodbye petrol cars.
The gaunty women are off to drive around Europe soon for a couple of months and have done the new car lease routine with one of the "new" diesel Peugeots, I look forward to their report.
Superior 0-320 & 0-360 ULP Engines
In Experimental Category, these may be part of the answer to availability of avgas.
There's about a 30% saving per litre as well.
happy days,
In Experimental Category, these may be part of the answer to availability of avgas.
There's about a 30% saving per litre as well.
happy days,
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Didn't phase cars when unleaded came in. Why can't the Lyco or Contis be redesigned to run on unleaded???
Thread Starter
MLS-12D
Thanks
I'd be surprised if it's just a paperwork exercise.
Whatever the case, what's the approx cost (in $US) of the STC for, say, an average 180hp injected Lyc/Conti?
Thanks
I'd be surprised if it's just a paperwork exercise.
Whatever the case, what's the approx cost (in $US) of the STC for, say, an average 180hp injected Lyc/Conti?
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What a fantastic acheivement, the only reason I didn't buy a new diesel motor car just recently instead of a petrol turbo is that for reasons I don't understand Oz decided to go with the US diesel standard which is yonks behind the european one where the huge advances in diesel power are being made .
I know they seem to get fantastic economy from the little turbos, they wont run as well here?
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I own and operate a transport company, running 2 tonne trucks, all deisels of course! Diesel engines are very picky when it comes to fuel quality. a diesel will run perfectly well on any quality, only the amount of soot, and economy is effected,
the newest 2.5 tonne Hino, 4.5 ltr CDI diesel usually gets around 1000Km a tank from 70 lts on a good quality fuel, (usually BP low sulphur) but a load of bad diesel will see no change in performance, only you will get about 5-600 Km from that tank of fuel. and a lot more soot.
basically the fuel quality we get here is the dregs of the world, Premium ULP is the Standard in Japan and the EU, here its an over priced up market fuel. (hence most, if not all European iport cars require Premium ULP Minimum)
the EU standard of fuels, especially diesel is much higher than ours, mainly for environmental concerns, and laws requiring their fuel to be efficient and environmentally friendly (as a fossil fuel can get)
the newest 2.5 tonne Hino, 4.5 ltr CDI diesel usually gets around 1000Km a tank from 70 lts on a good quality fuel, (usually BP low sulphur) but a load of bad diesel will see no change in performance, only you will get about 5-600 Km from that tank of fuel. and a lot more soot.
basically the fuel quality we get here is the dregs of the world, Premium ULP is the Standard in Japan and the EU, here its an over priced up market fuel. (hence most, if not all European iport cars require Premium ULP Minimum)
the EU standard of fuels, especially diesel is much higher than ours, mainly for environmental concerns, and laws requiring their fuel to be efficient and environmentally friendly (as a fossil fuel can get)
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Oil Will run out?
I suspect no-one's looking at this thread any more but wanted to offer up what my experience has lead me to believe. (4 years in offshore oil and gas).
The techniques for finding and extracting oil are improving at an incredible rate. Fields that would have been completely unviable 10 years ago are now turning a fine profit, even in the North Sea. The middle east has an unimaginable quantity of oil left. I've seen it! The problem is that if we use all the oil we have available to us we may well wreck the atmosphere. I say that as a man who loves flying and hopes for a long career as a pilot
Cleaner power sources are emerging although consideable time will be required before they can meet most needs, however i firmly believe that as the bronze age did not end for a lack of bronze neither will our oil age end for a lack of oil.
The techniques for finding and extracting oil are improving at an incredible rate. Fields that would have been completely unviable 10 years ago are now turning a fine profit, even in the North Sea. The middle east has an unimaginable quantity of oil left. I've seen it! The problem is that if we use all the oil we have available to us we may well wreck the atmosphere. I say that as a man who loves flying and hopes for a long career as a pilot
Cleaner power sources are emerging although consideable time will be required before they can meet most needs, however i firmly believe that as the bronze age did not end for a lack of bronze neither will our oil age end for a lack of oil.