Night VFR multi?
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Night VFR multi?
G'day
I completed my night vfr rating a few years ago long before flying a twin. Therefore on my licence the nvfr has the restriction of SEACO (single engine aircraft only).
However since then i've completed the initial multi endorsement and M/E CIR. Also during one of the ifr recency flights (done at night) I did 4 night circuits in the twin. Does this mean that the NVFR rating is current with multi-engine aircraft, keeping in mind that the licence still states that I can only fly NVFR in singles?
If not, what would I need to do to fly a twin under NVFR?
Thanks in advance for any replys.
I completed my night vfr rating a few years ago long before flying a twin. Therefore on my licence the nvfr has the restriction of SEACO (single engine aircraft only).
However since then i've completed the initial multi endorsement and M/E CIR. Also during one of the ifr recency flights (done at night) I did 4 night circuits in the twin. Does this mean that the NVFR rating is current with multi-engine aircraft, keeping in mind that the licence still states that I can only fly NVFR in singles?
If not, what would I need to do to fly a twin under NVFR?
Thanks in advance for any replys.
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If you want the M/E NVFR rating you have to do the NVFR flight test again in the twin.
This is because you have to be able to demonstrate to the ATO your ability to identify and control the a/c under asymmetric conditions at night.
I think (though I'm not sure) you are also required to have at least 5 hours on type before you can do the test. I don't think the 5 hours need to be night hours. Though I note that it is a requirement for IFR to have 5 hours night.
This is because you have to be able to demonstrate to the ATO your ability to identify and control the a/c under asymmetric conditions at night.
I think (though I'm not sure) you are also required to have at least 5 hours on type before you can do the test. I don't think the 5 hours need to be night hours. Though I note that it is a requirement for IFR to have 5 hours night.
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NAMPS, I disagree with your post. I have exactly the same credentials as Navajo King and my IFR ATO told me that I could operate NVFR under the IFR. Meaning that I could fly NVFR provided my intrument rating was current and I had 3 t/o and LDG's at night.
I've had extensive 'chin wags' with casa about Day/Night IFR to be told that all I/R's cover you for day and night ops. I also got told the paragraph that says 'day only instrument ratings' can only be issued to people who's licence is restricted to day (ie colour blindness) so confirming night is ok.
I've had extensive 'chin wags' with casa about Day/Night IFR to be told that all I/R's cover you for day and night ops. I also got told the paragraph that says 'day only instrument ratings' can only be issued to people who's licence is restricted to day (ie colour blindness) so confirming night is ok.
Sorry NAMPS, I also disagree.
CAO 40.2.1.14
14 FLIGHT BY NIGHT UNDER NIGHT V.F.R. PROCEDURES
14.1 A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in command, or co-pilot, using the navigation aids endorsed in the holder’s personal log book in the following circumstances:
(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.
(b) Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) Aeronautical Experience. The pilot’s aeronautical experience shall include 10 hours cross country flight time using night V.F.R. procedures including a minimum of two navigation exercises (of at least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure and shall provide at least one landing at an aerodrome other than that of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground lighting.
(ii) Recent Experience. The pilot’s recent experience shall include three take-offs and landings by night within the preceding 90 days, and either a night cross country flight (of at least 100 nautical miles or 1 hour duration) within the preceding six months or a flight check by night with an approved person also within the preceding six months.
14.2 The holder of a co-pilot instrument rating may act as co-pilot on flights by night under V.F.R. procedures, and exercise the privileges of a night V.F.R. endorsement provided the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to the type of operation and class of rating are satisfied.
In essence, provided you have a ME-CIR and satisfy the recency requirements above, you can operate a ME aircraft at night under NVFR procedures. So Navajo King, you're right to go!!
CAO 40.2.1.14
14 FLIGHT BY NIGHT UNDER NIGHT V.F.R. PROCEDURES
14.1 A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in command, or co-pilot, using the navigation aids endorsed in the holder’s personal log book in the following circumstances:
(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.
(b) Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) Aeronautical Experience. The pilot’s aeronautical experience shall include 10 hours cross country flight time using night V.F.R. procedures including a minimum of two navigation exercises (of at least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure and shall provide at least one landing at an aerodrome other than that of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground lighting.
(ii) Recent Experience. The pilot’s recent experience shall include three take-offs and landings by night within the preceding 90 days, and either a night cross country flight (of at least 100 nautical miles or 1 hour duration) within the preceding six months or a flight check by night with an approved person also within the preceding six months.
14.2 The holder of a co-pilot instrument rating may act as co-pilot on flights by night under V.F.R. procedures, and exercise the privileges of a night V.F.R. endorsement provided the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to the type of operation and class of rating are satisfied.
In essence, provided you have a ME-CIR and satisfy the recency requirements above, you can operate a ME aircraft at night under NVFR procedures. So Navajo King, you're right to go!!
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Also, there is no requirement to have a NVFR anyway.
Only requirement is 5hours NGT command prior to test.
Some operators get there students to do 5 hours solo NGT circuits to cover this.
Only requirement is 5hours NGT command prior to test.
Some operators get there students to do 5 hours solo NGT circuits to cover this.
Navajo King,
I understand some employers will require you to have a ME-NVFR for insurance purposes or contractual reasons (esp. mining contracts).
If this was a requirement for employment for the reasons stated above and I had Chief Nothingburger or DirectAnywhere try and argue with me that they did not need it to do the flight legally as they had a ME-CIR, *CLICK* hang up, and get someone who meets your requirements. Get my drift, employers will use anything to cull the pack.
Your best bet is to call 131-757, get put though to Brisbane office, tell them you have a NVFR(SEACO), and a ME-CIR, could they lift the SEACO restriction. I know of a few people who had the restriction lifted and new licence sent in the mail, no flight test.
If you don’t decide to do this, rather the flight test way, make sure you don’t get ripped off, you do not need to do the full flight NVFR test, all you will need to do is items 23, 24, 25 and 31 of the flight test form. There is a specific procedure in the delegates handbook for lifting the restriction, it DOES NOT involve the full test. Anyone saying you do, is trying to rip you off.
23 Level turn through 180 degrees, altitude + or - 200'
24 Safe execution of climbing and descending turns to a specified altitude
25 Safe technique and smooth recovery from UAs
31 Multi-engine aircraft - asymmetric or reduced power cruising flight
This is the exact requirements from the delegates handbook...page 8-3 (my bolding)
Removal of Single Engine Aeroplane Restriction (Multi-engine Upgrade)
The removal of single engine aeroplanes limitation from the night VFR rating requires a test to be conducted and include items 23, 24, 25 and 31 of the flight test form. The test may be conducted at night or under simulated instrument flight conditions.
P.S. if you have a NVFR there is no additional hour requirement prior to sitting the test, the 5 hrs night command is to get an unrestricted CIR (ie not restricted to DAY ONLY).
I understand some employers will require you to have a ME-NVFR for insurance purposes or contractual reasons (esp. mining contracts).
If this was a requirement for employment for the reasons stated above and I had Chief Nothingburger or DirectAnywhere try and argue with me that they did not need it to do the flight legally as they had a ME-CIR, *CLICK* hang up, and get someone who meets your requirements. Get my drift, employers will use anything to cull the pack.
Your best bet is to call 131-757, get put though to Brisbane office, tell them you have a NVFR(SEACO), and a ME-CIR, could they lift the SEACO restriction. I know of a few people who had the restriction lifted and new licence sent in the mail, no flight test.
If you don’t decide to do this, rather the flight test way, make sure you don’t get ripped off, you do not need to do the full flight NVFR test, all you will need to do is items 23, 24, 25 and 31 of the flight test form. There is a specific procedure in the delegates handbook for lifting the restriction, it DOES NOT involve the full test. Anyone saying you do, is trying to rip you off.
23 Level turn through 180 degrees, altitude + or - 200'
24 Safe execution of climbing and descending turns to a specified altitude
25 Safe technique and smooth recovery from UAs
31 Multi-engine aircraft - asymmetric or reduced power cruising flight
This is the exact requirements from the delegates handbook...page 8-3 (my bolding)
Removal of Single Engine Aeroplane Restriction (Multi-engine Upgrade)
The removal of single engine aeroplanes limitation from the night VFR rating requires a test to be conducted and include items 23, 24, 25 and 31 of the flight test form. The test may be conducted at night or under simulated instrument flight conditions.
P.S. if you have a NVFR there is no additional hour requirement prior to sitting the test, the 5 hrs night command is to get an unrestricted CIR (ie not restricted to DAY ONLY).
OK, point taken SWH, but based on the question asked by NK, he (I presume by the King bit) has to do legally absolutely nothing to fly a ME A/C under the NVFR.
Provided it's not for an employer or contractor who requires a NVFR multi, save the money! Why make things more complex than they need to be?
Provided it's not for an employer or contractor who requires a NVFR multi, save the money! Why make things more complex than they need to be?
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Sorry guys, maybe I was reading too much into the question.
swh has raised (eloquently) the matters that I had in mind when I posted.
There is certainly nothing stopping someone from flying a multi engine a/c under the NVFR with a current MECIR (that satisfies the night requirements), eventhough they may only have a NVFR rating that is restricted to S/E A/C.
As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, if that person flys a multi at night, the privileges exercised is that of the MECIR, not the NVFR rating.
I draw this distinction because a NVFR rating is perpetual (but subject to recency requirements). If a CIR (and you don't have a PIFR) is not renewed and you do not have a NVFR rating, you cannot fly at night full stop.
swh has raised (eloquently) the matters that I had in mind when I posted.
There is certainly nothing stopping someone from flying a multi engine a/c under the NVFR with a current MECIR (that satisfies the night requirements), eventhough they may only have a NVFR rating that is restricted to S/E A/C.
As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, if that person flys a multi at night, the privileges exercised is that of the MECIR, not the NVFR rating.
I draw this distinction because a NVFR rating is perpetual (but subject to recency requirements). If a CIR (and you don't have a PIFR) is not renewed and you do not have a NVFR rating, you cannot fly at night full stop.
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Category vs Procedure
In essence, provided you have a ME-CIR and satisfy the recency requirements above, you can operate a ME aircraft at night under NVFR procedures.
One must be careful to draw a distincting between the definitions of "IFR or NVFR Category" and "IFR or NVFR Procedure", before deciding which regulations are applicable.
Usually, the term "procedure" is subservient to the higher level term "category" eg if you are flying IFR category within the range of navaids you are also flying IFR "procedure". If you are flying clear of cloud outside of the range of navaids, then you are flying IFR category operating on VFR/NVFR "procedures". If you are a PPL and you only hold a day VFR rating, you can only file a flight plan as VFR "category" flying VFR "procedures".
So, armed with this understanding:
(A) If one wanted to fly at night from say Bankstown to a destination aerodrome with no navaids, the pilot could fly the last route segment NVFR PROCEDURE in a twin if the FPL has been submitted as IFR CATEGORY and the pilot holds a MECIR. The fact that the pilot may only hold a SE NVFR rating is operationally irrelevant under this scenario as he is authorised to fly the NVFR procedure under regulations applicable to IFR CATEGORY. However:
(B) if the same pilot wanted to take some friends up in a twin on a night scenic flight around Sydney Harbour , but didn't want to go to the hassle of filing an IFR CATEGORY flight plan (ie operating NVFR CATEGORY on a Sartime) then he would need to hold a ME NVFR rating to allow him to fly under NVFR category and procedures (ridiculous I know). The fact that the pilot may also hold a MECIR or a SE NVFR rating doesn't count in this flight planning instance.
If SWH is correct, then I would suggest getting the SEACO restriction lifted is the most appropriate path to go and gives one more flight planning options.
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Thanks everyone for your replys.
Can't believe how confusing this small issue can be!
I think i'll try calling casa and get the s/e restriction taken off the licence. Hopefully it won't be too difficult and I'm too poor to pay for more training in multi's at the moment.
Happy flying
Can't believe how confusing this small issue can be!
I think i'll try calling casa and get the s/e restriction taken off the licence. Hopefully it won't be too difficult and I'm too poor to pay for more training in multi's at the moment.
Happy flying
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SWH, Once again your advice is spot on. I rang up the Brisbane office and spent 2 minutes talking to Margaret in licencing. She said sure no problems 
I'll send an updated licence to you immeditaley!
Excellent.
I'll send an updated licence to you immeditaley! Excellent.
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y ?
I maybe stating the obvious? .... but here goes..
If you qualify for a ME-NVFR by having the relevant IFR & SE-NVFR rating..... why does CASA just not realise this and reissue a licence automatically.. ?
defiant.
If you qualify for a ME-NVFR by having the relevant IFR & SE-NVFR rating..... why does CASA just not realise this and reissue a licence automatically.. ?
defiant.
Sometimes they automatically remove the SEAO limitation. Or used to. They did for me 15 yrs ago.
Anyway, if you have SE NVFR and a ME IR then you can operate ME NVFR if you meet the recency/currency requirements.
If you don't have NVFR but have a ME IR then you can operate ME NVFR if you meet the recency/currency AND minimum experience requirements.
Anyway, if you have SE NVFR and a ME IR then you can operate ME NVFR if you meet the recency/currency requirements.
If you don't have NVFR but have a ME IR then you can operate ME NVFR if you meet the recency/currency AND minimum experience requirements.
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Tinstaafl:
I acknowledge that I am no expert when it comes to civil aviation regulations however, with all due respect to Tinstaafl, I don't think his response is as simple as he makes out, nor is it correct under all circumstances. But, hey, I've been wrong before, so beat me up if I am, as always I'm willing to learn.
This is my understanding/interpretation of the applicable regs:
What category of flight plan you wish to submit will determine the ratings you must hold in order to conduct that flight. If you want to file a flight plan in the IFR CATEGORY, then you must hold (for twins) a ME CIR rating. If you want to file as NVFR CATEGORY then you must hold a ME NVFR rating.
If you have a ME CIR and have filed an IFR category flight plan then Tinstaafl is correct you can operate ME NVFR procedures (even if you only hold a SE NVFR rating), provided you meet the NVFR currency/recency/experience requirements.
However, just because a pilot has MECIR rating (which authorises him to conduct a multi-engine flight under NVFR PROCEDURES) does not automatically imply that he can then jump into a twin and conduct a night flight under a NVFR CATEGORY flight plan, or on a no-plan basis. For this he needs a ME NVFR rating.
If a pilot only held a MECIR and a SE NVFR rating, he would be forced to file an IFR flight plan, even if he only wanted to take a twin up just for a PVT local night scenic flight within 5nm radius of the departure aerodrome with his friends, in order to give him the legal authority to conduct a ME flight under NVFR PROCEDURES. This is hardly a practical or workable option given that (in Australia) you will have to interact with ATC because of your IFR status - and this will cost you!
This is where swh's previous advice re applying for the lifting of the SE restriction on your NVFR rating makes such good sense as it gives the pilot the legal flexibility of either flying ME NVFR procedures under an IFR category flight plan or flying ME NVFR procedures under a NVFR category flight plan.
...if you have SE NVFR and a ME IR then you can operate ME NVFR if you meet the recency/currency requirements. If you don't have NVFR but have a ME IR then you can operate ME NVFR if you meet the recency/currency AND minimum experience requirements
This is my understanding/interpretation of the applicable regs:
What category of flight plan you wish to submit will determine the ratings you must hold in order to conduct that flight. If you want to file a flight plan in the IFR CATEGORY, then you must hold (for twins) a ME CIR rating. If you want to file as NVFR CATEGORY then you must hold a ME NVFR rating.
If you have a ME CIR and have filed an IFR category flight plan then Tinstaafl is correct you can operate ME NVFR procedures (even if you only hold a SE NVFR rating), provided you meet the NVFR currency/recency/experience requirements.
However, just because a pilot has MECIR rating (which authorises him to conduct a multi-engine flight under NVFR PROCEDURES) does not automatically imply that he can then jump into a twin and conduct a night flight under a NVFR CATEGORY flight plan, or on a no-plan basis. For this he needs a ME NVFR rating.
If a pilot only held a MECIR and a SE NVFR rating, he would be forced to file an IFR flight plan, even if he only wanted to take a twin up just for a PVT local night scenic flight within 5nm radius of the departure aerodrome with his friends, in order to give him the legal authority to conduct a ME flight under NVFR PROCEDURES. This is hardly a practical or workable option given that (in Australia) you will have to interact with ATC because of your IFR status - and this will cost you!
This is where swh's previous advice re applying for the lifting of the SE restriction on your NVFR rating makes such good sense as it gives the pilot the legal flexibility of either flying ME NVFR procedures under an IFR category flight plan or flying ME NVFR procedures under a NVFR category flight plan.
Last edited by QSK?; 17th May 2004 at 00:45.
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Had this happen a few years ago...
A ME/CIR doesn't not give you a ME/NVFR Rating, but it does let you operate as if you had one. If your CIR expires, so do your NVFR privilages! As such CASA would not remove my SE restriction on my NVFR without another flight test...
A ME/CIR doesn't not give you a ME/NVFR Rating, but it does let you operate as if you had one. If your CIR expires, so do your NVFR privilages! As such CASA would not remove my SE restriction on my NVFR without another flight test...
No, it's as I said. The CIR plus the specified NVFR experience (note: not necessarily hold a NVFR rating) automatically gives the pilot NVFR privileges - as long as the CIR hasn't lapsed & recency requirements are met, of course.
That doesn't mean that the type of operation or equipment/aircraft allow the pilot's available privileges to be used eg single engine charter with pax, or multi engine charter but a/c not equipped for IFR.
That doesn't mean that the type of operation or equipment/aircraft allow the pilot's available privileges to be used eg single engine charter with pax, or multi engine charter but a/c not equipped for IFR.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 28th May 2004 at 03:28.
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Defiant:
My understanding is that to fly at night under a (ME)PIFR rating the pilot is also required to hold an FPA for ME night flying (if the pilot already holds a ME NVFR rating, the night FPA is automatically granted to the pilot by CASA).
Provided the pilot files a IFR CATEGORY flight plan and also holds a MEPIFR with a night FPA, he can fly under VFR or NVFR Procedures to an airport with no navaids. He could also fly IFR procedures to an airport with a navaid, but only if he holds the additional (or relevant) FPAs for enroute navigation and for the various instrument approaches at the airport.
If a PIFR pilot held the full range of FPAs, functionally he would be no different to a pilot holding a MECIR. The major difference between a MECIR and MEPIFR is the issue of recency and renewal. PIFR/FPAs are only subject to a biennial review while MECIR is subject to annual review and very strict requirements re maintaining proficiency on various IFR aspects.
Notwithstanding the regulatory gap between the two ratings, CASA recommends that PIFR pilots should still adopt the (higher/stricter) MECIR requirements pertaining to recency in order to maintain their IFR proficiency.
My understanding is that to fly at night under a (ME)PIFR rating the pilot is also required to hold an FPA for ME night flying (if the pilot already holds a ME NVFR rating, the night FPA is automatically granted to the pilot by CASA).
Provided the pilot files a IFR CATEGORY flight plan and also holds a MEPIFR with a night FPA, he can fly under VFR or NVFR Procedures to an airport with no navaids. He could also fly IFR procedures to an airport with a navaid, but only if he holds the additional (or relevant) FPAs for enroute navigation and for the various instrument approaches at the airport.
If a PIFR pilot held the full range of FPAs, functionally he would be no different to a pilot holding a MECIR. The major difference between a MECIR and MEPIFR is the issue of recency and renewal. PIFR/FPAs are only subject to a biennial review while MECIR is subject to annual review and very strict requirements re maintaining proficiency on various IFR aspects.
Notwithstanding the regulatory gap between the two ratings, CASA recommends that PIFR pilots should still adopt the (higher/stricter) MECIR requirements pertaining to recency in order to maintain their IFR proficiency.
