500 foot turns - why?
Have recieved a request from EN twr to turn left within airfield boundary whilst using 26. Understand it had something to do with ML airspace using 17. Turn height was about 300 agl
Also seem to remember the use of the word "expedite". Also witnessed same departing the old BN 13 (I think) abeam tower, got call ELE make left turn to 360 climb to yadaa yadaa expedite....most amazing view of tower as apex of perfectly expedited turn
Do not know if this term is still in use. Doesnt show in AIP.
regards
Mark
Also seem to remember the use of the word "expedite". Also witnessed same departing the old BN 13 (I think) abeam tower, got call ELE make left turn to 360 climb to yadaa yadaa expedite....most amazing view of tower as apex of perfectly expedited turn
Do not know if this term is still in use. Doesnt show in AIP.regards
Mark
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I went up to 500ft once.............. got a blood nose and really scared. I reckon I'll leave that all up to you folk.
Seems to be a bit of a grey area...I remember when doing low level circuits at a GAAP that I was told to conduct a low level circuit, early left turn approved, I questioned the early left, and the tower guy said that unless u have an early turn approved the whole low level must be done at 500 feet AGL, the wording used for how low you could be was as soon as safety permits.....IE i guess u can do it as low as you want if you are approved, just don't go sticking your wing into things.....in my younger stupider days I remember 200 feet turns weren't out of the question, was great fun, probably not the smartest in hindsight!
Grey is the Operative Term
Seems that if ATC direct you to do so, then a turn below 500 is perfectly legal.
If you are by yourself, on a long country airport, in perfect weather, nothing amiss - then it's 500ft. CAR 166 applies.
However, you should also consider CAR 157, which I'd think overrules CAR 166, insofar as it introduces all the reasons you can fly low. This would probably be applicable to the take-off situation too.
I think you could make a good defence for a low turn after t/o, based on phenomena such as squalls, dust devils, birds, smoke affecting in flight vis, noise sensitive areas ahead, etc. You can't always see these things until you are airborne.
The problem I see is where students or low time PPL's are asked to expedite a low turn - something they've not been taught. If it's in a 20 kt wind, then the problem of the slip illusion etc makes it a risky instruction.
happy days
Seems that if ATC direct you to do so, then a turn below 500 is perfectly legal.
If you are by yourself, on a long country airport, in perfect weather, nothing amiss - then it's 500ft. CAR 166 applies.
However, you should also consider CAR 157, which I'd think overrules CAR 166, insofar as it introduces all the reasons you can fly low. This would probably be applicable to the take-off situation too.
I think you could make a good defence for a low turn after t/o, based on phenomena such as squalls, dust devils, birds, smoke affecting in flight vis, noise sensitive areas ahead, etc. You can't always see these things until you are airborne.
The problem I see is where students or low time PPL's are asked to expedite a low turn - something they've not been taught. If it's in a 20 kt wind, then the problem of the slip illusion etc makes it a risky instruction.
happy days
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why would you want to turn below 500 feet? especially with a few people on board and some fuel, your just asking for trouble.
it happens too many times that cowboys get carried away and do ridiculous AoB turns to close to the ground. Your only saving a minute or two max in commencing a turn an extra 100 feet early or so. i would prefer to arrive one minute later but be alive and have the room to try and save the plane after an engine failur on up wind.
but each to their own
it happens too many times that cowboys get carried away and do ridiculous AoB turns to close to the ground. Your only saving a minute or two max in commencing a turn an extra 100 feet early or so. i would prefer to arrive one minute later but be alive and have the room to try and save the plane after an engine failur on up wind.
but each to their own
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I'm sensing a bit of sibling rivalry between the Approach brothers!!??
I launched otta Mitta Mitta in a Navajo once.........I didn't have time to look up this stuff in the books before the hills ahead loomed large. But I'm sure glad I didn't do anything illegal!
Now I best be off to the fridge for a cold calming ale!
I launched otta Mitta Mitta in a Navajo once.........I didn't have time to look up this stuff in the books before the hills ahead loomed large. But I'm sure glad I didn't do anything illegal!
Now I best be off to the fridge for a cold calming ale!
Dangerous? It doesn't seem to be dangerous in the UK where they've been allowed since Sopwith was a lad. Why would it be more dangerous in Oz?
Similarly the rigid circuit pattern/3 legs of the circuit used in Oz compared to the UK.
Similarly the rigid circuit pattern/3 legs of the circuit used in Oz compared to the UK.
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NDB,
I reckon the most dangerous thing is that you've never tried it!
Low flying is great fun and can be done safely and legally.
Heaps of people make their entire living below 500ft. Grab one of them, chuck them in the seat beside you and you'll have a blast while improving your flying, you'll be a seafer pilot too because when you have to turn at 100ft one day it won't freak you out.
The other thing is that sometimes the chances of surviving an engine failure on upwind increase by turning early, ie straight out over a croc filled mangrove patch as opposed to an early (low AoB) turn over a nice flat paddock with a cow and daisies and stuff like that.
Off to practice my inverted approaches like the irresponsible crazy I am,
cjam
I reckon the most dangerous thing is that you've never tried it!
Low flying is great fun and can be done safely and legally.
Heaps of people make their entire living below 500ft. Grab one of them, chuck them in the seat beside you and you'll have a blast while improving your flying, you'll be a seafer pilot too because when you have to turn at 100ft one day it won't freak you out.
The other thing is that sometimes the chances of surviving an engine failure on upwind increase by turning early, ie straight out over a croc filled mangrove patch as opposed to an early (low AoB) turn over a nice flat paddock with a cow and daisies and stuff like that.
Off to practice my inverted approaches like the irresponsible crazy I am,
cjam
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cjam
This is slightly cr@p and also a little off the point of the original question! Admittedly NDB is being a little silly when saying he has never turned below 500' trying to take the piss out of me, haha, im sure he has. Low flying can be done safely and legally, correct, but this thread is more talking about after take-off. In that condition of flight when we are low and slow and just starting to accelerate away from the ground with, gear might have just come up or be retracting and we are nose up; and in a twin engine aircraft we dont really want to be banking too low that it jeopardises our chance of getting performance out of our aicraft if we have an engine failure before we end up back on the deck on our belly with little time to do anything!!! But as you say rather end up in a field than a croc infested swamp, i think we can say that comes under terrain in CAR 166....go for your life and turn.
but we could go on for ages about this topic, depends on what aircraft you are flying etc etc etc as to whether it is safe to be turning ......... and i guess what are the chances of an engine failure just after take-off, slim to none i suppose.
Tinstaafl,
I suppose it isnt as such dangerous, but an unnecessary risk almost, its nice to have that safety buffer isnt it. So if something does go wrong there is more time to get performance and even if going in is unstoppable then we might be in the best possible position. CASA are mongrels for safety buffers which is a good thing.
I reckon the most dangerous thing is that you've never tried it! Low flying is great fun and can be done safely and legally.
but we could go on for ages about this topic, depends on what aircraft you are flying etc etc etc as to whether it is safe to be turning ......... and i guess what are the chances of an engine failure just after take-off, slim to none i suppose.
Tinstaafl,
Why would it be more dangerous in Oz?
Last edited by Curved Approach; 1st Feb 2004 at 04:40.
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I have near 6000hrs and 5000 would be below 100ft. I have had three forced landings and not scratched an airplane.
low flying is not any more dangerous than flight level flying if one takes the right attitude and approach to it.
A little bit of training and some risk management and its as safe as houses. lets face it, your airplane doesn't know the differance between 100, 300 or 500 feet.
I am only refering to single engine aircraft in this statement. when I fly my twin, I get as high as I can as soon as I can.
low flying is not any more dangerous than flight level flying if one takes the right attitude and approach to it.
A little bit of training and some risk management and its as safe as houses. lets face it, your airplane doesn't know the differance between 100, 300 or 500 feet.
I am only refering to single engine aircraft in this statement. when I fly my twin, I get as high as I can as soon as I can.
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wizard,
yeh tru tru but climbing away after take-off relatively slow and if we add turning to this it does ..... granted this is more so for larger aircraft as you say in your twin you get as high as you can as soon as you can.
but sure what are the chances of being put in a situation at that stage of flight just after take-off. It does happen though!
your airplane doesn't know the differance between 100, 300 or 500 feet.
but sure what are the chances of being put in a situation at that stage of flight just after take-off. It does happen though!
Wiz wrote...
Yeah, but I bet you have a harder time cleaning the heap more bugs you'd cop off it Wiz.... 
Geez the Territory has been inundated with grasshoppers over the past few weeks... bug-gers to clean off!
your airplane doesn't know the differance between 100, 300 or 500 feet.
Geez the Territory has been inundated with grasshoppers over the past few weeks... bug-gers to clean off!
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Yeah, I'm having a drama with the grasshopper mash at the moment too. you know that theres a problem when the mash slides off the cowl in lumps as big as a pizza.
