Sep02 Hamilton Is accident ATSB report
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Let's just take a step back eh?
Ginjockey,
Couldn't agree more. ATSB only reported what they (and the coroner) found and it would have been wrong of them NOT to report the findings in total. They went to some length to point out the postmortem aspects of their findings which I think was fair and reasonable in the circumstances. Also, remember 5 others died in this crash too....not just the pilot....so there certainly is some strong interest in the findings no doubt with several years of legal wrangling in the offering at a later stage (if it hasn't commenced already).
I do have one question for all the naysayers though.....what the hell is a professional pilot doing smoking dope AT ANY TIME? and to the chap who said that to breath test pilots was putting their livelihoods on the line (or words to that effect), doesn't the same apply to the truckies, cabbies, bus drivers etc etc that are breathtested regularly? Don't think for one moment that we are somehow any different from them because quite frankly we are not.
Couldn't agree more. ATSB only reported what they (and the coroner) found and it would have been wrong of them NOT to report the findings in total. They went to some length to point out the postmortem aspects of their findings which I think was fair and reasonable in the circumstances. Also, remember 5 others died in this crash too....not just the pilot....so there certainly is some strong interest in the findings no doubt with several years of legal wrangling in the offering at a later stage (if it hasn't commenced already).
I do have one question for all the naysayers though.....what the hell is a professional pilot doing smoking dope AT ANY TIME? and to the chap who said that to breath test pilots was putting their livelihoods on the line (or words to that effect), doesn't the same apply to the truckies, cabbies, bus drivers etc etc that are breathtested regularly? Don't think for one moment that we are somehow any different from them because quite frankly we are not.
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Below is an extract from "Alcohol in Decomposed Bodies: Postmortem Synthesis and Distribution" by Gilliland & Bost.
Blood alcohol (ethanol) concentrations in decomposed bodies can mean drinking during life and/or endogenous production after death. The correct interpretation is important in medicolegal cases. This retrospective study of 286 autopsied medical examiner cases was undertaken to evaluate alcohol concentrations and distribution in various fluids and tissues in decomposed bodies. Cases with alcohol present were classified as endogenous production, ingestion, or unable to determine based upon one or more of the following criteria: the presence of ethanol in only one of more than one body fluids, an atypical distribution of ethanol in body fluids, reliable scene or historical information, the presence of C3 alcohols in body fluids.
Alcohol was classified as endogenously produced in 55 cases. The presence of alcohol was attributed to ingestion in 130 cases. No alcohol was detected in 39 cases. We were unable to determine the source of the remaining 62 alcohol concentrations.
The highest blood alcohol concentration derived from endogenous production was 0.07% in the cases with other fluids negative. The mean blood alcohol concentration was 0.06% and ranged as high as 0.16% in cases having atypical ratios. Alcohol was found in blood and bile while urine and vitreous fluid were negative or had lower concentrations in cases with endogenous production.
We conclude that for the majority of cases in which endogenous blood production of alcohol occurs the concentration in blood may be as high as 0.15%.
The ATSB quite clearly indicates that post mortem production of alcohol is a possible explanation (and 0.081 is well within the range). It's just those journo's
taking everything out of context for the sake of sensationalism. As for the grass...hmmmm.
Blood alcohol (ethanol) concentrations in decomposed bodies can mean drinking during life and/or endogenous production after death. The correct interpretation is important in medicolegal cases. This retrospective study of 286 autopsied medical examiner cases was undertaken to evaluate alcohol concentrations and distribution in various fluids and tissues in decomposed bodies. Cases with alcohol present were classified as endogenous production, ingestion, or unable to determine based upon one or more of the following criteria: the presence of ethanol in only one of more than one body fluids, an atypical distribution of ethanol in body fluids, reliable scene or historical information, the presence of C3 alcohols in body fluids.
Alcohol was classified as endogenously produced in 55 cases. The presence of alcohol was attributed to ingestion in 130 cases. No alcohol was detected in 39 cases. We were unable to determine the source of the remaining 62 alcohol concentrations.
The highest blood alcohol concentration derived from endogenous production was 0.07% in the cases with other fluids negative. The mean blood alcohol concentration was 0.06% and ranged as high as 0.16% in cases having atypical ratios. Alcohol was found in blood and bile while urine and vitreous fluid were negative or had lower concentrations in cases with endogenous production.
We conclude that for the majority of cases in which endogenous blood production of alcohol occurs the concentration in blood may be as high as 0.15%.
The ATSB quite clearly indicates that post mortem production of alcohol is a possible explanation (and 0.081 is well within the range). It's just those journo's
taking everything out of context for the sake of sensationalism. As for the grass...hmmmm.
Just Binos
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PROPSWINGA:
You mean, say, on his days off? He's doing whatever the hell he likes, that's what, and who are you to impose your own values on his actions? If you want to get into a full scale debate on the physical effects of smoking marijuana compared to drinking alcohol then go right ahead. Start another thread on it and you will be blown right out of the very shallow water you are standing in.
I don't smoke marijuana these days, it's way too expensive for me, but I do my fair share of drinking, and narrow-minded uneducated sanctimonious attitudes like yours get up my nose.
what the hell is a professional pilot doing smoking dope AT ANY TIME?
I don't smoke marijuana these days, it's way too expensive for me, but I do my fair share of drinking, and narrow-minded uneducated sanctimonious attitudes like yours get up my nose.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Sounds like a plan......... I can remeber both of us being a little alcohol damaged once before. I'm sure it effects the memory, coz we go right back and do it again next day. 
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Binos,
I think you area bit harsh on Propswinga. The attitude that a pilot can do whatever he likes on his day off is a bit lame really. Why not just go whack a needle full of hard stuff into your arm on your day off or snort up a pile of coke just because it's a rostered day off then rock up for a flight the next morning?
I gotta say that mind altering drugs have no place in the industry and I think the ATSB is suggesting the very same thing in their report at the start of this thread.
Your response reeks of the same wild paranoia that a lot of users display when a police car happens to drive past their house. Calm down son.
GJ
I think you area bit harsh on Propswinga. The attitude that a pilot can do whatever he likes on his day off is a bit lame really. Why not just go whack a needle full of hard stuff into your arm on your day off or snort up a pile of coke just because it's a rostered day off then rock up for a flight the next morning?
I gotta say that mind altering drugs have no place in the industry and I think the ATSB is suggesting the very same thing in their report at the start of this thread.
Your response reeks of the same wild paranoia that a lot of users display when a police car happens to drive past their house. Calm down son.
GJ
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Is it at all possible that the day before , this unfortunate chap was in a confined area like a lounge room and watched TV with his flatmate who was all gunja'd up , doobied out , etc etc ?
could exposure to exhaled weed smoke be detected in a wee sample or show up in blood tests ?
of course the amounts would have to be trace quantities , but would they be enough to declare a person as having "tested positive" ??
I enjoy raggae music just for something different sometimes and notice that the cigarette or weed stink appears on my clothes after a few hours in a club , question now is will i fail a test and if so , for how long after ?
anyone here have similar thoughts or concerns ?
could exposure to exhaled weed smoke be detected in a wee sample or show up in blood tests ?
of course the amounts would have to be trace quantities , but would they be enough to declare a person as having "tested positive" ??
I enjoy raggae music just for something different sometimes and notice that the cigarette or weed stink appears on my clothes after a few hours in a club , question now is will i fail a test and if so , for how long after ?
anyone here have similar thoughts or concerns ?
Just Binos
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Your response reeks of the same wild paranoia that a lot of users display when a police car happens to drive past their house. Calm down son.
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ATSB doesnt seem to reflect on the unwritten company policy of not having fuel in the tip tanks due to the short sectors and many many landings these cherokees made in one day!!!
(Trying to eade a bit of the strain on the poor HEAVY beasts)
Can someone tell me how long a C6 will run on about 1-2 litres of fuel that is kept in the tip tanks to keep the seals wet...
I would guess around enough time to start, taxi from HIA full backtrack of 14 as andrew would usually do and takeoff to the end of the threshold before exhaustion!!!!
Interesting!!!! Could have been as simple as someone kicking the fuel selector to the AUX tank as it is conveiently located on the floor...
As for the Alcohol thing the Chief pilot (helicopters) was on board for the leg SHR-YBHM (the leg immediately before the fateful one) I am verry sure he would have noticed if there was something amiss Re: smelling like a brewery!!
RIP Andrew, I didnt know you very well but felt very comfortable on the odd trip between SHR-YBHM.....
(Trying to eade a bit of the strain on the poor HEAVY beasts)
Can someone tell me how long a C6 will run on about 1-2 litres of fuel that is kept in the tip tanks to keep the seals wet...
I would guess around enough time to start, taxi from HIA full backtrack of 14 as andrew would usually do and takeoff to the end of the threshold before exhaustion!!!!
Interesting!!!! Could have been as simple as someone kicking the fuel selector to the AUX tank as it is conveiently located on the floor...
As for the Alcohol thing the Chief pilot (helicopters) was on board for the leg SHR-YBHM (the leg immediately before the fateful one) I am verry sure he would have noticed if there was something amiss Re: smelling like a brewery!!
RIP Andrew, I didnt know you very well but felt very comfortable on the odd trip between SHR-YBHM.....
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Skidbita... now we are getting close to what most likely occured. ATSB knew all of what you have have said, but they choose not to mention this in their report. An injustice to the pilot and all involved at HI...
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Brame,
If what skidbita claims is true (and I am not disputing it as I have no idea) can you tell me why the atsb would not include that in it's final report?
What is your theory on why they would not report those findings?
If what skidbita claims is true (and I am not disputing it as I have no idea) can you tell me why the atsb would not include that in it's final report?
What is your theory on why they would not report those findings?
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V2..... Mine and I think Skidbita's opinion is based on the probable cause and should not to be confused with evidance. Due to the extent of the dammage to the aircraft, no conclusions could have been possiblely made on his fuel handling at the time of the loss of power. I also think that anyone around at the time would have formed the same opinion as we have. I can not accept that a young, fit and diligent pilots' judgement would have been affected by booze or drugs so late in his working day. He had been working all day and the tragedy occured after 5:00PM.
He did however make an error of judgement by turning back (in my opinion).
He did however make an error of judgement by turning back (in my opinion).
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What SKIDBITA ( gday mate )has said is true of what we all discussed around the beer garden that fateful arvo and the many discussions we all had after. We will never know if that was the thing that happened but it does semm very likely.
Whether he did turn back all wing drop after stall spun him around from a very high wing loading will probably not be either.
Drugs , acohol and possibly fatigue are all factors and I think trace amounts of hoota found in his system to effect him is blaa blaa blaa.
p.s hope the moral at iat and hia has gotton better I know the helo pilots have got it good
Whether he did turn back all wing drop after stall spun him around from a very high wing loading will probably not be either.
Drugs , acohol and possibly fatigue are all factors and I think trace amounts of hoota found in his system to effect him is blaa blaa blaa.
p.s hope the moral at iat and hia has gotton better I know the helo pilots have got it good
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Message for Bino
You mate are an absolute drop kick! Yep, we know and expect just about everyone to have the odd beer/wine/drink and as long as the old bottle to throttle rule is maintained; no problemo! But the partaking of hooch is still illegal in this country and as a consequence, there is absolutely no room for it in this industry....on your days off or at any other time and any professional pilot out their that thinks it is OK to partake in such a pasttime and then operate an aircraft is pretty bl**dy irresponsible. If you worked for me; you would be FIRED ON THE SPOT and I would make no appologies whatsoever for my actions.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Gosh, thats a bit harsh.
Couldn't ever see Binos working for you though.
I wouldnt be to surprised to find yourself in a looooong hold somewhere one day If I was you. 
Couldn't ever see Binos working for you though.
I wouldnt be to surprised to find yourself in a looooong hold somewhere one day If I was you.
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WIZ and BINO
With the attitude you clowns expouse on this thread, I would be very surprised if either of you two were employed ANYWHERE least of all in this industry!
Why not have another 'toke' and chill out for a bit?
Why not have another 'toke' and chill out for a bit?
I think that it is time for some people here to perhaps (OK, please excuse the obvious reference to drug taking here...) take a Bex and have a nice hot cup of caffine or whatever it takes to slow some of you down a tad. This is a time where perhaps we can all learn something from each other, if only some would slow down and listen.
I knew Andrew personally, and had worked with him not 4 months previously at Alligator in YPKU. In the time that I had spent around him socially, and indeed at work, I saw not one single sign that indicated any form of either illegal substance or alcohol abuse or dependence. Sure, everyone got down to Gullivers and the Hotel from time to time and got onto a bit of grog every now and again, but be rest assured that it was only of such quantity as would normally be considered "socially acceptable".
Propswinga wrote:
Is completely ignoring the evidence that states that there is more than an even chance that any residual (no matter how small and amount, and in fact it possibly wouldn't have showed-up in an ordinary breath test) alcohol that was present in his system at the time of his demise would have triggered his decaying cells into turning normal blood sugar and fatty tissue into alcohol. Why does decaying meat start to stink? I'll give you one guess.... But I will tell all and sundry here and now that it is my personal belief that Andrew showed-up for work in a reasonably (OK, he may have been tired) fit state and certainly no worse than someone who has missed a couple of hours sleep.
Weed? Well that really isn't my cuppa tea, but I am sure that that sort of stuff is rife though society and I'm not gonna make a moral judgement here. Suffice to say that to absorb it one doesn't neccessarily have to partake in its use, merely be present or near to persons partaking in it.
To suggest that because it was in his system then he was a user of said substance is utterly ludicrous, and shows no understanding whatsoever of the human metabolic and respiratory systems and how a body absorbs toxins.
Oh, one more thing props... About Wiz and Binos... wrong! Both are nearing the top of their chosen aviation fields. I could tell you where but I'd much prefer to watch you make a spectacle of yourself.
I have my own ideas as to why Andrew turned the way he did, and one of them involves the position of the fuel selector and having a head down at the same time..... I guess I'll never know.
Tooheys... From info my DAME gave me you are a lot closer to the truth than you might realise. Have a good one.
OpsN.
I knew Andrew personally, and had worked with him not 4 months previously at Alligator in YPKU. In the time that I had spent around him socially, and indeed at work, I saw not one single sign that indicated any form of either illegal substance or alcohol abuse or dependence. Sure, everyone got down to Gullivers and the Hotel from time to time and got onto a bit of grog every now and again, but be rest assured that it was only of such quantity as would normally be considered "socially acceptable".
Propswinga wrote:
Yep, we know and expect just about everyone to have the odd beer/wine/drink and as long as the old bottle to throttle rule is maintained; no problemo!
Weed? Well that really isn't my cuppa tea, but I am sure that that sort of stuff is rife though society and I'm not gonna make a moral judgement here. Suffice to say that to absorb it one doesn't neccessarily have to partake in its use, merely be present or near to persons partaking in it.
To suggest that because it was in his system then he was a user of said substance is utterly ludicrous, and shows no understanding whatsoever of the human metabolic and respiratory systems and how a body absorbs toxins.
Oh, one more thing props... About Wiz and Binos... wrong! Both are nearing the top of their chosen aviation fields. I could tell you where but I'd much prefer to watch you make a spectacle of yourself.
I have my own ideas as to why Andrew turned the way he did, and one of them involves the position of the fuel selector and having a head down at the same time..... I guess I'll never know.
Tooheys... From info my DAME gave me you are a lot closer to the truth than you might realise. Have a good one.
OpsN.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Propswinger (do you even know what a prop is for?). Mate I am happily employed in this industry, and have been for quite a while........ and it gets even better......... I own the company I work for. AAAAH, you gotta love it. Now look here you uninformed, over opinionated, under achiever. Just because I don't smoke weed, doesn't mean I can't think your a knob for telling me I can't. I am quite capable of making up my own mind without the help of some little sanctimonious turd that thinks he knows more than me. And as for me mate Binos, I just hope he works out who you are and your fortunate to end up under his authority one day, although, I would guess that his profesionalism would preclude him from "flexing a little muscle" on you.
Have yerselver a bloody Bonza day, and I hope you don't get a sore neck looking at all the planes.
Bino's, your much better at the fancy words old mate, your turn.
AAAAH, you gotta love it. Now look here you uninformed, over opinionated, under achiever. Just because I don't smoke weed, doesn't mean I can't think your a knob for telling me I can't. I am quite capable of making up my own mind without the help of some little sanctimonious turd that thinks he knows more than me. And as for me mate Binos, I just hope he works out who you are and your fortunate to end up under his authority one day, although, I would guess that his profesionalism would preclude him from "flexing a little muscle" on you.Have yerselver a bloody Bonza day, and I hope you don't get a sore neck looking at all the planes.
Bino's, your much better at the fancy words old mate, your turn.