ask an FOI
captwawa,
If you have questions that you want an FOI to answer why not just ring them up and ask? In my experience( over 25 years) I've only found them , and others in CASA/ASA, helpful in clearing up points of contention and areas where I don't have specific knowledge; others may have and probably will have other experiences but that's mine.
Just a suggestion so that you don't get rumours but facts.
If you have questions that you want an FOI to answer why not just ring them up and ask? In my experience( over 25 years) I've only found them , and others in CASA/ASA, helpful in clearing up points of contention and areas where I don't have specific knowledge; others may have and probably will have other experiences but that's mine.
Just a suggestion so that you don't get rumours but facts.
PPRuNeaholic
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Yeah, good idea and really quite practical. Let's try to get 6 different FOIs... that way we'll end up with 12 different answers! We'd all feel right at home... 
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Every time I've asked an FOI for advice on a technical matter or interpretation of the rules they say, "I'll get back to you". But they never seem to. Thought they were sposed to be the AUTHORITY.
I'd like to see an FOI with enough guts to get on here and have a go.
I'd like to see an FOI with enough guts to get on here and have a go.
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exactly, i rang last week with a question, response was "ill get back to you.." Did they?? no.
Rang yesterday, it seamed that every office was out to lunch, went from Brisbane, Darwin, Perth all different time zones but just an answering machine answered.
Today finally got on to them, response was ill get back to you. and the guy rang back well the FOI didnt, a cleck did with the answer to my question.
Now if they had an internet based question forum either in pprune or www.casa.gov.au, and some FOI who answered the questions would be benifical for all.
Just a thought, and that way if casa tell you something its on record too,
Rang yesterday, it seamed that every office was out to lunch, went from Brisbane, Darwin, Perth all different time zones but just an answering machine answered.
Today finally got on to them, response was ill get back to you. and the guy rang back well the FOI didnt, a cleck did with the answer to my question.
Now if they had an internet based question forum either in pprune or www.casa.gov.au, and some FOI who answered the questions would be benifical for all.
Just a thought, and that way if casa tell you something its on record too,
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CASA section on PPRuNe.?
'Twould be useful for us both.
This has been mooted before and I will follow it up. Recent changes there may put a different slant on it.
If it were to come about it would have to be "queue" moderated.
Readers may not be aware that unlike some others, this Forum is moderated in real time, i.e. your posts appear immediately you submit them.
The alternative if it gets too unruly, is for the mods to check each post before it is released to the Forum, resulting in delays until the (long suffering,
volunteer
, unpaid, 
human foibled 
) mods can find the time to do it.
I do not know if we could separate that section from the rest of D & G, I will ask.
They would only take it seriously were it to be constructive.
'Twould be useful for us both.
This has been mooted before and I will follow it up. Recent changes there may put a different slant on it.
If it were to come about it would have to be "queue" moderated.
Readers may not be aware that unlike some others, this Forum is moderated in real time, i.e. your posts appear immediately you submit them.
The alternative if it gets too unruly, is for the mods to check each post before it is released to the Forum, resulting in delays until the (long suffering,
volunteer, unpaid, human foibled ) mods can find the time to do it. I do not know if we could separate that section from the rest of D & G, I will ask.
They would only take it seriously were it to be constructive.
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There'd be more flak than downtown Berlin circa 1943!! 
Who in their right minds would want to set themselves up as a target on THESE forums!!!
If you have a question, call and ask. If they don't get back to you, call them back! It's not that hard, really....
Who in their right minds would want to set themselves up as a target on THESE forums!!!
If you have a question, call and ask. If they don't get back to you, call them back! It's not that hard, really....
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Well, aside from my previous very glib post, Islander Jock is right. I know at least one FOI who is a regular on PPRuNe. He actually DOES try to answer things within his frame of knowledge and experience. If he says that he'll get back to you, he will - it's certainly true that none of the FOIs will have the answer to every question straight away. It is also unreasonable to expect that.
The biggest problem, I think, is that most things boil down to a matter of interpretation. Let's face it, many of the rules are open to several different interpretations. The FOI has to be sure that the answer to any particular question reflects the most likely legal interpretation so, sometimes, a fair bit of consultation is necessary before an answer can be given.
That might take a while and, after all, they all have other things to do during each day. They all, for example, have an annual work schedule - stuff that they have to accomplish each year, within a specific timeframe. So, if they're not in their offices, they might be out to lunch, or they might be out doing the things that are on their work schedule.
It's probably worth remembering, too, that FOIs are pilots, or former pilots, with some exposure to "legal-ese". They aren't solicitors or barristers or QCs, or whatever. So, unless a question is really simple to answer, it would be reasonable to expect a bit of delay in them getting back to you.
For all of that, I feel fairly certain that a referral from Woomera would be treated with...
or
or
or
or 
... or all of the above!
The biggest problem, I think, is that most things boil down to a matter of interpretation. Let's face it, many of the rules are open to several different interpretations. The FOI has to be sure that the answer to any particular question reflects the most likely legal interpretation so, sometimes, a fair bit of consultation is necessary before an answer can be given.
That might take a while and, after all, they all have other things to do during each day. They all, for example, have an annual work schedule - stuff that they have to accomplish each year, within a specific timeframe. So, if they're not in their offices, they might be out to lunch, or they might be out doing the things that are on their work schedule.
It's probably worth remembering, too, that FOIs are pilots, or former pilots, with some exposure to "legal-ese". They aren't solicitors or barristers or QCs, or whatever. So, unless a question is really simple to answer, it would be reasonable to expect a bit of delay in them getting back to you.
For all of that, I feel fairly certain that a referral from Woomera would be treated with...
or or or or ... or all of the above!
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Well its a part of an FOI's job to have an excellent knowledge of the rules, after all the do enforce them, and they dont really fly that much, so they would have lots of time to reflect on the CAO and CARs etc etc
Why dont the FOI's who use pprune identify them selves at FOI's so people then know when they asked a question and an FOI answered it that its likely to be the right answer.
After all like wawa said " in the interests of aviation saftey" it wouldnt be a bad idea to have some type of online question forum for casa where people ask questions.. Why not i say.... Bring it on
Why dont the FOI's who use pprune identify them selves at FOI's so people then know when they asked a question and an FOI answered it that its likely to be the right answer.
After all like wawa said " in the interests of aviation saftey" it wouldnt be a bad idea to have some type of online question forum for casa where people ask questions.. Why not i say.... Bring it on
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have absolutely NO doubt there are CASA eyes on this forum.
I can tell you from several experiances that CASA use this site to gather information.
Be careful..........there out there...........watching, and patiently waiting...........and they will get you.
I can tell you from several experiances that CASA use this site to gather information.
Be careful..........there out there...........watching, and patiently waiting...........and they will get you.
The vast majority of FOI's I would have thought would not have legal delegation that enables them to provide legal "interpretation" or provide legal advice on the CAO's/CAR's/AIP.
I would image very few of them would be trained legal practitioners, therefore unable to give legal advice.
The FOI would be more than capable to provide the industry with current CASA policy, this is also generally available on the CASA web site in the form of the CASA procedure manuals.
I am aware of FOI's/AI's that have given incorrect advice outside the scope of their delegations, e.g. an FOI is not an airworthiness delegate, nor is an airworthiness/engineering delegate a flying operations delegate.
FOI's etc are delegates of the government, i.e. their role has a legal limit on their scope delegated responsibility, a standard FOI has less delegated responsibility than an area manager, which has less power than the head of CASA.
CASA's role is to create and administer the legislation for civil aviation, and to introduce additional legislation when a court or similar body makes an "interpretation" which is not consistent with the original intent, or changes to international treaties/rules.
To provide an analogy of the role of an FOI is to think of them as police officers, a police officer is a “sworn” officer which enforces the law of the government. A police officer does not provide legal advice. Where the cloud of confusion exists with CASA is that one part of it is the “police force” i.e the FOI, while another part has the role to create the delegated legislation under section 98 of the Act.
FOIs providing "interpretation" of the rules, or providing legal advice (which is essentially what they are doing when you ask for an opinion on a regulation etc) is one of the reasons why I think their is so much inconsistency between area offices, and one of the reasons industry is so disillusioned with CASA, and the role they have in our industry.
5L&R, I have more time for an FOI that says to "I'll get back to you", in my experience this results in them making a written request (via email normally) to the office of legal council in Canberra, which in turn reply in writing to the FOI on the technical matter. I know the response the FOI’s have received back has at times were educational and somewhat different to the "interpretation" the FOI or their area manager came up with.
CASA has created confusion by asking industry to make first contact with the FOI/AI responsible for their operation, where I believe the industry should be able to know when the information given to them is representative and consistent with that of the office of legal council, or is the FOI’s personal opinion.
If you look at the way the tax office works, they have their enforcement arm, and the also provide mechanisms via rulings, or private rulings to obtain a legal "interpretation" of the law.
I see other issues with providing "advise" on a forum like this, including having to update "advice" when rules change, and the inability to provide historical control over changes.
IMHO the original question that started the post highlights CASA’s inability to convey to industry the role different parts of CASA has, and it’s public education/interface in is inept and not user friendly.
I would image very few of them would be trained legal practitioners, therefore unable to give legal advice.
The FOI would be more than capable to provide the industry with current CASA policy, this is also generally available on the CASA web site in the form of the CASA procedure manuals.
I am aware of FOI's/AI's that have given incorrect advice outside the scope of their delegations, e.g. an FOI is not an airworthiness delegate, nor is an airworthiness/engineering delegate a flying operations delegate.
FOI's etc are delegates of the government, i.e. their role has a legal limit on their scope delegated responsibility, a standard FOI has less delegated responsibility than an area manager, which has less power than the head of CASA.
CASA's role is to create and administer the legislation for civil aviation, and to introduce additional legislation when a court or similar body makes an "interpretation" which is not consistent with the original intent, or changes to international treaties/rules.
To provide an analogy of the role of an FOI is to think of them as police officers, a police officer is a “sworn” officer which enforces the law of the government. A police officer does not provide legal advice. Where the cloud of confusion exists with CASA is that one part of it is the “police force” i.e the FOI, while another part has the role to create the delegated legislation under section 98 of the Act.
FOIs providing "interpretation" of the rules, or providing legal advice (which is essentially what they are doing when you ask for an opinion on a regulation etc) is one of the reasons why I think their is so much inconsistency between area offices, and one of the reasons industry is so disillusioned with CASA, and the role they have in our industry.
5L&R, I have more time for an FOI that says to "I'll get back to you", in my experience this results in them making a written request (via email normally) to the office of legal council in Canberra, which in turn reply in writing to the FOI on the technical matter. I know the response the FOI’s have received back has at times were educational and somewhat different to the "interpretation" the FOI or their area manager came up with.
CASA has created confusion by asking industry to make first contact with the FOI/AI responsible for their operation, where I believe the industry should be able to know when the information given to them is representative and consistent with that of the office of legal council, or is the FOI’s personal opinion.
If you look at the way the tax office works, they have their enforcement arm, and the also provide mechanisms via rulings, or private rulings to obtain a legal "interpretation" of the law.
I see other issues with providing "advise" on a forum like this, including having to update "advice" when rules change, and the inability to provide historical control over changes.
IMHO the original question that started the post highlights CASA’s inability to convey to industry the role different parts of CASA has, and it’s public education/interface in is inept and not user friendly.
Last edited by swh; 3rd Apr 2004 at 09:59.
PPRuNeaholic
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Just a slight modification to yer post wiz. The only reason why CASA's eyes are on this forum is coz they're watching YOU!
captain marvellous...
You mean to say that you've never done that? I know quite a few people who've been drunk in an aero club bar...
captain marvellous...
You may as well ask the drunk in the aero club bar for his opinion on regulatory matters – I’m sure he’d be willing to give you chapter and verse.
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actually, now ya mention it Ozex, you might be onto something there.
And the other day when I was walking down the street, there was this guy on the roof of a house, building something......... and he was hammering out "I'm gunna get you" repeatedly, in morse.
But CASA don't stand a chance.............not with the CIA following me around.
And the other day when I was walking down the street, there was this guy on the roof of a house, building something......... and he was hammering out "I'm gunna get you" repeatedly, in morse.
But CASA don't stand a chance.............not with the CIA following me around.
