500 foot turns - why?
Thread Starter
500 foot turns - why?
We must maintain runway track till 500 feet agl before turning unless at a controlled aerodrome where ATC permits us to do otherwise.
Why? if we can do it in CTA, then it must not be unsafe per se, so why can't we do it (legally) wherever we like, especially at some poxy ala in the middle of the desert?
Why? if we can do it in CTA, then it must not be unsafe per se, so why can't we do it (legally) wherever we like, especially at some poxy ala in the middle of the desert?
Why would you want to turn before 500 ft ?
You turn outside the protection of the surveyed splay, you put yourself in a position where people don't expect top find you - traffic inbound would look up the extended centreline to try and find you.
Whats more the pax don't normally like being treated to a thrill a minute ride.
you go and fly in an airline environment and you would not be encouraged to wander around the skies like browns cows
You turn outside the protection of the surveyed splay, you put yourself in a position where people don't expect top find you - traffic inbound would look up the extended centreline to try and find you.
Whats more the pax don't normally like being treated to a thrill a minute ride.
you go and fly in an airline environment and you would not be encouraged to wander around the skies like browns cows
Thread Starter
Surveyed Splays?
Half the places in my logbook would never have seen a surveyor, and I am sure that a lot of pilots around have a higher percentage than that.
Yes for 5700+ kgs, that's fine for CAO 20.7.1/FAR 25 performance, but for a little Cessna or light twin?
Hey NAP - check ya PM's!
Half the places in my logbook would never have seen a surveyor, and I am sure that a lot of pilots around have a higher percentage than that.
Yes for 5700+ kgs, that's fine for CAO 20.7.1/FAR 25 performance, but for a little Cessna or light twin?
Hey NAP - check ya PM's!
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Because stallie, that could pave the way for you having waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much fun, especially in the 200!!
I;m sure the surveyors have been out to Eucla lately!!
WRW
I;m sure the surveyors have been out to Eucla lately!!
WRW
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For safety's sake, Stallie... that rule is designed to keep you honest AND alive...
Honest, in that ATC may approve an early turn due operational reasons, but it doesn't happen all that often. When there is no "3rd Party" (ATC), such as your 400-odd metre collection of rocks and sand out at Wheelmebarrowback ALA, the decision is taken out of your hands and legislated... for safety's sake.
RWY surveys & etc aside, i believe this rule is more designed towards losing a motor once you're airborne... singles speak for themselves- you'll be making yourself very busy trying to recover from the turn while finding a spot to land... and in a light twin your performance on one is negligible at best, let alone after losing the "low" motor in a turn at low altitude/low airspeed and trying to recover to the correct attitude battling an increased Vmca and making all that extra drag in the process. Really is best to keep as much of the odds in you favour right?
Me thinks you knew all that already... but you did ask
HJ
Honest, in that ATC may approve an early turn due operational reasons, but it doesn't happen all that often. When there is no "3rd Party" (ATC), such as your 400-odd metre collection of rocks and sand out at Wheelmebarrowback ALA, the decision is taken out of your hands and legislated... for safety's sake.
RWY surveys & etc aside, i believe this rule is more designed towards losing a motor once you're airborne... singles speak for themselves- you'll be making yourself very busy trying to recover from the turn while finding a spot to land... and in a light twin your performance on one is negligible at best, let alone after losing the "low" motor in a turn at low altitude/low airspeed and trying to recover to the correct attitude battling an increased Vmca and making all that extra drag in the process. Really is best to keep as much of the odds in you favour right?
Me thinks you knew all that already... but you did ask
HJ
Bottums Up
The rule could also be designed to reduce the chance of experiencing the illusion of slipping or skidding in the turn that can occur if the crosswind component is high enough, and being relatively close to the ground.
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Loaded, not all aircraft will reach 500 ft.
So it is really a bit academic.
Ag, turn after T/O not below 100 ft, under certain circumstances.
Which is damn useful if your A/C will not outclimb obstacles.
Fly safe
So it is really a bit academic.
Ag, turn after T/O not below 100 ft, under certain circumstances.
Which is damn useful if your A/C will not outclimb obstacles.
Fly safe
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Watching a student one day, heard tower tell her, "request eairly turn" followed by "turn now" she did comply, all at an altitude of around 200ft. all to get a following twin away. wasnt that impressed.
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Why Not?
How about engine failure! Now do you really want to be in a turn at 200ft agl whilst number 2 has a bit of rest. The answer is simply No! Following engine failure in a twin you need to climb as high as you can man! MAC height I think I recall, then commence a turn for landing. In a single, 500 ft gives you a chance, but imagine being at 200ft agl when it quits, your in a turn and fire and smoke rage past your face, now you calmly remember I'm in a turn and descending more rapidly than when wings level. Plus wheres the landing area, in a turn you create more blind spots thereby narrowing down your options. So with this in mind, I think safety here is the priority, then customer service, lets keep the passengers coming back.
If aerobatics is what gets your fella partying then do it, in a controlled environment. People will pay to see you turn at 50ft, actually the closer to the ground the better. But paying passengers and freight, not all of them will come back.
If aerobatics is what gets your fella partying then do it, in a controlled environment. People will pay to see you turn at 50ft, actually the closer to the ground the better. But paying passengers and freight, not all of them will come back.
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Kelly Slater:
Is that quote correct? Do you have a reference for it (not that I'm doubting you, it's just that I never knew that before)? Best that I correct any bad habits to stay legal before someone from "Big Brother" decides to yank my licence.
Thanks
A request for an early turn in CTA is a request for a turn at 500'. You are not permitted to turn earlier.
Thanks
QSK, the advice is correct. It came from CASA in Darwin many years ago. Darwin Tower had the habit of asking for early turns which everyone took as an invite to turn as soon as the weels were on the way up; good fun but the poorest of airmanship. You may not be able to find a reference for this but nor are you likely to find a reference allowing you to turn below 500' except perhaps for a specific SID.
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Have to agree with kelly re the early turn request from tower. We had the chief controller of the tower across for a bit of a getting to know you session the other week and he confirmed that an early turn meant as soon as 500ft agl had been reached before commencing the turn. He wasn't all that happy at the way that some of his juniors would use the request to try and speed things up expecting us to turn below that height. However to try and keep traffic flowing well it was decided that upon an early left/right turn request, an aircraft was to 'drift' in the appropriate direction and then everyone would be happy. But max rates at 200ft agl a definite no no despite how much fun they are!
Thread Starter
CAR 166
I fail to see how this could be interpreted any other way than ATC can permit you to turn lower than 500'. Sounds like CASA interpretations of law again. One FOI's opinion does not override law.
Interesting observations!
CS
....(g) after take-off, not alter heading from the take-off heading at a height less than 500 feet above the terrain unless air traffic control directs the alteration or unless the alteration is necessary due to the terrain.
Interesting observations!
CS
Sprucegoose
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I was once told by an ATCer that an early right/left turn only clears you to turn prior to the upwind threshold, but still required to be above 500ft.
But of course I have never been able to find this in the publications.
Anyone got a reference?
Cheers, HH.
But of course I have never been able to find this in the publications.
Anyone got a reference?
Cheers, HH.
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what about when u get told to go-around due some mug on the runway....and they say "ABC when ready turn crosswind follow the twin turning base now."
CAR 166 says "after take-off, not alter heading from the take-off heading at a height less than 500 feet above the terrain, if the alteration was not:
(i) directed by air traffic control; or
(ii) necessary due to the terrain."
do ATC have more detail as to when they can direct this early deviation???
also i take it when told "when ready" that i can turn when im ready at any altitude so that i can fit back into the traffic pattern, of course this is at a GAAP, YSBK to be precise.
CAR 166 says "after take-off, not alter heading from the take-off heading at a height less than 500 feet above the terrain, if the alteration was not:
(i) directed by air traffic control; or
(ii) necessary due to the terrain."
do ATC have more detail as to when they can direct this early deviation???
also i take it when told "when ready" that i can turn when im ready at any altitude so that i can fit back into the traffic pattern, of course this is at a GAAP, YSBK to be precise.
CS,
I would have to agree with you, as ATC can issue you with a SID like DirectAnywhere has said that directs you to turn below 500 ft.
Also company surveyed OEI departures may require a turn at 400 ft before the aircraft accelerates to reduce the turn radius, and therefore the associated splay.
Float planes taking off in rivers can turn below 500 ft to avoid a bank, helicopters operating into city heli pads can do it, oil rigs etc etc.
Aircraft for CAR 166 means "any machine or craft that can derive support in the atmosphere from the reactions of the air.", not just aeroplanes, likewise an aerodrome does not have to have a long black runway.
Obviously this does not apply to DoD, Customs, or Police aircraft.
I would have to agree with you, as ATC can issue you with a SID like DirectAnywhere has said that directs you to turn below 500 ft.
Also company surveyed OEI departures may require a turn at 400 ft before the aircraft accelerates to reduce the turn radius, and therefore the associated splay.
Float planes taking off in rivers can turn below 500 ft to avoid a bank, helicopters operating into city heli pads can do it, oil rigs etc etc.
Aircraft for CAR 166 means "any machine or craft that can derive support in the atmosphere from the reactions of the air.", not just aeroplanes, likewise an aerodrome does not have to have a long black runway.
Obviously this does not apply to DoD, Customs, or Police aircraft.