The employees have no money, then let them eat cake!
The employees have no money, then let them eat cake!
Now excuse another rant and rave about the poor conditions that large numbers of pilots go through but was talking to a strange person in a bar and this is a b%&l tearer of a move I just heard about. One southcoast operator recently hit their staff up with a contract (after most staff had already been working for them for several years). This new you beaut contract included a one third reduction in pay and a waiver for workers compensation and super (is that legal?). I would have beleived this as a beer time story but have an inside source who has also read the contract.
The story gets better when one employee was presented with the contract during their CIR debrief, and after refusing to sign was told as a side bar that they had failed their renewal. This the person interpreted as being as a direct result of them not signing a new contract (if true the testing officer should have all testing approvals removed). The person passed their renewal the next day at YSBK. Quite rightly they made a few waves over the treatment they had received and resigned (can't blame him either). The company then bought him off and forced him to sign a confidentially clause as to not disclose the sum paid and that he would not persue other avenues of complaint. I wonder how much money they saved on new contracts compared to the hush money paid out.
This kind of action makes me sick, what is the industry coming too. I know there are good operators out there, I have worked for them and have friends that do to. Why would you work for this kind of company, even if you get paid badly else where at least they don't make you sign a contract giving them your soul and future. Perhaps its the lure of flying aeroplanes painted red and yellow instead of the standard white.
This industry is going to hell in a hand cart!
The story gets better when one employee was presented with the contract during their CIR debrief, and after refusing to sign was told as a side bar that they had failed their renewal. This the person interpreted as being as a direct result of them not signing a new contract (if true the testing officer should have all testing approvals removed). The person passed their renewal the next day at YSBK. Quite rightly they made a few waves over the treatment they had received and resigned (can't blame him either). The company then bought him off and forced him to sign a confidentially clause as to not disclose the sum paid and that he would not persue other avenues of complaint. I wonder how much money they saved on new contracts compared to the hush money paid out.
This kind of action makes me sick, what is the industry coming too. I know there are good operators out there, I have worked for them and have friends that do to. Why would you work for this kind of company, even if you get paid badly else where at least they don't make you sign a contract giving them your soul and future. Perhaps its the lure of flying aeroplanes painted red and yellow instead of the standard white.
This industry is going to hell in a hand cart!
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This industry is going to hell in a hand cart!
I'm afraid you may be right. I just rec. yet another CV from a Pilot that offered to work for free.
G.A. in Australia may well end up the same as G.A. in the USA.
Instructors working for just a few dollars, even in the well known schools - and Pilots then paying an operator to get twin time up in charter/freight.
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If student numbers are not capped this sort of practice will only get worse.
The reality is that the employer chooses what to pay and when to pay it and the reason behind this is that there is a massive oversupply.
To be a doctor you have to sit an interview in front of the medical board to earn the right to go to uni to do medicine. Do you see those guys working for free?
No, not a chance in hell.
The reality is that the employer chooses what to pay and when to pay it and the reason behind this is that there is a massive oversupply.
To be a doctor you have to sit an interview in front of the medical board to earn the right to go to uni to do medicine. Do you see those guys working for free?
No, not a chance in hell.
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Good on him/her for having the dignity, pride and b@lls to stand-up to these shameless pimps who are too narrow-minded to have the foresight to avoid taking a good ****e in their own nest!! 
I'm sure a proffesional organisation will happily put the said individuals skills to good use in no time!
It all reminds me of a proverb I read the other day along the lines of: "The little reed in the wind-blown waters of the lake, bowed sharply as the storm raged. But well after the storm had passed and was long since forgotten, the reed stood as tall and as proud as ever."
I'm sure a proffesional organisation will happily put the said individuals skills to good use in no time!
It all reminds me of a proverb I read the other day along the lines of: "The little reed in the wind-blown waters of the lake, bowed sharply as the storm raged. But well after the storm had passed and was long since forgotten, the reed stood as tall and as proud as ever."
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We have a union, not much use with only a small amount of pilots as members.
We have an award, about time people (Pilots and Operators)started to remember that. Guess what, you dont even need to be a union member to be covered by the award.
We also need to remember that an enterprise agreement cannot degrade the conditions of the award.
If all operators paid the award the prices would need to be set on that basis.
Yes once worked for a guy who got a consultant in to organize a work place agreement that started with "being no award for charter pilot....." I asked the question "what about the AFAP award" and refused to sign. Guess what it all went to the too hard basket.
Amazing how much better off we would be if all us GA guys could stick together and say "let me run this past the AFPA" rather than "OK i don't mind getting less and working more, yes i will doctor my F&D, ok if he does it so will I etc etc"
Together we can change the culture.
But I will dream on, can't see it happening in my lifetime.
We have an award, about time people (Pilots and Operators)started to remember that. Guess what, you dont even need to be a union member to be covered by the award.
We also need to remember that an enterprise agreement cannot degrade the conditions of the award.
If all operators paid the award the prices would need to be set on that basis.
Yes once worked for a guy who got a consultant in to organize a work place agreement that started with "being no award for charter pilot....." I asked the question "what about the AFAP award" and refused to sign. Guess what it all went to the too hard basket.
Amazing how much better off we would be if all us GA guys could stick together and say "let me run this past the AFPA" rather than "OK i don't mind getting less and working more, yes i will doctor my F&D, ok if he does it so will I etc etc"
Together we can change the culture.
But I will dream on, can't see it happening in my lifetime.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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scrambler; You are quite correct re your comment on the union situation. AFAP still exists and is still working. However; the apathy of a lot of GA pilots astound me. They grizzle about wages, allowances etc but are not members and when asked to consider joining make comments like 'what's the use!' (sic)
Many years ago a very wise man said something along the lines of,
"If we do not hang together then we will surely hang separately"
Non AFAP members......your call!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Many years ago a very wise man said something along the lines of,
"If we do not hang together then we will surely hang separately"
Non AFAP members......your call!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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Greed greed greed
Reverseflowkeroburna, you and your kind are part of the problem!!
The problem is that this person sold his/her integrity out for money, ie the "confidentially clause", which in doing so stopped action from the authoritories. This is nothing more than greed, pure and simple, and is the reason the this company will get away with it. You have the gaul to say on here well done, when the person here sold the whole industry out for money by the agreement of "here mate we will buy you off if you don't tell anyone". It's people like you and the person who hushed up that make the indrustry what it is. You take the easy way out .....you are traitors to the industry!!!
Good on him/her for having the dignity, pride and b@lls to stand-up to these shameless pimps who are too narrow-minded to have the foresight to avoid taking a good ****e in their own nest!!
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S & R:
They used to get a reply that included an analysis of their character - the severity of which was proportional to my mood and/or alcohol intake that evening.
Actually of late, my workload has left me with little time to reply with no more than ".....sorry, no positions at this time...." (cut and paste).
Slack I know but who has an hour a day extra to reply personally to each application when there is an increasing amount of paperwork to do.
S & R: I also have a bit of apathy now about these poor sods as I don't think it will change - in fact I think it will get worse - along the lines of the USA G.A. pay rates (lack of).
Now that it has become the norm for airlines to charge for an endorsement to get a job - this will further entrench new Pilots to think that it's every man/woman for themselves. What do you think?.
I have had more than one newby reply to me along the lines of - I have tried to find work now for months and will do anything for a start.
As long as there are Pilots who are willing to work for free and operators that are willing to take them on - the problem will never be solved. Both goups are equally to blame.
They used to get a reply that included an analysis of their character - the severity of which was proportional to my mood and/or alcohol intake that evening.
Actually of late, my workload has left me with little time to reply with no more than ".....sorry, no positions at this time...." (cut and paste).
Slack I know but who has an hour a day extra to reply personally to each application when there is an increasing amount of paperwork to do.
S & R: I also have a bit of apathy now about these poor sods as I don't think it will change - in fact I think it will get worse - along the lines of the USA G.A. pay rates (lack of).
Now that it has become the norm for airlines to charge for an endorsement to get a job - this will further entrench new Pilots to think that it's every man/woman for themselves. What do you think?.
I have had more than one newby reply to me along the lines of - I have tried to find work now for months and will do anything for a start.
As long as there are Pilots who are willing to work for free and operators that are willing to take them on - the problem will never be solved. Both goups are equally to blame.
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I have had more than one newby reply to me along the lines of - I have tried to find work now for months and will do anything for a start.
Having worked in the "normal" workforce I know my time is just as valuable as the next persons. A qualification is a qualification and takes hard work and cash to attain. Why shouldn't you be rewarded for it?
Unfortunately unless everybody stands together nothing is going to change. ...sif thats ever gonna happen
cheers
ps Rich-Fine-Green, know of any jobs going?
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I think you lot are getting a taste of what has been going on in NZ GA for many years now.
Hopefully your country steps in and solves the problem before it goes to far and you end up like these little islands.
Good luck and hopefully your government will give a sh$t.
splat
Hopefully your country steps in and solves the problem before it goes to far and you end up like these little islands.
Good luck and hopefully your government will give a sh$t.
splat
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What a joke!
This guys no doubt took the money as there would have been very few options available to him. Only problem is the confidentiality clause; it has no bearing or substance if it has been designed to 'cover up' some illegal activity. Having staff sign away their rights to superannuation and workcover is illegal and therefore the confidentiality clause too is illegal.
Suggest some legal boffin who regularly reads/contributes to these pages might like to touch base with the employee and start some serious follow-up action on their behalf. No wonder this industry has such a bad name with this type of stuff STILL happening
Maybe when the AUSAR contract comes up for renewal, they might like to look long and hard at the workplace and employment arrangements of this grubby little operation.
Suggest some legal boffin who regularly reads/contributes to these pages might like to touch base with the employee and start some serious follow-up action on their behalf.
No wonder this industry has such a bad name with this type of stuff STILL happening Maybe when the AUSAR contract comes up for renewal, they might like to look long and hard at the workplace and employment arrangements of this grubby little operation.
The more I think about it the more I think this kind of behaviour by operators and would be employees is becoming the norm. It's become a vicious circle, student learns to fly at a school that treats thier instructors like **** so guesses this is what happens and that you MUST go through it. By the time they finish their CPL they beleive that they must work for nothing or for ****** all to get employed, then then would be employer sais fantastic less money going out more coming in. As these pilots go through the industry they start out saying if I was running this company or had my own business things would be differen't, but by the time they get there they have come up with a mentallity well I had to do the hard yards then so should you. And here we are at the beggining again.
I have sat and had conversations with people who bitch and whinge about people doing things for free or ****** all then watched them turn around and offer to do it for next to nothing themselves just to get the flying. Operators know we love what we do which is why they always have us buy the balls. One day I would love to compile a list and publish it with all those cheapskate operators and pilots who will constantly still your work for nothing, however for legal reasons this will never be done (alas).
The union complains but I had been an Instructor/Charter pilot for 5 years before I had every heard of them! Perhaps getting out and about there more would get them more members (not that i am pro-union either).
To all the good operators who treat their pilots well and reward them with good pay and conitions I say good on you. To people like the would be criminals at the other companies I reckon at some stage there will be a bloody big day of reckoning where the oppressed masses will rise, and with the media picking up the story it will not be pretty. Now where's my red revolutionary cap.
I have sat and had conversations with people who bitch and whinge about people doing things for free or ****** all then watched them turn around and offer to do it for next to nothing themselves just to get the flying. Operators know we love what we do which is why they always have us buy the balls. One day I would love to compile a list and publish it with all those cheapskate operators and pilots who will constantly still your work for nothing, however for legal reasons this will never be done (alas).
The union complains but I had been an Instructor/Charter pilot for 5 years before I had every heard of them! Perhaps getting out and about there more would get them more members (not that i am pro-union either).
To all the good operators who treat their pilots well and reward them with good pay and conitions I say good on you. To people like the would be criminals at the other companies I reckon at some stage there will be a bloody big day of reckoning where the oppressed masses will rise, and with the media picking up the story it will not be pretty. Now where's my red revolutionary cap.
scrambler,
Are we (ga pilots) all covered by the award? From my understanding of it, I would agree that we are, however my story below makes me question that.
and pinky,
without trying to sound too apathetic...
Firstly, I'm all for having a united front through a union. However, can you give me some recent examples of GA pilots receiving their just remuneration after AFAP became involved? I'm not trying to be a smart@rse, I'm genuinely interested as I haven't heard of any.
I happen to know of two separate instances where union members have asked AFAP to act for them, AFAP have written a letter of demand to the employer (pay up or else blah blah), and the employer has ignored the letter, hoping nothing further would happen. Nothing did.... AFAP either didn't bother following it up, or their threats had no substance. That instills no confidence in me.
To me the above seems like a very straight forward, black and white legal action (assuming we are all covered by the award). Why can't AFAP even enforce the law, let alone negotiate above award agreements?
I'm now (just) in a situation where I can afford to join AFAP (ironic in itself), what am I going to get for my 1% + GST?
Are we (ga pilots) all covered by the award? From my understanding of it, I would agree that we are, however my story below makes me question that.
and pinky,
without trying to sound too apathetic...
Firstly, I'm all for having a united front through a union. However, can you give me some recent examples of GA pilots receiving their just remuneration after AFAP became involved? I'm not trying to be a smart@rse, I'm genuinely interested as I haven't heard of any.
I happen to know of two separate instances where union members have asked AFAP to act for them, AFAP have written a letter of demand to the employer (pay up or else blah blah), and the employer has ignored the letter, hoping nothing further would happen. Nothing did.... AFAP either didn't bother following it up, or their threats had no substance. That instills no confidence in me.
To me the above seems like a very straight forward, black and white legal action (assuming we are all covered by the award). Why can't AFAP even enforce the law, let alone negotiate above award agreements?
I'm now (just) in a situation where I can afford to join AFAP (ironic in itself), what am I going to get for my 1% + GST?
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United we stand
THE AFAP NEED TO HELP THEMSELVES. I agree that there is little or no publicity or promotion of the AFAP's activities, wins and losses.
That said, of all of us reading this now how many are menbers of the AFAP? How many of us have even ASKED? I'll start off - no I am not a member but I have rung their office and a membership pack is in the mail to me now. I'm joining as soon as I get it.
Very few pilots come from "blue collar" backgrounds and I'd bet London to a brick that most of us think like engine out in saying "I'm not pro-union either". Many of us in our late 20's and early 30's remember the union activism of the early 1980's and we still have negative connotations with Union politics. But a Union doesn't have to be all red-ragging trotsky-ites; the AFAP is a professional association as well as protecting your rights.
I have just ended a 2 1/2 year exile from Aviation, spent in underground Coal mining. I had been flying Chieftains (Chief Pilot, Science degree, ATPLs) for $650 pw (gross) plus CIR renewals. I moved to an underground mining job (zero experience, zero qualifications, zero interest, but I can lift hevvy fings) and membership of the CFMEU on $1,150 per week (gross). THAT is the benefit of sticking together. In the 1970s these guys were paid the equivalent of $400 pw.
If you are a member of the union you have some say in how it operates and behaves - it doesn't have to be another CFMEU, BLF or Wharfies union.
Similarly, membership of the union doesn't mean that you can't/won't work or that you want to make unreasonable demands on your employer. HE might justify your $250pw and no super as "just business". YOU can justify your right to a fair wage and your legal entitlements as "just business" too.
Finally, how can the union campaign effectively if all of us in GA just whinge, complain and bitch and follow it up with "but I don't believe in unions."
Plenty of other posters on these forums have said it:
IF YOU WANT A CAREER, AND YOU BELIEVE IN THE INDUSTRY, STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS.
www.afap.org.au
(03) 9699 4200
We must all start to look out for each other. START TODAY.
That said, of all of us reading this now how many are menbers of the AFAP? How many of us have even ASKED? I'll start off - no I am not a member but I have rung their office and a membership pack is in the mail to me now. I'm joining as soon as I get it.
Very few pilots come from "blue collar" backgrounds and I'd bet London to a brick that most of us think like engine out in saying "I'm not pro-union either". Many of us in our late 20's and early 30's remember the union activism of the early 1980's and we still have negative connotations with Union politics. But a Union doesn't have to be all red-ragging trotsky-ites; the AFAP is a professional association as well as protecting your rights.
I have just ended a 2 1/2 year exile from Aviation, spent in underground Coal mining. I had been flying Chieftains (Chief Pilot, Science degree, ATPLs) for $650 pw (gross) plus CIR renewals. I moved to an underground mining job (zero experience, zero qualifications, zero interest, but I can lift hevvy fings) and membership of the CFMEU on $1,150 per week (gross). THAT is the benefit of sticking together. In the 1970s these guys were paid the equivalent of $400 pw.
If you are a member of the union you have some say in how it operates and behaves - it doesn't have to be another CFMEU, BLF or Wharfies union.
Similarly, membership of the union doesn't mean that you can't/won't work or that you want to make unreasonable demands on your employer. HE might justify your $250pw and no super as "just business". YOU can justify your right to a fair wage and your legal entitlements as "just business" too.
Finally, how can the union campaign effectively if all of us in GA just whinge, complain and bitch and follow it up with "but I don't believe in unions."
Plenty of other posters on these forums have said it:
IF YOU WANT A CAREER, AND YOU BELIEVE IN THE INDUSTRY, STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS.
www.afap.org.au
(03) 9699 4200
We must all start to look out for each other. START TODAY.
AFAP
I have approached the AFAP firstly by phone to discuss a legal issue and followed up with several letters.
Six months down the track the only correspondence I receive from the AFAP is a bill.
Not likely I will bother paying unless I receive a response. After all thats why I joined to start with.
Can not see theo point in being a member personally.
Six months down the track the only correspondence I receive from the AFAP is a bill.
Not likely I will bother paying unless I receive a response. After all thats why I joined to start with.
Can not see theo point in being a member personally.
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Contract what contract?
In all the years I spent in NZ I was never even offered a contract, better or worse
Splat is right, you Aussies have got it all to come, by comparison to the sh!t pit that is kiwi GA
Working for free / minimum wage / pay for hours flown only is the accepted norm over there ... and if you don't wanna work for $20 a week there's 10 other guys that will
Hey splat mate, I gotta tell you though, only been in the UK for 6 months and I got recommended for my command upgrade up here this week, $NZ120grand for a poxy 19 seat t/prop captain here I come ... oh yeah and D.M. is into Easyjet now and that's another big pay rise for him ...
I'll see all you boys again in 10 years time when me and DM are squillionaires that own most of Tauranga, and I come back and buy you-know-where and sack you-know-who just because I feel like it
Do I miss New Zealand? About as much as a plate of ham sandwiches at a Bar Mitzvah
In all the years I spent in NZ I was never even offered a contract, better or worse
Splat is right, you Aussies have got it all to come, by comparison to the sh!t pit that is kiwi GA
Working for free / minimum wage / pay for hours flown only is the accepted norm over there ... and if you don't wanna work for $20 a week there's 10 other guys that will
Hey splat mate, I gotta tell you though, only been in the UK for 6 months and I got recommended for my command upgrade up here this week, $NZ120grand for a poxy 19 seat t/prop captain here I come ... oh yeah and D.M. is into Easyjet now and that's another big pay rise for him ...
I'll see all you boys again in 10 years time when me and DM are squillionaires that own most of Tauranga, and I come back and buy you-know-where and sack you-know-who just because I feel like it
Do I miss New Zealand? About as much as a plate of ham sandwiches at a Bar Mitzvah
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I am a member of the AFAP for more than 25 years. On 3 occasions I needed their help. I got the same result as mentioned by grrowler. They write letters but they can't / won't enforce anything. It makes me wonder why I persist.
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What an interesting topic! Keep it going.
I too have felt the sharp end of the arseholism circulating in the industry. As a member of the AFAP I believe that all member's should do the right thing and assert their rights, as should the Federation meet it's obligations.
I am having a hard time getting a job because of the unreasonable actions of my previous employer. The good thing is that I will get what I am entitled too and be rejected by the employer's that are also unreasonable.
What comes around, keeps going around!
U2
I too have felt the sharp end of the arseholism circulating in the industry. As a member of the AFAP I believe that all member's should do the right thing and assert their rights, as should the Federation meet it's obligations.
I am having a hard time getting a job because of the unreasonable actions of my previous employer. The good thing is that I will get what I am entitled too and be rejected by the employer's that are also unreasonable.
What comes around, keeps going around!
U2
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